kissdbyfire Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 As much as I hate that little plot-stealing shit, I do NOT want Ollybecue. Neither do I. I want Ghost to eat him. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Neither do I. I want Ghost to eat him. :P :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 so what is your plan then? how are you going to make a better show? Who is going to pay for it? How will you develop your strategy for condensing the material sufficiently? How are you going to manage the logistics of the various locations? The diverse storylines when episodes are managed by different directors? etc.? What? You can't answer? Then you are complaining without a plan, just as Dany in that speech is complaining about the state of things without a plan. You're really asking me to compile five years of book purist suggestions and compile them in this thread? You've been here a while Hippocras, you're lying through your teeth if you're truly saying that you haven't seen a lot of in depth outlines from myself and others about how to improve the show. There are whole essays on this stuff. You just happen to disagree with them. But: First it would be good to actually plot out the whole outline from season 1 (at least until the end of published material). D+D clearly outline things mostly season by season, which is why they drop plot lines like hot potatoes and leave annoying contradictory references like Tommen's age and Cersei's black haired kid. Adapting Feast/Dance would just be a matter of trimming out the actual fat - stuff like Nimble Dick and the like - and spreading the material over Season's 4 and 5. They already did this to an extent with S4 being a SOS/AFFC mix, but they could have done a lot more. S4 could contain: > Kings Landing > Meereen > The Wall > Brienne's Quest > The Vale > Bran > Arya (and Braavos) > The Iron Isles S5 could contain: > Kings Landing > Meereen > Winterfell > The Wall > Dorne > Braavos > Tyrion's travels Leaving out Bran and possibly Sansa as well, with the odd micro-story line as well - a few scenes of Jaime in the Riverlands, a few scenes of Aegon and Joncon after Tyrion leaves. That number of plot lines is the same number of plots as most seasons of the show had and indeed every plot I've highlighted for season 5 had some equivalent in the actual show. A big problem in the show was the large amounts of filler in S4. Stannis in Braavos, Asha vs. Ramsay (all of Theon's story really, he could have sat out a season), Craster's Keep. These things all took up valuable time with little purpose. That space could have provided a little more room to adapt the Iron Islands in Season 4. Additionally S4 suffered from D+D forcing the battle at the Wall into one big episode 9 event. This should have been a mid/mid-late season event in episodes 5-7, allowing the aftermath to play out to include Jon's election in S4. As it was, they had to rush through the tail end of Jon's SOS material in S5 which in turn made less space for other events that season. All because they wanted a cool event in Episode 9. Season 5 was incredibly devoid of action. There was plenty of space in the early episodes to include more material from the books. Much of what happened in S5 could have just been switched out for better writing which costs no extra money to produce. Dorne for example - while I would have made Dorne a focal point of S5, even being more meagre you could mostly just swap out each scene in Dorne for an actually good scene and you'd have something pretty meaty. Hardhome was a big flaw of S5 as well. Yes, yes it was a cool action sequence. But it served very little purpose beyond that and no doubt cost an exorbitant amount of money. Imagine the time and money spent on Hardhome spread throughout the entire season? I don't need to know the exact logistics of the show's budget to know that removing or scaling down that sequence would have saved resources elsewhere. And as for those exact logistics? You're right I don't know them. Neither do you for that matter so you're really in no place to talk about them. But nothing I've suggested is outside the scale of the show and I've actually suggested things that would patently cost less money. And you'll read all that and just mindlessly repeat "D+D work in mysterious ways" so I'm not really sure why I bothered. But it would be much appreciated if in kind, you took each of the things that D+D changed from the books, and outline to me why those changes where completely unavoidable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 No, that is not what I am asking at all. Please actually read. What I said was, the speech that we were discussing is simply a character moment for Dany (who is an ideologue), in which she makes a statement of fact: that the endless cycle of dominance is pointless and destructive. Just as you endlessly complain about the show without having a specific plan for actually implementing a better show, Dany was complaining about the state of things in Westeros without having an actual plan for making things better in Westeros. Just like you, (and all the other constant nitpickers on the forums) Dany thinks that just her being in charge will be sufficient to make it better because she wants it to be better. You complain endlessly about everything, and make the claim you could make a better show, which is really a very safe claim for you because you have no intention of ever actually trying to do this. So you will never actually have to face the fact that you too would have failings, probably serious ones, and would very likely fail to make a better show if you tried because you have far too narrow, self-centred, and impractical a concept of what is involving in making such a show. I am not asking you to round up the suggestions, because I know for a fact than none of them are actual, implementable plans for actually bringing an excellent show to air. All they are is individual, scattered fixes for one particular problem here or there that the vast majority of viewers do not even consider to be a problem. So go ahead and fix your individual problems here or there, and see if you still end up with a show that is this immersive, this visually stunning, this level of acting and directing with as few directing and acting mistakes etc. And see if you are still breathing after 5 seasons because of the insane amount of work it takes to put together all of the moving pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 No, that is not what I am asking at all. Please actually read. What I said was, the speech that we were discussing is simply a character moment for Dany (who is an ideologue), in which she makes a statement of fact: that the endless cycle of dominance is pointless and destructive. Just as you endlessly complain about the show without having a specific plan for actually implementing a better show, Dany was complaining about the state of things in Westeros without having an actual plan for making things better in Westeros. Just like you, (and all the other constant nitpickers on the forums) Dany thinks that just her being in charge will be sufficient to make it better because she wants it to be better. You complain endlessly about everything, and make the claim you could make a better show, which is really a very safe claim for you because you have no intention of ever actually trying to do this. So you will never actually have to face the fact that you too would have failings, probably serious ones, and would very likely fail to make a better show if you tried because you have far too narrow, self-centred, and impractical a concept of what is involving in making such a show. I am not asking you to round up the suggestions, because I know for a fact than none of them are actual, implementable plans for actually bringing an excellent show to air. All they are is individual, scattered fixes for one particular problem here or there that the vast majority of viewers do not even consider to be a problem. So go ahead and fix your individual problems here or there, and see if you still end up with a show that is this immersive, this visually stunning, this level of acting and directing with as few directing and acting mistakes etc. And see if you are still breathing after 5 seasons because of the insane amount of work it takes to put together all of the moving pieces. I don't know where you're getting this idea that to criticise the show we need to have our own complete alternate version of the show. Book purists do not have a "narrow, self-centred or impractical" idea for what the show should be. Everyone I know on this forum who calls themselves a book purist knows that changes had to be made, have accepted or even loved many changes and have suggested big changes themselves. Once upon at time I suggested getting rid of Yunkai for example. And make no mistake I would have cut a lot of AFFC/ADWD. That is what the entire book purist mind set is based on - we are acutely aware that changes must be made which is why we are so concerned with why changes must be made, and ergo can see when changes are unnecessary. All we're asking is that things only be changed because of logistical difficulties, not because D+D thought something was cool. Why is that too much to ask? That the main plots, themes and characters remain the same? If that is a narrow minded approach then honestly D+D should have just pitched a different show with an original IP. Your mindset on the other hand, the apologist mindset, is to go no further than "changes must be made" and use that as a blanket excuse for everything. You can't satisfactorily explain why each individual change was inevitable. You have a point that the show is a huge beast with a lot of moving parts and I've never said that I'd be up to coordinating something on that scale. I don't fault D+D as producers, they are just terrible, terrible writers. If I'm being kind I would say that they're trying their best but just aren't up to the task. The production schedule is very tight, writing is no doubt rushed. When the show is this bad though, there's only so much slack I'm going to give. They're supposed to be professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Amun Ra Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 No, that is not what I am asking at all. Please actually read. What I said was, the speech that we were discussing is simply a character moment for Dany (who is an ideologue), in which she makes a statement of fact: that the endless cycle of dominance is pointless and destructive. Just as you endlessly complain about the show without having a specific plan for actually implementing a better show, Dany was complaining about the state of things in Westeros without having an actual plan for making things better in Westeros. Just like you, (and all the other constant nitpickers on the forums) Dany thinks that just her being in charge will be sufficient to make it better because she wants it to be better. You complain endlessly about everything, and make the claim you could make a better show, which is really a very safe claim for you because you have no intention of ever actually trying to do this. So you will never actually have to face the fact that you too would have failings, probably serious ones, and would very likely fail to make a better show if you tried because you have far too narrow, self-centred, and impractical a concept of what is involving in making such a show. I am not asking you to round up the suggestions, because I know for a fact than none of them are actual, implementable plans for actually bringing an excellent show to air. All they are is individual, scattered fixes for one particular problem here or there that the vast majority of viewers do not even consider to be a problem. So go ahead and fix your individual problems here or there, and see if you still end up with a show that is this immersive, this visually stunning, this level of acting and directing with as few directing and acting mistakes etc. And see if you are still breathing after 5 seasons because of the insane amount of work it takes to put together all of the moving pieces. This is something that apparently doesn't matter at all on these forums or when rating the show. The same is with entertainment factor. I would never NEVER give an episode 1 star, even if the story makes no sense. The acting and visualizations are so good on its own that the episodes automaticly earn several stars. My current lowest rating is six stars (three episodes and none of them in season 5) and if you checked Elio's ratings, he also never gave episode less than six stars (although different episodes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Shireen Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 1. Danaerys will unite and lead the Dothraki who will follow her because her rising from the funeral pyre with dragons has become legend. 2. The death of Myrcella will bring the house of Tyrell and Lannister to war with Dorne 3. Dorne will unite with Danaerys to fight the Lannisters and Tyrells. Using their boats to import the Dothraki and Unsullied to Westeros to fight. 4. The idea to ally Dany with Dorne will be Tyrion's 5.. As this is occurring the South, the White Walkers will descend upon the North which is in chaos and they will take out the Boltons, or at least Ramsay Bolton. 6.. The remaining Brothers of the Watch will burn Jon Snow's body from which unbeknownst to them, he'll emerge. With white hair. Targaryan style, but of course Jon will have no idea of his own identity or what this all means. 6. During this time of confusion, Mance Rayder will attack the remaining Brothers of the Watch causing the survivors to scatter. 7. Mance and the Wildings will ally with Jon Targaryan. 8. In Old Town, Sam will piece together the mystery of Jon's parentage and start back to find Jon and tell him of his true identity. 9. Melisandre will be manipulating Jon meanwhile in order to convince him he is Azor Ahai, rather than Targaryan and try to convince him to overthrow King's Landing to take out the Septon and High Sparrow to establish Rhllor as the one true God of the Seven Kingdoms. 10. She will try to convince him to do this because she believes it is necessary first to do that in order to defeat the Others. But she's wrong. 11. Only Dany with her dragons united with Jon can defeat the Others and drive back the night. 12. Jon is going to meet Dany in King's Landing as they both are trying to take it over for different reasons. In season 7, Dany and Jon unite to defeat the Others. Melisandre and Dany battle to win the confidence of Jon Targaryan and Sam finally unites with Jon and Dany and reveals his true identity to them both which will lead to the death of Melisandre. Below here's why..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Shireen Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Here's why..... 1. because in the books it's the Khal's brother that's leading the tribe that surrounds Dany in the grass sea. 2. because Cersei is going to go batcrap crazy when she learns about Myrcella's death by Sand Snake and that's what the Sand Snakes wanted. 3. Because Dorne has always been more aligned with House Targaryan, they were never defeated as a kingdom, Unbent, Unbroken, and the marriage of Elia to Aerys was a compromise to broker a peace. And Dorne is the gateway to Westeros from Essos. Not to mention, Dorne holds the Lannister's responsible for Elia's murder. Dany needs boats and Dorne needs allies. 4. Because Tyrion knows all about the allegiance of Dorne to the Targaryans and he's one of Dany's advisors. 5.Because the Boltons are the closest organized resistance to the Others at this point. The other houses in the North are not as strong or are scattered and lost. And because Ramsay needs to die. 6.Because it mimics Dany's arc and bodies are always burned up North. And Jon is L+R=J. 7. Mance doesn't have any better choices. 8. It's either Bran or Sam who will figure it out. Probably both. Sam is more likely to unite with Jon. Bran will probably follow it all through the weirwoods and come through at a critical time by warging a dragon because he'll never walk again but he will fly. Bran is season seven stuff though, yo. 9. Because Melisandre believes her own BS. And GRRM says there aren't any Gods in the books, only believers. So it's a red herring. Get it? Red Herring? 10. Because if he doesn't go South, Jon will never meet Dany. Melisandre is only the mechanism that will convince Jon to go South. After that happens she and Rh'llor are irrelevant to the plot. 11. Because they are the Song of Ice and Fire. 12. For all the reasons given, they'll meet in the South. Melisandre is going to do her Melisandre thing and sow seeds of confusion with her prophecy, but Sam with his Science-y book learning stuff is going to be the one with the information that puts her on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 1- Jaime, Brienne and Reek will be there only in body, never in soul. Same for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VenezuelanLord Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Haters gonna hate, I prefer the books, but absolutely enjoy the show, I can't say I'm OK with some changes, but some others did make sense for the medium they are working with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingStannisFan Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 What they did to King Stannis and Ser Barristan is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Neither do I. I want Ghost to eat him. :P :bowdown: +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Amun Ra Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Haters gonna hate, I prefer the books, but absolutely enjoy the show, I can't say I'm OK with some changes, but some others did make sense for the medium they are working with Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khione Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Haters gonna hate, I prefer the books, but absolutely enjoy the show, I can't say I'm OK with some changes, but some others did make sense for the medium they are working with The joke's on them. It's not like they're wasting anyone's time but their own by continuing to watch something they hate/find ridiculous etc. Staying away from/ignoring things one can't stand seems like a reasonable thing to do. Perhaps some of them like the feeling of frustration, need a good rant on a regular basis to get them through the day and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Amun Ra Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 The joke's on them. It's not like they're wasting anyone's time but their own by continuing to watch something they hate/find ridiculous etc. Staying away from/ignoring things one can't stand seems like a reasonable thing to do. Perhaps some of them like the feeling of frustration, need a good rant on a regular basis to get them through the day and so on. That's something I have been telling all the time. It's called hate-watching and some of the users actually confirmed that they enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 The joke's on them. It's not like they're wasting anyone's time but their own by continuing to watch something they hate/find ridiculous etc. Staying away from/ignoring things one can't stand seems like a reasonable thing to do. Perhaps some of them like the feeling of frustration, need a good rant on a regular basis to get them through the day and so on. Hey, I've never made a secret of it - I find ranting fun. And I find analysis fun. Figuring out exactly what D+D are thinking and exactly what the implications of their work are is fascinating. And the R&R threads are a nice little community. If I felt like I was wasting my time I wouldn't be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 This is something that apparently doesn't matter at all on these forums or when rating the show. The same is with entertainment factor. I would never NEVER give an episode 1 star, even if the story makes no sense. The acting and visualizations are so good on its own that the episodes automaticly earn several stars. My current lowest rating is six stars (three episodes and none of them in season 5) and if you checked Elio's ratings, he also never gave episode less than six stars (although different episodes). I think pretty much everyone acknowledges that the show is very beautiful and that most of the acting is stellar. I wouldn't call it immersive, the show breaks my immersion several times per episode nowadays. But yes it's pretty to look at. That's nice but it doesn't make up for the show's deficiencies. And rating inflation is a wider matter. These days 6/10 is considered fairly poor and anything less is scathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khione Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 That's something I have been telling all the time. It's called hate-watching and some of the users actually confirmed that they enjoy it. Well, that sounds troll-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 That's something I have been telling all the time. It's called hate-watching and some of the users actually confirmed that they enjoy it. Yes I've seen some out and out bad shows in my time, and some very good ones. GoT is clearly in the very good category. Its not always perfect and as an adaptation of a book I think it can come unstuck, but at the same time its easy to appreciate it on its own terms. Honestly, anyone whos had to put themselves under the torture of watching something like Walking Dead or Lost or seeing how bad BattleStar Galatica got should simply be thanking D&D every day for the quality that they deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Hey, I've never made a secret of it - I find ranting fun. And I find analysis fun. Figuring out exactly what D+D are thinking and exactly what the implications of their work are is fascinating. And the R&R threads are a nice little community. If I felt like I was wasting my time I wouldn't be here. You are dead wrong about what they are thinking almost all of the time. You approach the show with the assumption that they are assholes and that colours your entire interpretation of everything you see. If you actually for one moment stopped to think how well you might manage writing scripts while also managing every other detail of such an insanely complex undertaking you would be at least a small step closer to actually doing what you say you are doing. But instead you keep insisting that somehow the writing can be separated out into a self-contained box, and regardless of all of the other things D&D have to manage to bring this show to air, publicize it, explain it to the press, etc., they should still be able to deliver genius level scripts in about 1/50th of the amount of time GRRM has to write his books. Get over yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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