Amie V Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sorry folks, I've been at this too long tonight. Yes now my brain remembers that word is Ellia couldn't have more. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amie V Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sorry folks, I've been at this too long tonight. Yes now my brain remembers that word is Ellia couldn't have more. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amie V Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sorry folks, I've been at this too long tonight. Yes now my brain remembers that word is Ellia couldn't have more. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Is it possible Rhaegar left with Lyanna amicably? Why did this informant tell Brandon Lyanna was kidnapped and not his lord father? Rickard is a much more reasonable man and Lyanna's father. I wonder if this Informant told Brandon with the intent of creating strife between the two Houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idio Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Nt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 People gonna believe what people wanna believe. And some people just wanna believe that Rhaegar is that Prince in shining armor on a white horse. I don't neccessarily believe that he was "bad", but a moron and idiot he was. Textual evidence doesnt allow for any other conclusion. But it is useless to "debate" because for this you need open-minded, objective opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Is it possible Rhaegar left with Lyanna amicably? Why did this informant tell Brandon Lyanna was kidnapped and not his lord father? Rickard is a much more reasonable man and Lyanna's father. I wonder if this Informant told Brandon with the intent of creating strife between the two Houses?You see, you absolutely miss the essential point. To judge Rhaegar as an idiot it is not neccessary that he took Lyanna against her will, whatever that does mean consindering she was a naive 14 year old girl and he a grown man, married and father of two children. Lyanna was betrothed to one of the big 7, Rhaegar was married. Nothing good can come out of such a deed. No need to be Einstein to realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Aegon wed his sisters in a ceremony performed by their mother. This was before the seven kingdoms existed. Maegor was exiled for polygamy. He returned following his brother's death and took the throne by force. He waged war on the faith of the seven until his death. Jaehaerys ended the war his uncle started by agreeing that the Iron Throne would always support the faith of the seven.... There was no polygamy following that agreement. Where's the source for their mother marrying them? The WOIAF provides no such claim. The 7K clearly did exist at the time, or where else did the term come from? But Aegon wasn't exiled, and his marriage was accepted by the HS. It wasn't simply Maegor's actions, but Aenys's as well. The HS rebelled right after Aenys married Rhaenys to her brother Aegon. The Faith's Rebellion was when it had an army. It didn't anymore, and the HS during Aerys's reign was a puppet. The polygamy was discontinued, but there is no record of there being any law banning polygamy. Even Blackfyre loyalists claim that Aegon IV promised Daemon he could take two wives at the same time. Jaehaerys just seemed content with Alysanne. Incest, one of the real reasons for the Faith's Rebellion, was allowed to continue, and it could be argued that the Faith would allow for polygamy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sure, Aerys and Rhaella may also carry part of the blame since (most likely) fed Rhaegar the idea that he was the prophesied savior himself while he was still a child. And even when that changed - while they had no other child it was clear that Rhaegar was the one who had father the savior - or the parents of the savior - since there simply was no one else of Aerys and Rhaella's line who could do that. But a lot of the burden would certainly have been lifted from Rhaegar's shoulders after Viserys' birth. Unless he completely ignored that and continued to believe that he was the special one destined to do stuff while Viserys didn't matter at all (I'm not sure that's the case as I'm inclined to believe that Rhaegar actually believed Viserys and not Rhaenys was the other dragon head besides Aegon). But the important point with saviors/heroes in general is that usually their decisions/actions matter more than their blood. Which makes it quite likely that the prophecy didn't need some guy who deliberately tried to fulfill it. If it is a correct prophecy it will fulfill itself, and if it is bogus nothing anyone will do can fulfill it. And right now we simply have no evidence that prophecy had much to do with Rhaegar's decision to abduct Lyanna. All we know is that he felt he had to have another child. But this doesn't mean he had to conceive it with Lyanna. But even if he later had special information that this was the case - there are countless other possibilities how he could have won her hand. Challenge Robert to single combat for her hand. Arranging Robert's murder - either prior to or after his marriage to Lyanna so that he could either claim her as a maiden or a widow. The way he did doesn't suggest he cared all that much about the consequences. But even if it turns out that Jon Snow - and only Jon Snow - is the savior of the universe (and that only he can be that guy) then I'd still have difficulty crediting Rhaegar for that feat simply because I believe Jon Snow actually had a choice whether to actually do the stuff he did to save the universe or not. We see that you can abandon prophecy in this series - Daenerys ignored her destiny until the very end of ADwD when she apparently got back on track. Jon Snow certainly would never have been in a position to do stuff he is most likely going to do if he had been raised at court as Rhaegar's son (or if he had become king) simply because he'd never have learned or cared all that much about the threat of the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedstarksdetachedhead Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hes not a bard person. Just made HUGE mistakes that led to his house being destoryed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hes not a bard person. Just made HUGE mistakes that led to his house being destoryed. I mean if you want to use Snowball effect yeah, I guess. But that absolves Brandon and Aery's of way too much of the blame. Nearly everyone involved thought Brandon was complete fucking moron for running off to King's Landing and telling the crown prince to "come and die". And the action that REALLY spawned the war was Aery's being completely insane and killing/torturing Rickard and Brandon without a trial AND calling for Ned and Robert's heads. Those were three (Brandon running off, Aery's killing Rickard/Brandon, and Aery's putting a warrant on the heads of Ned/Robert) things that should have never happened regardless of Rheagar's actions and were fueled entirely off the character flaws of Brandon and Aery's. Those also happened to be more directly the catalyst for the Rebellion. That and the entire realm seeing how fucking batshit insane Aery's was at Harrenhall. It's one thing to say it wasn't the best move on Rheagar's part. It's also very overblown to lay the entire war at his feet. Especially since we don't know how complicit he was or whether Lyanna was the primary instigator of the whole affair, which is just as likely. That's also why it's sort of strange for the judgment some are making that Rheagar was a bad person. We know almost nothing about Rheagar first hand. Nobody knows how the whole Lyanna thing happened. We know that it wasn't the primary factor in starting that war though. We don't know anything about his personality. We have Robert (who we don't know the extent of which he actually knew Rheagar) hating on him, but he's also a hothead and he also lost someone he loved because of Rheagar. We have a bunch of people who were close to Rheagar telling us how fantastic and wonderful a human being he is. The neutral people that knew Rheagar generally have a favorable opinion of him, or at least don't think he was a bad guy. And the most telling party is Ned who by all rights should hate Rheagar as much as Robert does, in yet he doesn't for reasons we don't know. The one actual event we see of him is him going off about how Aegon was TPTWP while Elia was in bed, so he seemed to at the very least have a high opinion of his son and a decent relationship with his wife. On Lyanna's front we actually do know that she was not as happy about marrying Robert as she probably should have been. So most of the actual evidence of the book gives us a favorable opinion of Rheagar, doesn't give us a reason to believe he was a particularly bad father or husband (based off what we saw he loved his son and had a good relationship with his wife, especially considering the standards of that world), he was probably not the only complicit party in the whole Lyanna affair, that still shouldn't have sparked a war, his father completely lost it and really started the war, and he still died defending his kingdom during that war when he could have just fled or hid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Wow...blaming a brother because he cares for his sister, only to absolve the Prince in shining armor on his white horse from all his responsibility. Bravo, Lancerman, bravo :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 People gonna believe what people wanna believe. And some people just wanna believe that Rhaegar is evil and an idiot Fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Fixed that for you.Those quotation games are ridiculous. And not well liked here at Westeros.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destroyer of Nations Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Fixed that for you. Kind of childish, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniacmcgoo Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 First I'll admit I'm anti-Targ. (Won't go into my reasoning here) I fully admit that Lyanna may have gone willingly with Rhaegar. Young people do foolish things. Rhaegar may have kidnapped Lyanna (we don't know because we have no POV of the incident). In either case however it is a crime against Rickon Stark and a mar on the honor of House Stark and House Baratheon. (Much less so to House Baratheon than Stark however). Lyanna as the child of Lord Stark is to marry whomever Lord Stark decides would be a suitable match. Such a match had been arranged with Robert of House Baratheon. Meaning Lord Stark and Brandon had every right and in fact were honor-bound to demand justice for this crime. Brandon as a young person himself acted rashly causing his death along with those who went with Lord Stark to seek the King's Justice. This caused the rebellion which saw the end of Targ rule of Westeros. Rhaegar didn't "mistreat" his wife he just didn't respect her (both are bad, but markedly different). Robert mistreated Cersei and failed to respect her. Lyanna may have given birth to Jon, I saw the "clues" like everyone else did on the reread however it hasn't been confirmed yet so I will state I hope this theory is false. The targ line fails with Dany as she is supposedly barren now which is in my opinion for the best as a dynasty with a penchant towards insanity does not bode well for a realm, especially one facing another Long Night. Also, stop ascribing modern day morality to a book/show that is intended to portray a medieval morality. Both sides of this argument screw this up. If Lyanna wanted to go with him and he had sex with her according to medieval law he still raped her because she is the property of the head of her family. To the other side if Rickon had consented to allow Lyanna to wed Rhaegar it would not have been rape even if she were only 14 because a woman flowered is a woman grown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hes not a bard person. Just made HUGE mistakes that led to his house being destoryed. I think the one thing everyone can agree on is that Rhaegar was indeed a bard person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Also, stop ascribing modern day morality to a book/show that is intended to portray a medieval morality. Stop ascribing (what you think is) medieval morality to a book/show intended to portray fantasy morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destroyer of Nations Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I think the one thing everyone can agree on is that Rhaegar was indeed a bard person. I see what you did there. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Wow...blaming a brother because he cares for his sister, only to absolve the Prince in shining armor on his white horse from all his responsibility. Bravo, Lancerman, bravo :).Actually, Rhaegar wore black armor. Which is fitting, consider how black his heart is (if for no other reason than that he's a runaway dad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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