[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon Snow Resurrection Theory

[Eddy of the Godswood]

So, at the near the end of A Dance with Dragons, Jon is killed by his own soldiers, even those who voted for him and whom he knew relatively closely. He is absolutely dead. But that doesn't mean Melisandre can't resurrect him the same way Thoros of Myr did, As George R. R. Martin says, death isn't always permanent in the World of Ice and Fire.

Since his watch has ended, we will never see his like again, etc., he no longer has ties to the Night's Watch and can go do whatever he wants if he comes back to life. Now, obviously we all want Ghost to savage Bowen Marsh, Alliser Thorne, etc. But Jon has been unbastardized and named as heir to the North by Robb, with a promise of unbastardization by Stannis. And if the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow theory is true, then he is the rightful King by all laws of Westeros. And hence Jon Snow = Jon Blackfyre = Jon Targaryen I. Of course, the only way he could learn of his parentage is from Howland Reed, who has yet to make an appearance. Let's say all goes well and after Jon clears things up howeer he wants at Castle Black, he reaches Stannis in time before the battle (In case Stannis is defeated) and Stannis agrees to unbastardize him, unwillingly making him the rightful King. Then, somewhere down the road he meets Howland Reed, who recognizes Jon as a true and just heir to the throne and tells him the story Eddard delayed too long.

[LordImp]

Why is Jon a Blackfyre?

[Eddy of the Godswood]

Why is Jon a Blackfyre?

That's the term for a Targaryen bastard, right?

Edit: There is also the polygamy part of the theory, which I agree with but decided not to mention.

[Schnarf]

when did grrm confirm that howland will appear in twow?

[LordImp]

That's the term for a Targaryen bastard, right?

Edit: There is also the polygamy part of the theory, which I agree with but decided not to mention.

No. A Blackfyre is a person who descends from Daemon Blackfyre , Daemon who was a Targ bastard choose that name for himself.

[Eddy of the Godswood]

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up. I'm curious, what would Jon's bastard name be? Since he is not Ned's bastard woks it still be Snow?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Bastard name's depend on the region.

As a Northener he is a Snow.

If Ned had stored him away at Dorne he would Jon Sand.

E.g. Lord Brynden Rivers ("Bloodraven") was one of Aegon's (the Unvowrthy) bastards. And Rivers is simply a name for Bastards from the Riverlands, like "Bastard Walder" Rivers (of House Frey).

On a more general question, why does everbody think Jon was born out of wedlock?

Aegon the conquerer had two wives, too. Visenya and Rhaenys. And Maegor the Cruel was a legit Targaryen. He usurped the crown from his half-brother Aenys, because Aegon made Rhaenys his Queen, but he was still a Targaryen. So I don't see a reason, why Rhaegar should not have picked up this tradition.

[Eddy of the Godswood]

That is true, I think I'm siding more toward that end of the theory. I wonder if there is a septon who knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar, since if they did get married they would have had to have one.

[Howl & Read]

That is true, I think I'm siding more toward that end of the theory. I wonder if there is a septon who knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar, since if they did get married they would have had to have one.

If they got married under a weirwood tree, Bran could see it...

[Buried Treasure]

I have to ask, why do we want Ghost to savage Thorne? He left to range north of the Wall in accordance with his orders, just because he is a jerk doesn't mean he deserves to be savaged.

I also find it a little bit of wish fulfilment to think that Jon will be accepted as king by anybody, nevermind as many people as the OP suggests:

- Even if Jon was Rhaegar's trueborn son and had never sworn NW oaths he is not "the rightful king by all the laws of Westeros". The Westerosi swore themselves to Robert and his heirs years ago. Even among those inclined to support a Targaryen again, in practical terms he is contesting for support from Aegon and Dany.

- Even if some Westeros accept that Jon coming back from the dead excuses him from his oaths but leaves his inheritance claims intact, not all of them will. Opinion on the legality of this is divided on the forums, characters in the book aren't any more likely to all nod heads and agree.

- Stannis and Robb were both interested in legitimising Jon as a son of Ned and heir of the Starks. Stannis wouldn't recognise any legitimisation of Jon as an heir as Rheagar. And if Jon wanted to make a claim for the Iron Throne, then the word of the heir of the 'Usurper' would not help his claim - the Targaryen's do not recognise Stannis as a king and so do not recognise his decrees as having any legal basis.

[Methuselah]

I have to ask, why do we want Ghost to savage Thorne? He left to range north of the Wall in accordance with his orders, just because he is a jerk doesn't mean he deserves to be savaged.

I also find it a little bit of wish fulfilment to think that Jon will be accepted as king by anybody, nevermind as many people as the OP suggests:

- Even if Jon was Rhaegar's trueborn son and had never sworn NW oaths he is not "the rightful king by all the laws of Westeros". The Westerosi swore themselves to Robert and his heirs years ago. Even among those inclined to support a Targaryen again, in practical terms he is contesting for support from Aegon and Dany.

- Even if some Westeros accept that Jon coming back from the dead excuses him from his oaths but leaves his inheritance claims intact, not all of them will. Opinion on the legality of this is divided on the forums, characters in the book aren't any more likely to all nod heads and agree.

- Stannis and Robb were both interested in legitimising Jon as a son of Ned and heir of the Starks. Stannis wouldn't recognise any legitimisation of Jon as an heir as Rheagar. And if Jon wanted to make a claim for the Iron Throne, then the word of the heir of the 'Usurper' would not help his claim - the Targaryen's do not recognise Stannis as a king and so do not recognise his decrees as having any legal basis.

I think that perhaps Jon's status as Rhaegar's son (which I believe he is) is not so much leading to him becoming a universally recognized monarch under the present situation. I think it is perhaps leading to him being a leader in a conflict bigger than any dynastic struggles. Either he will lead the fight against the others or maybe against R'Hollor or heck, maybe against both. In Tolkien terminology, I think what's coming may be the passing of one age and the start of another.

The upcoming turmoil and event are likely to be of such a degree and nature that lines of succession, while not meaningless, will be only a part of who emerges as a "leader" or Westeros (and possibly of Essos too). I think thing like leadership in the conflicts, feats of arms and things of that nature will play big parts.

[Prophecy]

Since his watch has ended...he no longer has ties to the Night's Watch and can go do whatever he wants if he comes back to life.

...if the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow theory is true, then he is the rightful King by all laws of Westeros...hence Jon Snow = Jon Blackfyre = Jon Targaryen I.

Robert Baratheon’s line (by conquest) are the legal heirs to the Iron Throne but the conflict in the books is built on the doubts, and their resulting actions and consequences, of his heirs legitimacy by Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned. All of the action in the books is set in motion by these doubts.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and they weren’t married then he remains a bastard but in all cases he’s not a Blackfyre and has no legal claim to the throne, he would only be another Targaryen pretender.

If Young Griff/Aegon/(Faegon) is proved to be Rhaegar and Elia’s son then he would be older than Jon and have the superior claim as well as a strong power base. Aegon may be a (yet unknown) Blackfyre pretender.

Should Jon be legitimize then his claim to Winterfell relies on his NOT being Rhaegar’s son because all of Ned’s children have superior claims and Stannis would become his mortal enemy. Jon can not be Rhaegar’s son and the Lord of Winterfell.

Jon is virtually unknown in Westeros (we, as readers, know him well) and he was recently attacked (killed) by his own men. Not an impressive power base and neither Jon, nor any Lord Commander have had any success in raising troops because they’re not a political faction. Jon shows himself to be a strong and decisive leader but he’s unable to build consensus and general support. Polarizing leaders are often more effective (historically) in times of war.

Jon, if he’s Rhaegar’s son and is resurrected by Melissandre, would fulfill two prophecies and maintains his vows.

1 - The Woods Witch prophecy that The Prince That Was Promised is born of Aerys line.

2 - Jon is the SNOW that Melissandre saw in the flames and is Azor Ahai reborn.

3 - Jon continues his vows, fighting the Others, with his Valyrian sword that we know can kill them.

I expect that Melissandre will set Jon’s Valyrian sword, Longclaw, ablaze and that it will, along with Jon, become legendary for leading the battle of the Wall (or beyond). The tempering of the blade will have been Jon’s own blood. The two interchangeable legends of The Prince That Was Promised with Azor Ahai, (often suggested), are combined. I don’t expect Jon to live to the conclusion of the books.

[Eddy of the Godswood]

Robert Baratheon’s line (by conquest) are the legal heirs to the Iron Throne but the conflict in the books is built on the doubts, and their resulting actions and consequences, of his heirs legitimacy by Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned. All of the action in the books is set in motion by these doubts.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and they weren’t married then he remains a bastard but in all cases he’s not a Blackfyre and has no legal claim to the throne, he would only be another Targaryen pretender.

If Young Griff/Aegon/(Faegon) is proved to be Rhaegar and Elia’s son then he would be older than Jon and have the superior claim as well as a strong power base. Aegon may be a (yet unknown) Blackfyre pretender.

Should Jon be legitimize then his claim to Winterfell relies on his NOT being Rhaegar’s son because all of Ned’s children have superior claims and Stannis would become his mortal enemy. Jon can not be Rhaegar’s son and the Lord of Winterfell.

Jon is virtually unknown in Westeros (we, as readers, know him well) and he was recently attacked (killed) by his own men. Not an impressive power base and neither Jon, nor any Lord Commander have had any success in raising troops because they’re not a political faction. Jon shows himself to be a strong and decisive leader but he’s unable to build consensus and general support. Polarizing leaders are often more effective (historically) in times of war.

Jon, if he’s Rhaegar’s son and is resurrected by Melissandre, would fulfill two prophecies and maintains his vows.

1 - The Woods Witch prophecy that The Prince That Was Promised is born of Aerys line.

2 - Jon is the SNOW that Melissandre saw in the flames and is Azor Ahai reborn.

3 - Jon continues his vows, fighting the Others, with his Valyrian sword that we know can kill them.

I expect that Melissandre will set Jon’s Valyrian sword, Longclaw, ablaze and that it will, along with Jon, become legendary for leading the battle of the Wall (or beyond). The tempering of the blade will have been Jon’s own blood. The two interchangeable legends of The Prince That Was Promised with Azor Ahai, (often suggested), are combined. I don’t expect Jon to live to the conclusion of the books.

I realized my serious mistakes with this thread, did not expect it to stay alive and therefore did not edit.

The main purpose was that if Jon dies then his watch is ended. He has never abandoned the watch before due to honor and his duty as a sworn member of the Night's Watch. Now that he has died, if and when he gets resurrected he will be freed to claim whatever rights he has, depending on if and when he meets and discusses his parentage with Howland Reed and whether he is a bastard or not.

[vrso]

Robert Baratheon’s line (by conquest) are the legal heirs to the Iron Throne but the conflict in the books is built on the doubts, and their resulting actions and consequences, of his heirs legitimacy by Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned. All of the action in the books is set in motion by these doubts.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and they weren’t married then he remains a bastard but in all cases he’s not a Blackfyre and has no legal claim to the throne, he would only be another Targaryen pretender.

If Young Griff/Aegon/(Faegon) is proved to be Rhaegar and Elia’s son then he would be older than Jon and have the superior claim as well as a strong power base. Aegon may be a (yet unknown) Blackfyre pretender.

Should Jon be legitimize then his claim to Winterfell relies on his NOT being Rhaegar’s son because all of Ned’s children have superior claims and Stannis would become his mortal enemy. Jon can not be Rhaegar’s son and the Lord of Winterfell.

Jon is virtually unknown in Westeros (we, as readers, know him well) and he was recently attacked (killed) by his own men. Not an impressive power base and neither Jon, nor any Lord Commander have had any success in raising troops because they’re not a political faction. Jon shows himself to be a strong and decisive leader but he’s unable to build consensus and general support. Polarizing leaders are often more effective (historically) in times of war.

Jon, if he’s Rhaegar’s son and is resurrected by Melissandre, would fulfill two prophecies and maintains his vows.

1 - The Woods Witch prophecy that The Prince That Was Promised is born of Aerys line.

2 - Jon is the SNOW that Melissandre saw in the flames and is Azor Ahai reborn.

3 - Jon continues his vows, fighting the Others, with his Valyrian sword that we know can kill them.

I expect that Melissandre will set Jon’s Valyrian sword, Longclaw, ablaze and that it will, along with Jon, become legendary for leading the battle of the Wall (or beyond). The tempering of the blade will have been Jon’s own blood. The two interchangeable legends of The Prince That Was Promised with Azor Ahai, (often suggested), are combined. I don’t expect Jon to live to the conclusion of the books.

I believe Lightbringer could have been the original Valyrian Steel sword, and it being ablaze was not a literal fact, but simply something about the nature of the spell needed to forge it. Therefore, any VS sword could be the one from legend, though only a few can be wielded by Azor Ahai him/herself.

[Prophecy]

I realized my serious mistakes with this thread, did not expect it to stay alive and therefore did not edit.

I didn't mean my reply to sound like a rebuke. You were musing about fiction and there can't be any serious mistake in that.

You connected Jon's end of oath to taking political power that I feel would be a big stretch but I allowed for stretching too; Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and being reborn.

Isn't it a possibility, perhaps slim, that Jon's actually the bastard son of Ned Stark and a woman he refuses to name, (to protect her honor), and that he was just assassinated by his own men? :)

[Eddy of the Godswood]

I didn't mean my reply to sound like a rebuke. You were musing about fiction and there can't be any serious mistake in that.

You connected Jon's end of oath to taking political power that I feel would be a big stretch but I allowed for stretching too; Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and being reborn.

Isn't it a possibility, perhaps slim, that Jon's actually the bastard son of Ned Stark and a woman he refuses to name, (to protect her honor), and that he was just assassinated by his own men? :)

I never said he wasn't assassinated by his own men.

Based on the astounding R + L = J evidence we can assume he is a Targaryen or Targaryen bastard.

Jon additionally wanted to leave the Night's Watch in order to help his family. He turned back partially due to his friends' efforts and partially due to his sense of honor, which is quite important to him as he grew up with Eddard Stark. He is sworn to the NW til death, but now his men have murdered him, relieving him of any ties to the NW. He can now choose to disregard his freedom and stay on the Wall or turn south to help those who helped him and his family.

[Prophecy]

I never said he wasn't assassinated by his own men.

Based on the astounding R + L = J evidence we can assume he is a Targaryen or Targaryen bastard.

Jon additionally wanted to leave the Night's Watch in order to help his family. He turned back partially due to his friends' efforts and partially due to his sense of honor, which is quite important to him as he grew up with Eddard Stark. He is sworn to the NW til death, but now his men have murdered him, relieving him of any ties to the NW. He can now choose to disregard his freedom and stay on the Wall or turn south to help those who helped him and his family.

Yes, I carefully read and clearly understood your points the first time that you made them.

My first post is clear and correct about Jon’s position, if he were alive and known to be Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son, then he’s the legal heir to nothing and his vows aren't relevant.

I get the feeling that you’re taking my responses personally and that’s not their intent nor tenor as I hope you’ll see if you reread them. Otherwise I’d suggest not making public posts if you are easily upset by the responses.

Respectfully,

Pete

[ErasmusF]

I don't believe that For the Watch was a mechanism to release Jon from his vows to the Night's Watch so that he can take Winterfell or fight the Boltons. I believe GRRM is going to use FTW to advance other story points that are more central to ASOIAF.

1. I believe Jon to be the only person keeping the Wildlings in check. The two people who seem central to defeating the others are Jon and Sam, perhaps throw in a third with Mel. So they are pretty much out of the way when the Wildlings attack the remains of the NW. I feel bad for Dolorous Edd.

2. Jon will come back and reform the NW with mostly Wildlings. Jon may not come back at all.

3. Given that Aegon the Unreal is heading up the east from the Stormlands, it seems likely that Dany will head up the West through Dorne with the Ironborn. That means she'll run into Sam, and perhaps he convinces her to go North to battle the WW. She'll have little love for the Boltons, so maybe she takes Winterfell back and goes all lemon cakes with Sansa.

4. I also don't think the unbastardization is central to the plot. If Rickon is around, it doesn't really matter.

5. Jon won't sit on the Iron Throne. Dany might, but I suspect it will be someone else entirely. Maybe Littlefinger. Maybe Aegon, with the approval of Dany given knowledge that he will be a good ruler and she is needed to fight the WW. As much as I hate Dany, I like the fact that she doesn't duck her duty.