Shiny!! Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Wouldn't this make them opposites?Might be kind of hard for Jon to be a Targ then, if this is a song of ice (stark) and fire (Targ). I've never seen Dany as very Starkish.Jon and Danny are man and woman. This makes them oppositions, yes? I have tried already to explain you the balancing scale. Yin and Yang. Like complement Colours. Dany has inherit her Blond traits from Targaryen and Jon has inherit his Stark traits from the Lady Lyanna. Just because Lyanna make baby like Stark means not he cannot be Raegar's hair. Jon and Dany are making together the Song of Ice and Fire that this book shows to the reader with carefulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny!! Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 It's my interpretation that Martin will revealed Jon as king in plain text in the 7th book, by "just spelling it out for everyone else" to see.I think I understand. So the clues for 1 and 2 were in books GOT and COK? Are there more of the 3 codes for mysteries you have found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny!! Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 My accidental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm convinced that even when the book confirms R + L = J, there's going to be people who won't accept it as fact. For example, I expect R+L=J to be confirmed in book 6. So what some will argue is that's just red herring and GRRM will reveal the REAL TRUTH in the last book. If RLJ is a red herring, I kind of suspect that GRRM would introduce it in the penultimate book; e.g., he would have someone incorrectly 'figure it out', because that's how red herrings work. The audience has to be aware of the false trail. If they're not, then what's the point? So, if we get a definitive reveal in Winds, I think it's much more likely to be RLJ than not-RLJ. Because it seems to me that, if RLJ is a red herring, GRRM really ought to play that card at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny!! Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 True. Jon would have needed milk. And if his mother died in the tower of joy, and he was with her, that would have been Ned's first priority (rather than personally pulling down the tower and using the rubble to make cairns for the fallen).How is this of relevation to this story? Ned has servants. Servants finding him goats or nurse maidens for Jon Snow. The tower is in Dorne, we agree, and on the way to Starfall, where much more suitable accommodations might be found for an expectant noble lady.Why are you saying Starfall? Starfall is not in Ned's dreaming of ToJ. When Lady Lyanna had to be hiding, this tower was the place of safety for her. Probably you are right with the conditions, which was why Lyanna had her death by baby. We know Ashara fell in love with Ned, but we don't know Ned fell in love with Ashara. We do agree that Wylla was said to be Jon's mother though, by both Eddard and Edric (Stark+Dayne=J).I'm sorry, but I think we have an accident here. I am not in agreement that Wylla is Jon's maternity. I have argued Rhaegar and the Lyanna. This is confused, I think. This made me laugh, at first... Then, I realized you are perhaps the only person here to answer my question using information found solely within canon. Mayhaps The Ned was overcome with rage, found his inner wolf, and tore down the tower with his kingly Arms of the North. It certainly sounds more plausible than a round, stone tower having a wooden support system. I can't speak to what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna, or if he actually loved her, but we do know he was a family man - a husband to Elia Martell and a father to two true-born children by her. It seems unlikely to me that Lyanna would willingly become a home-wrecker, but that's just me. Unless... (humor me for a minute) What if Lyanna was working in a brothel? Mayhaps this is why Ned was reminded of his sister when he visited the brothel in KL. Mayhaps Rhaegard didn't "frequent" the brothels, but did visit once or twice to pay a visit to the winter rose... Now, many here will call that idea crackpot, or trollish, but in truth, it is just as out of character for Lyanna as developing a romantic relationship with a married man. The Starks were not like other men. Might the Stark women not have been like other women?I have validated my thinking with the text canon and there is no cannon that is saying Lyanna prostituted. Lyanna has exscuse to marry Rhaegar because he can marry who he wants with his royal powers. Lyanna loved Rhaegar since when she heard his harp at the harrenhal tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I agree with this. The hints that Jon may be a king start after Robb signs his will. There has always been a hint of a parallel between Rhaegar and Theon, though, and it may be a little stronger in light of the confirmation in the World Book that Aerys was thinking about disinheriting Rhaegar. Here is Theon, who is very active with a number of women but (so far as we know) does not frequent brothels, when he thinks he is a Crown Prince, and is about to be disinherited by the king. This is what he tells the Captain's daughter after suggesting that she is probably pregnant and telling her he is leaving her with her father: "It's not every man who has the honor of raising a king's bastard."Yes the Theon/Rhaegar is an angle one can take .This entire passage is actually one of my favorites because taken in its entirety you can see alternatives and if its part of a theme or maybe just maybe one can make connections with anyone if you take it to far. So if arya is the blue rose, and not a male Stark, then why will she be at the wall? And why will Dany see her? His seems to imply that Arya will die.And I am inclined to agree about aegon not being polygamous, and possibly you make a case for Rhaegar not marrying again either. I'm glad to see someone else with this thought.I for one definitely believe- the evidence is crystal clear on that one-that the blue rose equates a Stark maiden.I to believe there is foreshadowing for Arya ending up at the Wall and the flower growing out the chink in the Wall is her. Consider the story of Dany Flint,and that there is girl in the Stark family tree named "Arya Flint" that connection scares me a bit.But,Arya is probably going to pass as a boy to get to the Wall.I would hate to see her go through something shitty there. She did kill what's his face from the NW and take his boots.I'm not sure she can pull off looking like him,but its a dudes boots. Even if people argue that there are, they can still post and discuss those alternate theories in their respective threads. I don't know why people stop. Why should fans of RLJ have to bend over backwards, considering feelings and thoughts of other fans that have strong disapproval of RLJ as a theory and expect to give equal weight to other theories, when in their minds/hearts feel that RLJ is the 'most' correct. It's like we can't fully enjoy discussing the theory without getting bombarded long essays declaring that there are gaps, that we must consider other theories first because of those gaps, as if, we haven't done that already. :dunno: Why can't some people see that some RLJ fans became fans in the first place, because of those very hints, clues and foreshadowing of Jon's royal heritage. And from there, it is not far fetched at all to conclude that Martin would place Jon on SOME throne in the end as the king. Especially, of how similar Martin is fashioning and molding Jon like Tolkien's Aragorn. Will that be a mistake? of course, Martin could kill Jon somehow and never ever wear a crown at all, in the end, but until that's stated, then to be dissuaded that "Martin will not do that trope with Jon," is not strong enough for me. It's my interpretation that Martin will revealed Jon as king in plain text in the 7th book, by "just spelling it out for everyone else" to see.That's all cool,but i got to say there are alternatives,myths,motifs that work a lot better.That's just the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 That's all cool,but i got to say there are alternatives,myths,motifs that work a lot better.That's just the truth. Like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Like? Which? Alternatives,myths,motifs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Which? Alternatives,myths,motifs? The truth, that other alternatives, myths, motifs that work a lot better. Remember now, this 'truth' should convince me away from my current beliefs, so it needs to be quite strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The truth, that other alternatives, myths, motifs that work a lot better. Remember now, this 'truth' should convince me away from my current beliefs, so it needs to be quite strong. That's actually a strange request....Your OP has links to essays,summaries,analysis upon eachother that are almost as large as some of the novels and you want me to convince you( which i don't care if your convinced or not as its not my intent) in what a few words? Already it seems you think any alternative is so diminished that they don't need some form of quantity for which to be expressed. I will give you the truth though since you asked.From what i've observed. I have read every essay,summary and analysis in your OP.I know every arguement in favor of Rhaegar and Lyanna for these "clues" weren't subtle on my first read ,but that besides the point.I know how you guys analyze and why you all come up with the mountain of 'evidence" you think is there to support this theory. However,I have seen unfinished essays in the past few weeks that are more convincing than the arguements presented here. But note i'm not saying Rhaegar is not a possibility,he certainly is.I'm just saying based on what you guys have presented as facts,clues,foreshadowing Rhaegar is atleast 5th on my list behind(in no particular order). Dayne,Ned,Howland and Robert. That's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 But note i'm not saying Rhaegar is not a possibility,he certainly is.I'm just saying based on what you guys have presented as facts,clues,foreshadowing Rhaegar is atleast 5th on my list behind(in no particular order). Dayne,Ned,Howland and Robert. That's the truth. Don't stop there! There's nothing for us RLJ fans to slice and dice your 'alternative' options. I want you to argue for (Arthur?) Dayne, Howland and Robert. I need the texts. Make sure it's the same level of intensity and scrutiny that you guys put on R+L=J and how it fits with Martin's overall arc in ASOIAF as we are currently in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 In case anyone is interested, my new Astronomy of Ice and Fire essay has significant implications for R+L=J, as well new evidence in support of R+L=J. One of the main topics is an exploration of the hypothesis that Azor Ahai was actually a dark lord, associated with the cause of the Long Night instead of its cure. The "Bloodstone Emperor" that we hear about in TWOAIF may actually be just another name for Azor Ahai, and thus anyone who may be fulfilling some part of Azor Ahai's legacy need be wary. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132255-astronomy-of-ice-and-fire-black-hole-moon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Don't stop there! There's nothing for us RLJ fans to slice and dice your 'alternative' options. I want you to argue for (Arthur?) Dayne, Howland and Robert. I need the texts. Make sure it's the same level of intensity and scrutiny that you guys put on R+L=J and how it fits with Martin's overall arc in ASOIAF as we are currently in the books. Oh i can stop there and i will.Its not my place to argue for Dayne,Howland and Ned. I can argue for Robert and i prefer to release my essay for discussion as does the others during the project we are hosting to discuss the alternatives. Surely,you can understand that.Its not like if you all won't ever have a chance to see the alternatives just that you'll see them when the essays are finished. The bolded red part went over my head, make sure what's the same level and scrutiny? I assume you mean or asking if the essays have or ar going through the same level of scrutiny and if they fit with Martin's overall arch? Ok that last bolded really strikes me as odd,that's not for you to say.How can you presume to know what the overall arch is and that you have it right? I can say based on the patterns,themes that i see unfolding i believe i have an overall picture which i believe encompasses and comes full circle.It might not be what you,you have in mind but that's not its purpose.The pattern says what it says and does what it does and it makes perfect sense to me.That's all i can offer you. ETA.Off to bed as i have to be up in like 4 hours so if you do reply to this.I won't answer for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinjuku Thief Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Don't stop there! There's nothing for us RLJ fans to slice and dice your 'alternative' options. I want you to argue for (Arthur?) Dayne, Howland and Robert. I need the texts. Make sure it's the same level of intensity and scrutiny that you guys put on R+L=J and how it fits with Martin's overall arc in ASOIAF as we are currently in the books. I look forward to seeing this as well, along with arguments in favour of Ser Arthur Dayne, Ned, Howland or Robert Baratheon more convincing than what we've seen so far in 140+ threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 ETA.Off to bed as i have to be up in like 4 hours so if you do reply to this.I won't answer for a while. Okay. In case anyone is interested, my new Astronomy of Ice and Fire essay has significant implications for R+L=J, as well new evidence in support of R+L=J. One of the main topics is an exploration of the hypothesis that Azor Ahai was actually a dark lord, associated with the cause of the Long Night instead of its cure. The "Bloodstone Emperor" that we hear about in TWOAIF may actually be just another name for Azor Ahai, and thus anyone who may be fulfilling some part of Azor Ahai's legacy need be wary. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132255-astronomy-of-ice-and-fire-black-hole-moon/ Nice! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sean Bean would like to have a word with anyone who thinks Ned is Jon's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sean Bean would like to have a word with anyone who thinks Ned is Jon's father. Sean Bean isn't in the books, obviously not canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Don't stop there! There's nothing for us RLJ fans to slice and dice your 'alternative' options. I want you to argue for (Arthur?) Dayne, Howland and Robert. I need the texts. Make sure it's the same level of intensity and scrutiny that you guys put on R+L=J and how it fits with Martin's overall arc in ASOIAF as we are currently in the books. :agree: Give us something to chew on. Link essays, whatever you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 In case anyone is interested, my new Astronomy of Ice and Fire essay has significant implications for R+L=J, as well new evidence in support of R+L=J. One of the main topics is an exploration of the hypothesis that Azor Ahai was actually a dark lord, associated with the cause of the Long Night instead of its cure. The "Bloodstone Emperor" that we hear about in TWOAIF may actually be just another name for Azor Ahai, and thus anyone who may be fulfilling some part of Azor Ahai's legacy need be wary. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132255-astronomy-of-ice-and-fire-black-hole-moon/No disrespect meant but I am rather short of time (and mental capacity) these days, is there a tl;dr version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 :agree: Give us something to chew on. Link essays, whatever you wish. They'll be posting them eventually. They mention who is writing which essay here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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