R+L=J v.146

[TheSmallOther]

Ned, Robert, and Jon Snow:

I'm really wondering about this 'Robert would kill Jon if he would find out' thing. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I agree. It's not very likely Ned considered Robert as a real threat to Jon. He was quite surprised and disappointed when Robert decided to send killers for pregnant Daenerys. It seems Ned didn't consider Robert as "hunt and kill every single one with Targaryen blood". I guess Ned had other reasons for keeping Jon's parentage secret. If we go traditional route "Jon's life would be in danger", then I'd suggest that Lannisters are the biggest threat, as they already have proved during sack of KL.

[LmL]

Jon doesn't look Targish, but the other Stark children don't look Stark except Arya, according to Cat. They came out Tully.

Ghost's looks don't really say anything about Jon's parentage. Ghost's eyes are red embers, which is fire language anyway.

Ned thinking of Lyanna, but not in conjunction to Jon? In the Tobho Mott chapter doesn't he do just that? (iirc)

Ned doesn't think about Lyanna's baby because that would give it away. Always remember to ask that question - sometimes an author has to withhold info simply to preserve the mystery.

He thinks about Rhagar when we was going to see a bastard child. That's a clue.

No, we don't know why or how Rhagaer and Lyanna went away - but that's not evidence against RLJ.

The crypts thing is important - but do you really think the hosts of old Starks care about bastardry? That's a purely human convention, the idea of wedlock and legitimacy. For purposes of magic, I'd think it would be the blood that counts. Jon is half Stark, just like all the other Stark children. No more or less Stark blooded than any of them. So why would the crypts specifically be hostile to him alone?

Because he has fire blood in him, and Winterfell is ringed with gargoyles (which are mainly associated with warding off evil spirits. The ghosts of the old Starks are doing the same thing, denying hospitality with their swords across their laps. There's something deeper going on here - I don't think it has anything to do with him being a bastard. That would make sense if those dreams were purely manifestations of Jon's unconscious, as he perceives a sense of rejection from the Starks. But those dreams are way too creepy and important to be just dreams, IMO, which means there's a reason the ghosts deny Jon.

I think Winterfell was warded against fire magic, myself, but regardless, something is going on there.

[TheSmallOther]

I think Winterfell was warded against fire magic, myself, but regardless, something is going on there.

I agree that something is going on and indeed it might be related to Jon's blood. But I doubt that Winterfell was warded against fire magic. If that is true, what would be a reason for Starks to kneel to Aegon? They could keep themselves safe from dragons just by staying in Winterfell.

[Sly Wren]

"Here, see the blue rose? Now follow the blue rose. When you see that, it's called a symbol, and you should compare every appearance of a given symbol to see just what I am saying about it."

Everyone who took that lesson gained insight on how to analyze ASOIAF. Dont believe the narrator, and don't obsess about logistics - the symbols tell the truth. If you take the the same methodology and apply it to every significant symbol - black blood, let's say, or sickle moons - you will begin to see what Martin is saying about it.

That's why I shake my head at the people who deny RLJ - I just feel like they simply aren't getting it. I could be totally wrong, of course, I'm human - but from my perspective, if you're still waiting for empirical proof, some sort of Rhagaer -Lyanna sextape, you really just don't understand what game we are playing here.

Agree on the blue rose, though I came at it mostly through Ned's dreams--they didn't seem to fit. But agree that hands down the clearest explanation for the rose is the Bard story. A stolen Stark daughter. A boy as potential Stark heir. Put the rose at the Wall--yes, it isn't math. Yes, it could be a misdirect. But really does seem to point to Jon.

But please--no Lyanna and Rhaegar sex tape. Please. In fact, we should stop talking about it. Am remembering a joke re: the showrunners reading the forums for ideas--please, showrunners, don't use this! :stunned:

Jon doesn't look Targish, but the other Stark children don't look Stark except Arya, according to Cat. They came out Tully.

SNIP

I think Winterfell was warded against fire magic, myself, but regardless, something is going on there.

Oh, no--I think you may have misunderstood me--I wasn't giving the list as definitive arguments against RLJ. I don't think any of these, individually or collectively, are determinative. Suggestive, but not determinative. As you showed above, and as is demonstrable other ways--these can all be true and still allow for RLJ.

The items I listed are in the text. And the texts aren't done. So options are still on the table. But none of the things on my list disqualifies Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son per se.

Or have I misread the purpose of your post and just posted a completely unnecessary clarification? :dunno: If so, my apologies.

[The Twinslayer]

We don't know nearly enough about Jenny's woods witch to know what she would or wouldn't make up, or why. We don't know if she is really a COTF or not, whether she is "working" alone or with others, or anything about her purpose. We don't know what the COTF are really up to, or whether there are factions that are up to conflicting things.

Just because Jenny's woods witch told Jaehaerys that TPTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, doesn't mean that TPTWP is who or what she is actually expecting to come from that union. It could be that she expects the union to produce a particular someone or something, but that TPTWP was just an already available prophecy that was near and dear to the Targ heart, and so used it to try to manipulate Jaehaerys into making the needed match.

I am completely open to the idea that Jenny's woods witch was being completely honest, and what she said was all really straight forward. I am just suggesting the possibility that she could have had other motives for seeing the union and fruit of that union than what we see at face value. For all we know, COTF could anticipate TPTWP as more of an antichrist figure to doom them and their remnant, than a savior.

We also don't know whether the woods witch was just mistaken, in which case the Prince That Was Promised may not come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella at all.

[LmL]

I have been one to think that Neds sword is actually AA's Lightbringer, kept in Winterfell for safekeeping. I know, I know, Cat thinks it came from Valyrians 400 years ago. But if she isn't privy to RLJ, do you think she knows about the sword (if it is indeed Lb)? Hell, Ned might not have known.

Basically, Neds sword is one of two things: it's a Valyrians steel sword which serves the purpose of Lightbringer in many metaphors, or it is actually Lightbringer. I am a writing a whole essay on this, as I believe there is an abundance of evidence, both symbolic and logistical. I won't go into that here, but the idea is basically this: Lightbringer = dragonsteel of the Last Hero. What did he do with LB when he was done? If it were me, and I just whipped the Others's ass with a magic sword, I am keeping that mofo handy, where it can be used to smite those ice demons wherever they return. Winterfell is the place where winter fell, and there's clearly a lot of magician significance to the place. My theory is that Azor Ahai was a menace, a magical sorcerer king (the Bloodstone Emperor), and so the fire sword in the hands of the fire person was bad bad bad. They made use of it by having an ice person - the LH - wield it against the Others. Balance, you know? Just as Jon dreamed of wielding a red fire sword while encased in black ice, I think dragonsteel had to be tempered with ice magic to make it right.

So, when the fight is over, they need LB ready to fight the Others, but they also need to keep it safe from fire people who would abuse it. This is where the warding and gargoyles come into play. The ghosts of the stark kings don't want Jon in the crypts - it could be because there is a source of fire magic at Winterfell which he can tap into. Not only the sword, but also the natural heat source (the sacred fires of the earth) and the persistent talk of dragon presence under Winterfell in some forms. I don't mean fan theories - I mean the repeated mention of in-world rumors of dragons or dragon eggs under Winterfell. I believe that Jon has to reclaim this fire magic heritage, and that it could be deadly - but it will be needed. I'm not sure what that means, or what happened exactly at the end of ACOK where the First Keep which had stood for 8,000 years through three Bolton sacks of Winterfell suddenly came crashing down in an earth shaking crash at the same time that Summer saw a fire breathing serpent flying through the air, I'm just saying this kind of interesting, no?

Gargoyles are only found at Winterfell and Dragonstone, and nowhere else.

Round keeps are supposedly not a First Men design, but only Andal - yet, the First Keep is round, as is Pyke, another inexplicably old castle (the Ironborn claim to have found Pyke and the Seastone chair already there when they arrived). Someone was in Westeros with advanced building techniques in the Dawn Age. We've also got the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle in Oldtown - fused stone is only made with dragon flame and sorcery, and this fortress predates Valyria by thousands of years. This means that the stories of dragonslayers found in the Reach have some truth to them - dragon lords came to Westeros before the Long Night. It's really quite indisputable when you examine the evidence. What they did there, is another question entirely...

[LmL]

Agree on the blue rose, though I came at it mostly through Ned's dreams--they didn't seem to fit. But agree that hands down the clearest explanation for the rose is the Bard story. A stolen Stark daughter. A boy as potential Stark heir. Put the rose at the Wall--yes, it isn't math. Yes, it could be a misdirect. But really does seem to point to Jon.

But please--no Lyanna and Rhaegar sex tape. Please. In fact, we should stop talking about it. Am remembering a joke re: the showrunners reading the forums for ideas--please, showrunners, don't use this! :stunned:

Oh, no--I think you may have misunderstood me--I wasn't giving the list as definitive arguments against RLJ. I don't think any of these, individually or collectively, are determinative. Suggestive, but not determinative. As you showed above, and as is demonstrable other ways--these can all be true and still allow for RLJ.

The items I listed are in the text. And the texts aren't done. So options are still on the table. But none of the things on my list disqualifies Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son per se.

Or have I misread the purpose of your post and just posted a completely unnecessary clarification? :dunno: If so, my apologies.

No we are on the same page. You had me laughing with the D&D sextape stuff - and you're totally right, I didn't tank of that and I should be more responsible. ;)

I agree RLJ is a theory, not fact, but I don't consider that a relevant question in a mystery - fantasy novel, which was my point in bringing up the sextape. We don't get conclusive proof, we are supposed to figure it out without conclusive proof - otherwise, it would be a game. The folks who see a sliver of daylight in RLJ and take it to mean anything at all could happen, and therefore we should have a huge conversation about it, are kind of tiresome to me. When someone else can show how Jon Dayne fits with the blue rose symbolism, I'm all ears. I love the Daynes, I think it would be awesome if he was a Fpdayne, in a vacuum. But I just can't see how anything other than RLJ would fit the symbolism George has laid out, and the fact no one has anything close to a credible theory that does fit the foreshadowing... It just seems like an excercise in contrarianism from some people.

I think that focusing on the symbolic language of the story tends to sort things out.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I have been one to think that Neds sword is actually AA's Lightbringer, kept in Winterfell for safekeeping. I know, I know, Cat thinks it came from Valyrians 400 years ago. But if she isn't privy to RLJ, do you think she knows about the sword (if it is indeed Lb)? Hell, Ned might not have known.

Basically, Neds sword is one of two things: it's a

a ) Widow's Wail (where did that one end up?) and

b ) Oathkeeper (currently either with Lady Stoneheart or with Brienne)

Ned's greatsword Ice came from Valyria 400 years ago according to chapter 2 Catelyn I (somewhat middle-ish in the chapter):

Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

So there was a greatsword called Ice before the Valyrian steel sword. Some have called the "contemporary" Ice "Ice 2.0" for that and others have pondered, that the others use swords that have a milky-ice-ish sheen, so maybe the earliest version of it might have been the sword of an other.

As both the greatsword Ice as well as in its current form Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are much too young to fit the lightbringer prophecy, I think your thoughts about Ned's sword Ice must be off target. (Unless, as you presume, Catelyn errs. Well yes, she might?)

Others have suspected the sword Dawn last wielded by Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy, to put the train of thought back onto R+L=J rails.

[Adaneth]

Arguments against? Off the top of my head:

Jon looks like Ned. Ned and Ashara knew each other at least a bit. Ned reacts intensely to speculation re: Ashara at Winterfell, Ashara committed suicide, speculated by Selmy that is was for a Stark--the evidence works to stick simply to the official story: Ned is Jon's father and Ashara probably the mother.

Other issues: Jon doesn't look at all Targ-ish

I think we can all agree that the look issue goes for both arguments. He is half Stark. So there is nothing strange about it.

He's not only a warg, but his direwolf is so Northern it looks like a weirwood.

Again, mother's blood? Weirwood could be another link (hint) in R+L favor. ;-)

Ned thinks of Lyanna often, but not with Jon.

Ned thinks of Lyanna often, but doesn't think of Ashara or Wylla with or without Jon. So, a weak argument to use against R+L while being pro Ashara or Wylla.

By the way, regarding Wylla. If she's indeed Jon's mother why not tell Cat? After all, it's not Lyanna's boy and it's not Ashara, who some think will bring Cat more anger and sense of betrayal if she was to know (Cat feels angry and betrayed already, but whatever. ). Why the big deal about her?

Ned never thinks of "Lyanna's baby," despite a bed of blood.

That would be a give away though, if the theory is right.

Mentions Rhaegar a bit, thinks of him only rarely, but not with Lyanna or Jon.

Not quite. Rhaegar was with Lyanna and he and Robert talk about both. After all R&L were together. We just don't know if she really was abducted or went with him. If someone wants (as a proof) Ned to think about Rhaegar and Lyanna together, as a couple, that's quite a clue to give away. Besides, Ned doesn't have memories of them as a couple because he hasn't seen them as a couple.

He doesn't think of Rhaegar with Jon, but again it's a big clue to give away. However, he does think about Rhaegar after the visit to that brothel when he went to see Robert’s youngest bastard child. Agreed, he doesn't think of Rhaegar+bastard, he thinks Rhaegar+brothel, but could be a hint. Far-fetched? Maybe....or maybe not. :-D

[Voice]

How is this of relevation to this story? Ned has servants. Servants finding him goats or nurse maidens for Jon Snow.

It's relevant for two reasons, in this debate.

The first, is that Jon being born at Starfall eliminates these problems.

The second, is that in order for us to accept Lyanna and Jon's presence at the tower of joy, Ned must inexplicably start behaving like his wolf-blooded brother Brandon, and tear down the tower while neglecting his dead sister and infant nephew.

Why are you saying Starfall? Starfall is not in Ned's dreaming of ToJ. When Lady Lyanna had to be hiding, this tower was the place of safety for her. Probably you are right with the conditions, which was why Lyanna had her death by baby.

Ah, well Ned dreams of a tower long fallen, and of Lyanna, but never dreams of Lyanna inside of that tower, because it had fallen.

Instead, when Ned is not dreaming, and not fevered, he remembers Howland and others finding him holding Lyanna's body. It requires much invention by the reader to believe this event occurred at the tower of joy, at the expense of both canon and SSMs.

I'm sorry, but I think we have an accident here. I am not in agreement that Wylla is Jon's maternity. I have argued Rhaegar and the Lyanna. This is confused, I think.

I was saying that the canon states Wylla is Jon's mother, that's all.

Both Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne assert this.

I was hinting that the two Neds -- Stark + Dayne -- give us the answer to Jon's parentage. :cool4:

I have validated my thinking with the text canon and there is no cannon that is saying Lyanna prostituted. Lyanna has exscuse to marry Rhaegar because he can marry who he wants with his royal powers. Lyanna loved Rhaegar since when she heard his harp at the harrenhal tourney.

There were hints of canon in your reply, yes... I'll give you that. But, it is also canonical to state that Ned remembers Lyanna while looking at a young whore in a brothel, while un-fevered and un-inebriated by the milk of the poppy.

I don't truly believe Lyanna became a prostitute, because it seems just as incongruous with her personality as sleeping with a married man does. I'm just highlighting the double-standard by which she seems to be judged. Folks in these parts have no trouble Lyanna would develop a romantic relationship with a married father of two. The same man who Ned thinks would not have visited brothels (and fathered bastards) the way Robert Baratheon did.

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

[LmL]

a ) Widow's Wail (where did that one end up?) and

b ) Oathkeeper (currently either with Lady Stoneheart or with Brienne)

Ned's greatsword Ice came from Valyria 400 years ago according to chapter 2 Catelyn I (somewhat middle-ish in the chapter):

So there was a greatsword called Ice before the Valyrian steel sword. Some have called the "contemporary" Ice "Ice 2.0" for that and others have pondered, that the others use swords that have a milky-ice-ish sheen, so maybe the earliest version of it might have been the sword of an other.

As both the greatsword Ice as well as in its current form Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are much too young to fit the lightbringer prophecy, I think your thoughts about Ned's sword Ice must be off target. (Unless, as you presume, Catelyn errs. Well yes, she might?)

Others have suspected the sword Dawn last wielded by Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy, to put the train of thought back onto R+L=J rails.

As I was saying, the only thing we have to date Neds sword is Cat's inner monologue. I'm not simply casting that aside, but I am saying that by itself is not enough to rule out other possibilities, if there is evidence to suggest them.

I think the original Ice is the sword Dawn. That one is easy - it's always described as pale as milkglass, a dead ringer for the Others's bones. I mean, it's a big white sword - calling it Ice is kind of obvious. I think the point of Cat's monologue about Ice is to tell us that swords have been switched - the original Ice is somewhere else, and Ned's sword is not Ice.

Brienne is doing some very interesting things with Oathkeeper - she's killing people and giving their blood and flesh to weirwood trees. She did it on Crackclaw point, even burying Dick Crabb directly under the tree, and now she is ready to kill some more people in Stoneheart's lair, where the weirwoods will again drink the blood.

Ned has a ritual with Ice - every time he killed a man, he cleans the blood off in the black pool, where the weirwood will drink it. I think this is highly ritualistic - dipping the fire sword in the black pool is like tempering it, cooling it off, containing it. There's something important about that act, although I am still trying to figure out what. When Ser Ilyn cut off ned's head, he may not have cleaned the blade, as Sansa sees Ilyn carrying Ice around with dried blood on the blade during the Blackwater siege. George choosing to point this out seems potentially significant.

I would predict that brienne will end up at the wall withoathkeeper, either to wield it herself or to give it to Jon. As AA reborn in some fashion, Jon needs his ancestral blade.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf’s head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a “bastard sword.” Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. “This is Valyrian steel, my lord,” he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

“It is,” the Old Bear told him. “It was my father’s sword, and his father’s before him. The Mormonts have carried it for five centuries. I wielded it in my day and passed it on to my son when I took the black.”

He is giving me his son’s sword. Jon could scarcely believe it. The blade was exquisitely balanced. The edges glimmered faintly as they kissed the light. “Your son—”

“My son brought dishonor to House Mormont, but at least he had the grace to leave the sword behind when he fled. My sister returned it to my keeping, but the very sight of it reminded me of Jorah’s shame, so I put it aside and thought no more of it until we found it in the ashes of my bedchamber. The original pommel was a bear’s head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable. For you, I thought a white wolf more apt. One of our builders is a fair stonecarver.”

When Jon had been Bran’s age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father’s life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child’s folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father’s sword. (Oh never, couldn't happen, definitely not. This not foreshadowing at all) Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother’s birthright? (The Bloodstone Emperor) I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. (yet he wields it anyway...) He twitched his burned fingers, feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin. “My lord, you honor me, but—”

“Spare me your but’s, boy,” Lord Mormont interrupted. “I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night’s Watch does not remember, who will?”

“Who will,” chimed the talkative raven. “Who will.”

Truly, the gods had heard Jon’s prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man’s clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood. Jon had only to close his eyes to see the thing staggering across the solar, crashing against the furniture and flailing at the flames. It was the face that haunted him most; surrounded by a nimbus of fire, hair blazing like straw, the dead flesh melting away and sloughing off its skull to reveal the gleam of bone beneath. Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard’s features. It was his father’s skin that burst and blackened, his father’s eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

Breaking in for commentary, bursting and blackening is not what happened to the wights. That's what happened to a monster when Azor Ahai thrust his swore into it. Jon is dreaming of killing his father with Lightbringer. And his father seems to be a wight or an Other in this dream.

“A sword’s small payment for a life,” Mormont concluded. (Lightbringer was bought with a life -Nissa Nissa's) “Take it, I’ll hear no more of it, is that understood?”

“Yes, my lord.” The soft leather gave beneath Jon’s fingers, as if the sword were molding itself to his grip already. He knew he should be honored, and he was, and yet …

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man’s sword he dreamt of … (AGOT, Jon)

[LmL]

He pulled Longclaw over a shoulder. “Aren’t you afraid?”

“Last night I was,” she admitted. “But now the sun’s up.” She pushed her hair aside to bare her neck, and knelt before him. “Strike hard and true, crow, or I’ll come back and haunt you.”

Longclaw was not so long or heavy a sword as his father’s Ice, but it was Valyrian steel all the same. He touched the edge of the blade to mark where the blow must fall, and Ygritte shivered. “That’s cold,” she said. “Go on, be quick about it.”

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father’s son. Wasn’t he? Wasn’t he? (ACOK, Jon)

[Sly Wren]

I would start with the fact that Ned repeatedly tells people that Jon is his son, starting in Chapter 1. He says this to his king, to his wife, and to the whole world. The first hurdle to R+L=J is that you have to believe that Ned was lying about this.

Then go to the fact that he tells Catelyn that he never wanted to married to her or to be Lord of Winterfell in the first place ("I never asked for this cup to pass to me"), suggesting that he was in love with someone else.

Agreed--both of these strongly support Ned's given narrative of himself and Wylla as parents AND could support Ned and Ashara as parents.

We also don't know whether the woods witch was just mistaken, in which case the Prince That Was Promised may not come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella at all.

Yes--am wondering if we're ever going to learn about that. Ghost of High Heart (who seems to be a woods witch) does seem to know things--but her words don't give much context to anyone but readers. No way yet to tell for sure if the woods witch was right. And, if she was right, no way to know if any of the Targaryens who knew about this prophecy interpreted it correctly and/or made helpful decisions re: their interpretations.

[Lord Varys]

Bael's Bastard,

considering that the prophecy was already in existence, and considering that we know how the actual foretelling stuff of the Ghost works - cryptic prophetic dreams and stuff she sees in people - my guess that what led to her prophecy to Jaehaerys was of the second category. She may have perceived something in his future - or rather in the future of his children when she looked upon them. Just as she saw death in Arya. It isn't very likely she had a precise vision of the future in a dream as this could have led to her giving a very fine description of the promised prince, his parents, and when exactly he was to be born.

Surely she could have kept something from Jaehaerys but I'd rather assume that whatever actual plans she had at that time were connected to her Jenny and the reign and plans of Aegon V.

Stark stuff:

If 'the Kings of Winter' means that the Starks rule winter and the ice George has done a very bad job establishing that. The Starks endure and survive winter, that's their strength, that's how they master it, but they don't rule or cause it. We have no proof that there is any direct connection between the Others and the Starks - and even if there were, the Starks obviously are not Others nor have they similar abilities/characteristics.

I'm not saying ice magic is always bad, either, I'm just saying the Starks aren't ice mages in the same sense the ancient Targaryens clearly were fire mages. It is not impossible that the first Others were Children or humans who used a powerful ice spell to transform themselves - and perhaps the guy doing that was an ancestor or kinsman of Brandon the Builder. But does this mean the Stark blood carries a magic quality the same way the Targaryens are the blood of the dragon? No. However, the Starks certainly carry a strong skinchanger/greenseer that has come forth in the recent generation.

The 'winter is coming' and 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' thing seems to be more a reminder for the members of the house to keep their watch over the North and the threat the Others pose. It is not winter that is coming, it is the Others - they bring the winter, they are winter, and they are death (at least to humankind). The Starks have always been the secondary Night's Watch controlling the potential second front should the Others ever attack and bring down the Wall and Night's Watch. And it is that duty in which they utterly fail during the first half of the series.

[Sly Wren]

It's relevant for two reasons, in this debate.

The first, is that Jon being born at Starfall eliminates these problems.

The second, is that in order for us to accept Lyanna and Jon's presence at the tower of joy, Ned must inexplicably start behaving like his wolf-blooded brother Brandon, and tear down the tower while neglecting his dead sister and infant nephew.

Ah, well Ned dreams of a tower long fallen, and of Lyanna, but never dreams of Lyanna inside of that tower, because it had fallen.

Instead, when Ned is not dreaming, and not fevered, he remembers Howland and others finding him holding Lyanna's body. It requires much invention by the reader to believe this event occurred at the tower of joy, at the expense of both canon and SSMs.

Agreed.

I was saying that the canon states Wylla is Jon's mother, that's all.

Both Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne assert this.

I was hinting that the two Neds -- Stark + Dayne -- give us the answer to Jon's parentage. :cool4:

Very fair point. Can't help but think Martin put Edric in for something more than backstory. Something's up with Starfall and the Daynes. Agree that Wylla could be Jon's mother, but this also could hint at Ashara as mother or Arthur as father (my second favorite theory).

There were hints of canon in your reply, yes... I'll give you that. But, it is also canonical to state that Ned remembers Lyanna while looking at a young whore in a brothel, while un-fevered and un-inebriated by the milk of the poppy.

I don't truly believe Lyanna became a prostitute, because it seems just as incongruous with her personality as sleeping with a married man does. I'm just highlighting the double-standard by which she seems to be judged. Folks in these parts have no trouble Lyanna would develop a romantic relationship with a married father of two. The same man who Ned thinks would not have visited brothels (and fathered bastards) the way Robert Baratheon did.

Ned reflects on his own weakness in the brothel chapter, and the weaknesses of men in general, while simultaneously exempting Rhaegar Targaryen from such weaknesses. That is quite the bombshell, for those with eyes to see it.

Yeah--we don't know much about Lyanna's backstory. Ned only gave so much. And then he got dead. Without more evidence, can't rule out Lyanna had other relationships--Brandon was wolf blooded and had at least one lover we know about. Lyanna was also wolf-blooded.. . .Not definitive, but can't exclude it.

Brothel chapter--"for those with eyes to see it?" Am assuming you're not implying that I'm blind if I don't agree it means what you think it means. :cool4: Rhaegar doesn't have to frequent brothels to have lovers. Ned's thoughts re: Rhaegar are hardly expansive. But I'll grant you the scene raises questions. Just don't think it answers them in any definitive fashion.

[Adaneth]

...Ned and Cat are the ones I meant :-)

:)

Well, at least Cat isn't that dead yet. Although I don't like seeing her like this. -_-

[LmL]

Bael's Bastard,

considering that the prophecy was already in existence, and considering that we know how the actual foretelling stuff of the Ghost works - cryptic prophetic dreams and stuff she sees in people - my guess that what led to her prophecy to Jaehaerys was of the second category. She may have perceived something in his future - or rather in the future of his children when she looked upon them. Just as she saw death in Arya. It isn't very likely she had a precise vision of the future in a dream as this could have led to her giving a very fine description of the promised prince, his parents, and when exactly he was to be born.

Surely she could have kept something from Jaehaerys but I'd rather assume that whatever actual plans she had at that time were connected to her Jenny and the reign and plans of Aegon V.

Stark stuff:

If 'the Kings of Winter' means that the Starks rule winter and the ice George has done a very bad job establishing that. The Starks endure and survive winter, that's their strength, that's how they master it, but they don't rule or cause it. We have no proof that there is any direct connection between the Others and the Starks - and even if there were, the Starks obviously are not Others nor have they similar abilities/characteristics.

I'm not saying ice magic is always bad, either, I'm just saying the Starks aren't ice mages in the same sense the ancient Targaryens clearly were fire mages. It is not impossible that the first Others were Children or humans who used a powerful ice spell to transform themselves - and perhaps the guy doing that was an ancestor or kinsman of Brandon the Builder. But does this mean the Stark blood carries a magic quality the same way the Targaryens are the blood of the dragon? No. However, the Starks certainly carry a strong skinchanger/greenseer that has come forth in the recent generation.

The 'winter is coming' and 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' thing seems to be more a reminder for the members of the house to keep their watch over the North and the threat the Others pose. It is not winter that is coming, it is the Others - they bring the winter, they are winter, and they are death (at least to humankind). The Starks have always been the secondary Night's Watch controlling the potential second front should the Others ever attack and bring down the Wall and Night's Watch. And it is that duty in which they utterly fail during the first half of the series.

Proof, no, but evidence, yes. Lots and lots. This is not the place to dump it all... but its out there if you look for it.

[Voice]

Agreed.

:cheers:

Very fair point. Can't help but think Martin put Edric in for something more than backstory. Something's up with Starfall and the Daynes. Agree that Wylla could be Jon's mother, but this also could hint at Ashara as mother or Arthur as father (my second favorite theory).

I didn't mean that the two Neds gave us Jon's parentage literally, but Wyla certainly deserves to be on the radar. What I meant to convey, perhaps too subtly, is that the two Neds, one being a Stark and the other being a Dayne, give us Jon's parentage:

Stark+Dayne=Jon the Sword of the Morning

Yeah--we don't know much about Lyanna's backstory. Ned only gave so much. And then he got dead. Without more evidence, can't rule out Lyanna had other relationships--Brandon was wolf blooded and had at least one lover we know about. Lyanna was also wolf-blooded.. . .Not definitive, but can't exclude it.

Brothel chapter--"for those with eyes to see it?" Am assuming you're not implying that I'm blind if I don't agree it means what you think it means. :cool4: Rhaegar doesn't have to frequent brothels to have lovers. Ned's thoughts re: Rhaegar are hardly expansive. But I'll grant you the scene raises questions. Just don't think it answers them in any definitive fashion.

I would never be so obtuse as to suggest you nor anyone here is blind, nor deficient in any reading-comprehension sort of way, my friend. Not my style.

But, when a reader ONLY has eyes for RLJ, it makes it very difficult to see the less-obvious clues as surrounding Jon's birth. The least of which is his parentage. ;)

[Sly Wren]

:cheers:

Back at ya. :cheers:

I didn't mean that the two Neds gave us Jon's parentage literally, but Wyla certainly deserves to be on the radar. What I meant to convey, perhaps too subtly, is that the two Neds, one being a Stark and the other being a Dayne, give us Jon's parentage:

Stark+Dayne=Jon the Sword of the Morning

Not too subtle at all--I brought in Wylla because both Neds do. But the Dayne issue is clearly part of the story, including the myths. No reason to dismiss it out of hand until the books are finished. Even potentially puts the tower of joy name in context--an Arthur who's behaving like a Lancelot . . .

I would never be so obtuse as to suggest you nor anyone here is blind, nor deficient in any reading-comprehension sort of way, my friend. Not my style.

But, when a reader ONLY has eyes for RLJ, it makes it very difficult to see the less-obvious clues as surrounding Jon's birth. The least of which is his parentage. ;)

I was only teasing--may not have been here long, but more than long enough to know that's not what you meant. :cheers:

And agree re: RLJ--it does seem strongest to me. But that is also because it just makes my head happy--so, my prejudice seems likely to play a role in my interp. No point denying that. Plus the books aren't done. Other material is clearly still on the table. No point pretending otherwise.

[Adaneth]

Agreed--both of these strongly support Ned's given narrative of himself and Wylla as parents AND could support Ned and Ashara as parents.

I don't understand how does that support Ned and Wylla as parents.

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber.

The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty-handed. Catelyn pulled the furs to her chin and watched him. He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone. Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed that it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son.

They had just finished making love when they start discussing about him going to KL, and she's trying to convince him to go.

Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?”

“Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . ” She finished for him. “ . . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

She mentioned Brandon for the sake of comparing herself with Sansa about the age, and Ned becomes bitter. He's clearly speaking about responsabilities, and being reminded of his brother and be compared to him (he does that though, not Cat), because he was the big brother and "better". She understands this very well and replies.

“Perhaps not,” Catelyn said, “but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.”

The cup is not Catelyn only. The cup is everything, mainly his position as the head of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, since the discussion was about that. I very much doubt that Ned Stark was making a statement that he never wanted to marry her (he wasn't suppose to marry her and she knows that. She didn't want to marry him either) and that he was in love with somebody else, after 15 years of marriage and after making love with her. That would make any woman go nuts. It's rude and offensive. It shows disrespect. He's not Robert speaking to Cersei.

Proof, no, but evidence, yes. Lots and lots. This is not the place to dump it all... but its out there if you look for it.

Dump it all please. I could read you forever. Very interesting stuff.

Catelyn’s bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

It reminded me what you wrote about Winterfell being build there.