Why All The Walder Frey Hate?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't like Walder but lets not forget that once Robb agreed to marry Walder's daughter and Walder accepted Robb as his king, he put all of his family's heads on Joffery's chopping block. Robb caused the evil that is in Walder to come out against him. Robb is 100% at blame for what happened.

Cat told Robb that Walder was no good and to break his oath would have severe repercussions. So, Robb sticks it to Walder, the Lannisters now want to wipe out the Frey's and Walder is supposed to do what, smile and let it all go? Walder had a choice, stick with Robb after getting jammed up his backside and being in the cross hairs of the real king or turning against the man who screwed him and his family.

Robb deserved what he got. Walder went overboard by killing all the other people, but I don't think he had much of a choice to do it another way. Robb is the cause of the Red Wedding.

You do NOT murder your king when he wrongs you. You petition for redress.

There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind could have anticipated Walder going that far. Robb screwed up, but not badly enough to merit death.

Marriage agreements are broken all the time. Massacre is not the usual way of dealing with it. When four of Aegon V's kids didn't want to go through with their weddings, did anyone kill them? No! Lord Baratheon made a challenge (very civilized in comparison to the RW) and got his butt kicked by Ser Duncan the Tall, and even after that Aegon still gave his only daughter to Lord Baratheon's son as a means of redressing the wrong. Duncan married his Jenny, and gave up his right to the throne. Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other. And Daeron's jilted fiancee went after Shaera's jilted fiance (Olenna Redwyne and Luthor Tyrell). And they all lived happily temporarily after.

Quite frankly, Walder should have made the deal so that Edmure marries Roslin AND Robb's eldest son is married to a Frey. That way he still gets a queen in the family and gets his descendants ruling Riverrun in addition to the entire North and Riverlands. Short-sighted, vengeful old geezer. He missed the opportunity of a lifetime.

[calo760]

Walder Frey is a harsh, abrasive, perverted old man, devoid of love, honor and loyalty, but if anyone survives the winter it'll be him. I like him!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ridiculous and as trollish as anything else said in this thread. Walder has a right to be upset over Stevron, Tion and the other Frey men who died fighting for Robbs broken promise.

Walder Frey actually puts it perfectly

"the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

If you really think a shitty apology from Robb and a marriage to House Tully, that is guaranteed to be finished now that Robb is fleeing North, then why can't Walder do the same. Apologize for the loss of the 3,500 Northern lives and offer some marriage alliances as an act of contrition.

Vengeance is never fair. It very rarely is an eye for an eye. The Freys were justified in getting their revenge on Robb just like the Manderlys were justified in doing the same to the Freys.

There's a difference between the Freys and the Manderlys. We don't know what happened to the three Freys who left Manderly's protection. We absolutely know with NO doubts what Walder did, and all of Westeros thinks it was evil. I think the people of Westeros are better judges of what their society considers acceptable than modern readers are. And Westeros is not happy with House Frey.

They were not remotely justified in what they did. If they had been, Roslin wouldn't have been crying, Olyvar wouldn't have to have been sent away, and nobody would think anything of it.

[Night'sQueen]

Well with all the Janos Slynt, wronged innocent threads we had, I'm sure we'll get one dedicated to what a loving father he was to his daughters.

Ew. :ack:

And what about Janos Slynt now? Never mind, I clearly do not want to know.

How any other characters have so many kids and grandkids named after them? That`s all the proof i need for him to get my vote

:lol:

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

He has a strong sense of family i like that and he did killed Catelyn, that was a good thing for all the realm (until she returned to continue her hate and death agenda), but he also killed many more people under the guest right. I have mixed feelings about him with a slight tendency to like his character.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

There's a difference between the Freys and the Manderlys.

Yes, I agree. The morally objectionable act they committed was against characters most dont like so there actions are praised.

We don't know what happened to the three Freys who left Manderly's protection. We absolutely know with NO doubts what Walder did, and all of Westeros thinks it was evil. I think the people of Westeros are better judges of what their society considers acceptable than modern readers are. And Westeros is not happy with House Frey.

Oh we know what Wyman did.

Sure parts of Westeros not being happy is a great indicator of what is right and wrong. The people of Kings Landing were asked to judge Ned and the crowd wanted his head, does that make it morally right?

They were not remotely justified in what they did. If they had been, Roslin wouldn't have been crying, Olyvar wouldn't have to have been sent away, and nobody would think anything of it.

Of course there was. This was the only way that Walder could get vengeance for the lost Frey lives against Robb. He can easily justify his reasoning for it. You might not agree with his reasons, you dont have to, but he has his reasons.

You do NOT murder your king when he wrongs you. You petition for redress.

Robb was going to murder Joffrey. He did not petition for redress. Is it one rule for the Starks and one for everyone else?

There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind could have anticipated Walder going that far. Robb screwed up, but not badly enough to merit death.

Of course he did. Robb certainly deserved to die. in answer to the Freys like Stevron, Tion and the Frey men who lost their lives fighting for Robb he deserved to die.

Most of his men didn't, but then the men he sent to get beat at the Green Fork didn't deserve to die either.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind could have anticipated Walder going that far. Robb screwed up, but not badly enough to merit death.

I highly doubt Walder had the bravery or wits to orchestrate the RW so that leaves Roose Bolton as the likely puppetmaster. Surely it should be Roose getting all the hate

[Vee Stark]

2/10 on the Troll Scale. Try harder.

Lol

[Frey Pie]

Yes, I agree. The morally objectionable act they committed was against characters most dont like so there actions are praised.

Oh we know what Wyman did.

Sure parts of Westeros not being happy is a great indicator of what is right and wrong. The people of Kings Landing were asked to judge Ned and the crowd wanted his head, does that make it morally right?

Of course there was. This was the only way that Walder could get vengeance for the lost Frey lives against Robb. He can easily justify his reasoning for it. You might not agree with his reasons, you dont have to, but he has his reasons.

Robb was going to murder Joffrey. He did not petition for redress. Is it one rule for the Starks and one for everyone else?

Of course he did. Robb certainly deserved to die. in answer to the Freys like Stevron, Tion and the Frey men who lost their lives fighting for Robb he deserved to die.

Most of his men didn't, but then the men he sent to get beat at the Green Fork didn't deserve to die either.

Robb petitioned for redress several times iirc. So did his uncle edmure and grandfather Hoster

[Hoppy Hour]

2/10 on the Troll Scale. Try harder.

:thumbsup:

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I think the opinions on Frey are not even remotely divided. I don't even understand why there's 3 pages of this thread when the only answer is "Because he is unequivocally a huge dick."

[Frey Pie]

I think the opinions on Frey are not even remotely divided. I don't even understand why there's 3 pages of this thread when the only answer is "Because he is unequivocally a huge dick."

Agreed

You can talk about how Robb betrayed him and this is true. Stevron and other Freys died for him which is awful but which is also war. And it is clear that this is not Walder's motivation for betraying Robb. It's for his own pride. Walder was always looking for a way out and would have turned over any slight. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he would have pulled the same stunt had it been Robb and Roslins wedding

Robb was losing and as soon as that happened Walder was always going to switch sides

[VMVD]

Apart from the use of the phrase watched greedily where do you draw this assumption? Remember the descriptive is from Catelyn`s POV and she already has a lw opinion of him. As for not caring for his family, not giving in to Cat when she threatens Aegon proves nothing as he was probably seen as a stain on the family, though i doubt Walder was happy to lose him

He went so far as to break the sacred law of guest right, risking his life, family's lives, reputation, everything. I'll be damned if he didn't enjoy it. The whole Red Wedding was orchestrated by him so that he could enjoy his revenge, and thanks to Tywin Lannister backing him, he hoped to even escape the consequences.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb petitioned for redress several times iirc. So did his uncle edmure and grandfather Hoster

Robb raised his banners as soon as he heard his father was arrested for treason. He wasn't bothered wether his father was guilty or innocent or what evidence they had or even that Ned confessed his crimes. He wanted revenge for revenge sake just like Walder.

[Frey Pie]

Robb raised his banners as soon as he heard his father was arrested for treason. He wasn't bothered wether his father was guilty or innocent or what evidence they had or even that Ned confessed his crimes. He wanted revenge for revenge sake just like Walder.

100% agree he wanted revenge but not for the sake of revenge alone. He also wanted justice for his father and the riverlands. He wanted to free his sisters from forced imprisonment. He also didn't want to serve another "mad" king. There were several motivations for Robb

I also agree that he wouldn't listen to any thoughts on Ned being guilty. Because he 100% knows his father would only do what he thought was right. There was no question of that for any of the Starks

But in any case my point was that Robb did go to the king. He sent envoys and letters

[maniacmcgoo]

Robb raised his banners in response to the murder of stark bannerman and the arrest or his father and sisters. Then he sat at Moat Cailan. Until word reached him of the need to break Lannister attack on his grandfather's keep. The letter he received from Sansa made it clear to him at least that there would be no justice for Ned and that they needed to move.

Robb's so called betrayal did not merit Walder's actions only a sick mind could believe otherwise. The breaking of the guest right has, more likely than not doomed his family. Especially with the mounting evidence that the God's actually do stuff in Westeros. Even if the gods themselves didn't exact their revenge after the war the Frey line will struggle mightily to make a match of any quality with any family. Combine that with the fact that Walder Frey is a coward does not bode well for him or his family.

Walder Frey is a detestable human being, he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He and Roose are two of the very few characters in the entire series that are truly evil. You claim he is in the right because he was slighted well then, Ser Dontos has every right to slay Joffrey for making him his court Jester. Tyrion would have every right to murder Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and Sansa will be in the right if she slays every noble who stopped speaking to her after Ned's arrest. Such thinking is childish.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

100% agree he wanted revenge but not for the sake of revenge alone. He also wanted justice for his father and the riverlands. He wanted to free his sisters from forced imprisonment. He also didn't want to serve another "mad" king. There were several motivations for Robb

I also agree that he wouldn't listen to any thoughts on Ned being guilty. Because he 100% knows his father would only do what he thought was right. There was no question of that for any of the Starks

But in any case my point was that Robb did go to the king. He sent envoys and letters

Are these the unacceptable demands he sent that he never expected to be met your referring to? Also he can only assume his fathers innocence, at this point there`s no evidence of Joff being a `mad king` and in the case of a traitor/usurper it would be expected for the king to keep his sisters as wards till he shows fealty

[Frey Pie]

Are these the unacceptable demands he sent that he never expected to be met your referring to? Also he can only assume his fathers innocence, at this point there`s no evidence of Joff being a `mad king` and in the case of a traitor/usurper it would be expected for the king to keep his sisters as wards till he shows fealty

Yes the terms that he sent. What did the Crown do towards making peace? Not much

Robb had plenty of evidence but admittedly not full proof that the Lannisters and by extension the new king was out to get them:

Ned and Sansa arrested

Jon Arryn murdered by the Lannisters (so far as he knows)

Assassination attempt on Bran (so far as he knows)

Slaughter of his household guards (not a single prisoner taken?)

Invasion of his Grandfather's lands and pillaging of the populace approved by the King

Flight of many of Robert's followers from the royal court

I can see whys robb thought it wasn't the best of plans to kneel to this guy...

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

People hate Walder Frey? Really?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes, I agree. The morally objectionable act they committed was against characters most dont like so there actions are praised.

Oh we know what Wyman did.

Sure parts of Westeros not being happy is a great indicator of what is right and wrong. The people of Kings Landing were asked to judge Ned and the crowd wanted his head, does that make it morally right?

Of course there was. This was the only way that Walder could get vengeance for the lost Frey lives against Robb. He can easily justify his reasoning for it. You might not agree with his reasons, you dont have to, but he has his reasons.

Robb was going to murder Joffrey. He did not petition for redress. Is it one rule for the Starks and one for everyone else?

Of course he did. Robb certainly deserved to die. in answer to the Freys like Stevron, Tion and the Frey men who lost their lives fighting for Robb he deserved to die.

Most of his men didn't, but then the men he sent to get beat at the Green Fork didn't deserve to die either.

No. That's not what I said. And no, we have no proof of what happened to the missing Freys. It's speculation, that's all. They could have gotten lost in the woods and frozen to death, in which case we'll be seeing them as wights.

It was not "the people" who decided Ned's fate. Nor was it "the people" of King's Landing who wanted him executed. It was a small group of people who like to go to public spectacles that might involve bloodshed. KL has millions of people. Not that many fit in the area in front of the sept.

Walder cannot justify anything. The best he can do is rationalize. Lives are lost in war and HE committed his family members. I don't recall him taking a poll for volunteers amongst his children and grandchildren.

Why exactly are you so pro-vengeance?

Joffrey was NOT legally the king. Robb did try to work out terms instead of directly attacking. Robb held off longer than say his uncle Brandon would have. No, it's not one rule for the Starks and one rule for someone else. If Robb had killed a bunch of people at a wedding, after accepting them as guests--which by societal rules guarantees protection from harm--I'd think just as badly of him.

So any military commander who loses men in battle deserves to die? That is some very twisted logic. The few Freys who died fighting with Robb are not the only ones who died. Other men from other houses were lost as well. None of them decided to kill their king and a good share of his supporters over wounded pride.

If you want to call deliberate deception, murder of a large group of people (don't forget the men outside the castle were slaughtered too, and breaking one of the most sacred rules of a society justifiable, that's your problem.

Robb raised his banners in response to the murder of stark bannerman and the arrest or his father and sisters. Then he sat at Moat Cailan. Until word reached him of the need to break Lannister attack on his grandfather's keep. The letter he received from Sansa made it clear to him at least that there would be no justice for Ned and that they needed to move.

Robb's so called betrayal did not merit Walder's actions only a sick mind could believe otherwise. The breaking of the guest right has, more likely than not doomed his family. Especially with the mounting evidence that the God's actually do stuff in Westeros. Even if the gods themselves didn't exact their revenge after the war the Frey line will struggle mightily to make a match of any quality with any family. Combine that with the fact that Walder Frey is a coward does not bode well for him or his family.

Walder Frey is a detestable human being, he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He and Roose are two of the very few characters in the entire series that are truly evil. You claim he is in the right because he was slighted well then, Ser Dontos has every right to slay Joffrey for making him his court Jester. Tyrion would have every right to murder Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and Sansa will be in the right if she slays every noble who stopped speaking to her after Ned's arrest. Such thinking is childish.

:cheers: Well said, ser or madam!