Lord Ravenstark Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 What appears to be a significant clue, however, is that passage written by GRRM in the World book describing Archmaester Fomas' assertion that the Others were just a Northern tribe. Ser Puddles demonstrated otherwise of course but I do think that the purpose of that passage was to point to a human origin. Human origin... but it also could be a mortal origin. The four-fingered midgets form tribes too, don't they? Men would be wroth, singer would be ravenous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 The sound of voices was echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. "I don't know," a man was saying in a voice thick with doubts. "Maybe if I knew the man better...Lord Stannis didn't have much good to say of him, I'll tell you that.""When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Allister's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannerman in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater.""Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful anxious voice." I can show you his letter, Orthell.'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him." This is the scene right before my previous post in relation to what Jon says. Edit:Spelling That's the bit.Thank you.Still, none of them actually tried to march South. None of them let Wildlings come through the Wall. Two wrongs won't make a right, just because someone did before doesn't make doing it again acceptable. To plot is one thing, to act is another. There is no excuse for it.Cancellation of immorality is a bit sketchy. To play Devil's advocate and the point that Jon drives home though unsuccessfuly "The shield that guards the realms of men and what are the Wildlings if not men?"What appears to be a significant clue, however, is that passage written by GRRM in the World book describing Archmaester Fomas' assertion that the Others were just a Northern tribe. Ser Puddles demonstrated otherwise of course but I do think that the purpose of that passage was to point to a human origin.Shows you how much Fomas knows. Though that Fomas quote is mostly shrugged off as a red herring, I think it actually makes a certain sense; if we perceive "the Others" as a reaction to the Long Night, rather than the bringers of the Long Night, I think the WWs and wights acting as hunters and raiders on behalf of far-northern human colonies would be a possible solution for food shortages.Those who "get right with the gods" and give up their sons will be protected and provided for during the LN, and those who aren't right with the gods are raided, their supplies stolen, and their families added to the army of the dead.I'm not married to the idea, anymore than the dozens of other possible explanations for the original LN, but we do have a textual precedent for both a religion and a system of magic arising in response to dire conditions, with the Faceless Men in the mines of Valyria. Hunting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 That's the bit.Thank you. To play Devil's advocate and the point that Jon drives home though unsuccessfuly "The shield that guards the realms of men and what are the Wildlings if not men?" Shows you how much Fomas knows. Hunting? I do not know which specific meaning of devil's advocate did you use, but when you see the public opinion, I am the one playing the Dragongod-King Savior of Mankind's prosecuter. Yes, they are men indeed, but the chaos unleashed by that... sometimes you simply can't save everyone. In the end, as it hapens to be, it caused more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Hunting? Perhaps foraging frozen animal corpses, more accurately. At the least, there is something curious going on there; one would think that everything north of the Wall would be among the "dead lands" of Old Nan's tales, yet there are some very old cultures up there. Are they all descendants of various peoples pushed north of the Wall after the LN, or are many of them the descendants of LN survivors from the north of the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I would wager that the artist does not have inside information, Because why. It would be such a strange way to leak canon. Much more likely that the whole thing is just the artist's interpretation of the text I think that he painted exactly what GRRM wanted him to paint... You can tell by the themes in the illustrations that the Artist definitely worked closely with GRRM... & I specifically recall reading &/or hearing GRRM say that he had to get Hescox to redo several of the Tyrion illustrations to include his beard & make him look more like a lion... So GRRM definitely had a great deal of oversight over these illustrations & the "Others" that Guilly saw are not the same as the Others that we were introduced to in the AGoTs Prologue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I do not know which specific meaning of devil's advocate did you use, but when you see the public opinion, I am the one playing the Dragongod-King Savior of Mankind's prosecuter. Yes, they are men indeed, but the chaos unleashed by that... sometimes you simply can't save everyone. In the end, as it hapens to be, it caused more harm than good. Lol "I" was playing Devil's advocate.Basically what i was saying is all of their vows count for nothing.But if it's about what was best either way they were screwed or they screwed themselves.Take a chance with the Wildlings southside and alive or Northside and dead.The likelihood of the Wall standing----slim. Perhaps foraging frozen animal corpses, more accurately. At the least, there is something curious going on there; one would think that everything north of the Wall would be among the "dead lands" of Old Nan's tales, yet there are some very old cultures up there. Are they all descendants of various peoples pushed north of the Wall after the LN, or are many of them the descendants of LN survivors from the north of the Wall? This a good question.I'm inclined to think both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Though that Fomas quote is mostly shrugged off as a red herring, I think it actually makes a certain sense; if we perceive "the Others" as a reaction to the Long Night, rather than the bringers of the Long Night, I think the WWs and wights acting as hunters and raiders on behalf of far-northern human colonies would be a possible solution for food shortages.Those who "get right with the gods" and give up their sons will be protected and provided for during the LN, and those who aren't right with the gods are raided, their supplies stolen, and their families added to the army of the dead.I'm not married to the idea, anymore than the dozens of other possible explanations for the original LN, but we do have a textual precedent for both a religion and a system of magic arising in response to dire conditions, with the Faceless Men in the mines of Valyria. I agree that Craster is following this model, and I'm one who thinks he's on to something even if he probably doesn't fully understand what he's doing (plus he never elaborates on what he thinks any of it means)--but WW acting for northern humans? That seems hard to work--maybe could see them gathering things for the Children if the Children are controlling them. But even that's still speculation. Unless it turns out that the Children really like sheep . . . But am thinking the "right with the gods" thing can't work long term. Seems to only apply to Craster so far. Once the Long Night comes, am wondering if anyone could strike the same deal--seems like it all goes nuclear at that point. So, the humans like Craster do turn it into religious "system" and fanaticism to survive--like the other crises you bring up. But no actual gods, as you say--just dire circumstances. But the Long Night does seem to be actual magic. And I really think it's coming somewhat from the cave of skulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Oh I like that one. I hadn't occurred to me before but it is very close. Yeah--and the blindfolded woman with the candle--a light in the darkness--for some reason reminds me of the current state of the Watch--but am not suggesting Martin is going that far with his references. To be completely fair, Jon isn't stabbed so much for his radicalization of the Watch (bringing in Wildlings, giving them castles and the Gift) but rather his constant interference in Northern politics. He begins secretly and then openly backing Stannis, lets Mance Rayder loose upon the Boltons to steal their claim of legitimacy, completely takes control of the Karstark political mess and integrates them with the wildlings, and then intends to march on Ramsay because his constant meddling has finally angered the Boltons enough. I'm not saying Jon was wrong. Most of the time, he did what was ethical. But there's a reason the Watch doesn't interfere in politics, and Jon pushed the limits of his vows to the breaking point. In the Night's Watch's eyes, stabbing him was about the only option they had when faced with the wrath of the Boltons to save their institution from being annihilated. Agree that he pushed them to the breaking point--but I think it was all of the above. He re-thought the role of the Watch. And, given the hint we get about the "original" oath via Sam at the Black Gate--could argue Jon might be getting closer to the original purpose--still something of a guess. But all of that being a breaking point--that's what I meant by the 'unsound methods"--he's "leading" but no longer getting things done the way they want. Even though his ideas re: the Wildlings as being much less a threat than the Walkers--even though he's right about that and possibly right about the need to take on the Boltons--Watch sees this as unsound. Sees it as a threat to their ideals and purpose and existence (as with Kurtz in Conrad). So--stabbiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Just had some breakthrough thoughts on Sansa. This started as a post in reply to why I listed Sansa as my least favorite Stark (she's not my least favorite character--I just like the rest of her family more than her--she's above other non-Stark characters, but not the other Starks, for me), however I quickly realized that it would be "heresy" to most Sansa-lovers so I canceled my response over there to come and chat with you fine folks. Thoughts on Sansa's future arc, anyone? That quote you gave re: Sansa as Estella to Petyr's Miss Havisham--no idea how that's supposed to work--Petyr ain't no Miss Havisham. And he seems much more interested in using Sansa even as he's teaching her to "play"--Havisham is clear pretty early on re: Estella's role--to torture men. Plus, where's the cake and wedding dress? Okay--now that Dickens is out of my head--I do think Sansa is developing abilities to manipulate on her own. As for the potential flight north? Current pet theory is that gossip re: fake Arya gets to the Vale. Like the gossip re: Jon as Lord Commander. She reacted to that--made sure they got his name right. And if she heard about Arya--and didn't know it was a fake (can't see how she'd find out it's Jane)--can see her taking things into her own hands one way or another to at least try to help. But that's just a guess. Obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Though that Fomas quote is mostly shrugged off as a red herring, I think it actually makes a certain sense; if we perceive "the Others" as a reaction to the Long Night, rather than the bringers of the Long Night, I think the WWs and wights acting as hunters and raiders on behalf of far-northern human colonies would be a possible solution for food shortages.Those who "get right with the gods" and give up their sons will be protected and provided for during the LN, and those who aren't right with the gods are raided, their supplies stolen, and their families added to the army of the dead.I'm not married to the idea, anymore than the dozens of other possible explanations for the original LN, but we do have a textual precedent for both a religion and a system of magic arising in response to dire conditions, with the Faceless Men in the mines of Valyria. I'm not so sure about the hunting in the sense of hunter-gatherers, in that I'm still inclined to see them as a version of the Wild Hunt whose principal purpose is to spread terror, but yes a reaction to the Long Night rather than a precursor. I can see the choice being made to give up their sons in return for protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Perhaps foraging frozen animal corpses, more accurately. At the least, there is something curious going on there; one would think that everything north of the Wall would be among the "dead lands" of Old Nan's tales, yet there are some very old cultures up there. Are they all descendants of various peoples pushed north of the Wall after the LN, or are many of them the descendants of LN survivors from the north of the Wall? That's always been my impression and that the reason why they are so down on kings and princes is that their own failed them in the Long Night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Yeah--and the blindfolded woman with the candle--a light in the darkness--for some reason reminds me of the current state of the Watch--but am not suggesting Martin is going that far with his references. Its not necessarily a reference but its a good metaphor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I agree that Craster is following this model, and I'm one who thinks he's on to something even if he probably doesn't fully understand what he's doing (plus he never elaborates on what he thinks any of it means)--but WW acting for northern humans? That seems hard to work--maybe could see them gathering things for the Children if the Children are controlling them. But even that's still speculation. Unless it turns out that the Children really like sheep . . . But am thinking the "right with the gods" thing can't work long term. Seems to only apply to Craster so far. Once the Long Night comes, am wondering if anyone could strike the same deal--seems like it all goes nuclear at that point. So, the humans like Craster do turn it into religious "system" and fanaticism to survive--like the other crises you bring up. But no actual gods, as you say--just dire circumstances. But the Long Night does seem to be actual magic. And I really think it's coming somewhat from the cave of skulls. I'm not sure about the cave of skulls. The reason is, that Long Night happened both in Westeros and Essos. I doubt that cave of skulls has internet connection to corresponding cave on the eastern part of Planetos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I am writing up a theory that Marwyn the Mage is the secret bastard of Olenna Redwynne and Prince Lewyn Martell. He would have been born after the betrothal with Daeron ended and before the marriage to Luthor Tyrell. I was wondering if I could post some of the ideas here while I am working on them before I post the official thread. I know Hersey is supposed to be about looking at things in a different light? Would that be ok in Hersey thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I am writing up a theory that Marwyn the Mage is the secret bastard of Olenna Redwynne and Prince Lewyn Martell. He would have been born after the betrothal with Daeron ended and before the marriage to Luthor Tyrell. I was wondering if I could post some of the ideas here while I am working on them before I post the official thread. I know Hersey is supposed to be about looking at things in a different light? Would that be ok in Hersey thread? Hm. You don't need to ask permission to post here, feel free to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I agree that Craster is following this model, and I'm one who thinks he's on to something even if he probably doesn't fully understand what he's doing (plus he never elaborates on what he thinks any of it means)--but WW acting for northern humans? That seems hard to work--maybe could see them gathering things for the Children if the Children are controlling them. But even that's still speculation. Unless it turns out that the Children really like sheep . . . But am thinking the "right with the gods" thing can't work long term. Seems to only apply to Craster so far. Once the Long Night comes, am wondering if anyone could strike the same deal--seems like it all goes nuclear at that point. So, the humans like Craster do turn it into religious "system" and fanaticism to survive--like the other crises you bring up. But no actual gods, as you say--just dire circumstances. But the Long Night does seem to be actual magic. And I really think it's coming somewhat from the cave of skulls. I just don't get why people can't see that Craster is a Red Herring... He's named after a town that mass produces smoked herring... It could not be more obvious... The figures that Gilly saw picking up the sacrifices were definitely not Others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Town and mass-producing is laying it on a bit thick. Its a tiny village clinging on to the shore and just a couple of smoke houses producing kippers. Can't stand kippers myself but that comes from being brought up in a fishing harbour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I just don't get why people can't see that Craster is a Red Herring... He's named after a town that mass produces smoked herring... It could not be more obvious... The figures that Gilly saw picking up the sacrifices were definitely not Others... Definitively? How can we be so sure? Did we actually see anything picking up the boys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 And yet Ser Puddles, one of those cold gods with the eyes as blue as stars certainly wasn't a member of Val's ladies sewing circle, but a demon made of snow and ice and cold.* *Stannis Baratheon© Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Shows you how much Fomas knows. More than you I suspect :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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