Heresy 172

[Lady Dyanna]

The Observation I make: Ned's question seems dispirited & depressed as he says that, seeming to imply complicity in the actions he's contemplating in that thought.

The question becomes, if R+L=J is true, then what bastard or lust that's produced such a bastard is Ned speaking about? The Ashara Dayne connection? Or perhaps a woman named Wylla that we do not know beyond the fact that Ned has admitted to having slept with a woman outside of marriage to Cat?

If R+L=J is not true, then it's about Jon still--which feels natural considering Ned was still thinking of Jon just before this.

Alternative, it's still about Jon, but Jon's not the ubermensch secret prince-ling of some of the R+L=J fantasies, instead he's simply Rhaegar's bastard.

Then why does that line still feel so personal to Ned?

Now that you spoke about Ashara, I wonder what took her to suicide. I can imagine Ashara and Ned deeply in love. Ned was a second son, his brother was already married to a important lord. The Daynes are no week lordlings, either. Brandon's death and Ned marrying another woman, that in time he came to love. Maybe he even let her with baby, but that's conjecture.

It would be interesting, in comparison. Both Robert and Eddard would have married women they didn't expect... it is just that Ned managed to get through it, Bob didn't.

With Ashara I've conjectured in the past that she and Elia performed the baby switch themselves, with Ashara's baby dying in Aegon's place as it fits with George's stated "inspiration" for ASOIAF: Les Rois Maudits, and explains rather neatly and interestingly Ashara's role in the story.

And if Ashara's child was Ned's... what a gigantic bombshell.

So, enable me to go way out on the ledge here...

It may just be that Ned has been surrounded by bastards. I recently watched a video theory that Robb was actually his brother Brandon's child and the reason Ned had to marry Cat. Now wouldn't that be interesting? How would you feel if you were Ashara at that point? Not only did the man you love choose another woman, but his brother's child over his own? Now add on to that, your child with that man has just been sacrificed to save the Prince...

I really can't picture Ned being too happy about that situation either, especially if he truly does love Ashara. It could be that the birth of bastards have shaped his life a little too much, often in ways he might not have chosen for himself.

[TheSmallOther]

Not ruling it out entirely, but I find that very hard to believe. Qhorin was also at the Shadow Tower, and he's been there for a LONG time. If Rhaegar or Dayne suddenly showed up, he'd have noticed, he'd know the story is fake. And he would have no reason to tell a known fake story to Jon, when he can just tell nothing.

<trolling>

If you search around in forums (perhaps even in heresy, can't recall now), you'll find theories not only about Mance = Rhaegar but Qhorin = Arthur Dayne

<end_of_trolling>

[Lady Dyanna]

As I said, I'm not ruling it out. I just think it's extremely unlikely that even Martin can pull it off in a way that doesn't leave me scratching my head, given that conversation between Qhorin/Jon.

I'm not certain that I buy it 100% either. I do believe that there is more to Mance than meets the eye. I find it highly unlikely that he is Rhaegar, but definitely plausible and infinitely more likely that he could be Arthur Dayne. I've come to believe that Martin can pull off many unlikely things. It's only in retrospect that we discover how many clues there actually were.

[Lady Dyanna]

<trolling>

If you search around in forums (perhaps even in heresy, can't recall now), you'll find theories not only about Mance = Rhaegar but Qhorin = Arthur Dayne

<end_of_trolling>

Hmmmm... I'll have to look some of those up. Although, then again, I have currently pretty much convinced myself that Rhaegar is Jaqen H'gar. ;)

BTW: HEY HERETICS,

I've really enjoyed reading many past and current threads. You all have some awesome ideas and are quite inspiring. Thanks especially to Black Crow for all of the effort he has obviously put in over the years to keep Heresy going. I appreciate everyone's responses to my sometimes out there comments and thank you all for helping a new poster get over the fear of posting due to the occasional cruelty shown on some of the general threads. :)

But where is the love? Been posting a couple weeks now and haven't gotten a welcome from any of you. Enough to make a needy girl paranoid! ;)

[nanother]

I'm not certain that I buy it 100% either. I do believe that there is more to Mance than meets the eye. I find it highly unlikely that he is Rhaegar, but definitely plausible and infinitely more likely that he could be Arthur Dayne. I've come to believe that Martin can pull off many unlikely things. It's only in retrospect that we discover how many clues there actually were.

Yup, agreed on that :cheers:

But where is the love? Been posting a couple weeks now and haven't gotten a welcome from any of you. Enough to make a needy girl paranoid! ;)

Oh dear, no need to worry. Can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't even realise you were new (I only just returned to the formus after a long hiatus), tho I guess I should have looked at the post count. Of course we love you :grouphug:

[TheSmallOther]

Hmmmm... I'll have to look some of those up. Although, then again, I have currently pretty much convinced myself that Rhaegar is Jaqen H'gar. ;)

BTW: HEY HERETICS,

I've really enjoyed reading many past and current threads. You all have some awesome ideas and are quite inspiring. Thanks especially to Black Crow for all of the effort he has obviously put in over the years to keep Heresy going. I appreciate everyone's responses to my sometimes out there comments and thank you all for helping a new poster get over the fear of posting due to the occasional cruelty shown on some of the general threads. :)

But where is the love? Been posting a couple weeks now and haven't gotten a welcome from any of you. Enough to make a needy girl paranoid! ;)

Of course, there is love :cheers: We love all girls and boys. We also love nice discussions about North, Wall, and Others. More often than not we love to discuss Rhaegar and Lyanna, some may same we even love Rhaegar. Not sure if there is anyone who loves Jon Connington, although he loved Rhaegar, too.

Back to serious business. Personally for me, there are to many candidates for X being Y. Mance is Rhaegar, Daario is Benjen, Quaithe is Ashara Dayne. Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore. Aegon is fAegon and fAegon is Aegon. Varys is a mermaid who wants to bring ice and fire together and melt that big wall in the North, so he can profit. To be honest, I don't think this is the game GRRM is playing.

[Reposado]

Not direct evidence, but as far as faked death conspiracies go, there are way more witnesses to Rhaegar's death and burial, seeing as though he died in a great battle and was buried in the main sept in the capital. Whereas, if you believe in ToJ conspiracies, the only people to see Arthur Dayne's dead body would have been Ned (who due to "the promise" might lie), Howland Reed (who would lie due to Stark loyalty), and House Dayne (who could be convinced to lie by the Sword in the Morning, himself).

Moreover, Rhaegar having access to magic would mean that Mance has access to magic, yet the only glamouring we see is Mel's spell on him. So, you're telling me that there's multiple glamours operating at once? There's strong indication that magic hasn't been prevalent at the time Rhaegar was killed and only started coming back into the world recently. So the idea of such powerful spells that they persist in death prior to the rebirth of magic is one I find dubious.

All that being said, I'm not familiar with any "missing Richard Lonsmouth" quotes from the book. I remember the Harrenhal story where he's mentioned as drinking and carrying on with Bobby Baratheon, but not where they talk about him being missing. Moreover, if we have a missing Lonsmouth, I think Patchface is a much better suspect (Melisandre's vision of Patchface with red lips surrounded by skulls is a direct correlation to House Lonsmouth's banners). Is there any quotes about where he sided in the war? He was Rhaegar's squire and friend, but is also a bannerman of House Baratheon and seems friendly with Robert as well.

it doesn't say that he was missing, but it mentions his other squire being killed and doesn't give any account of him being at the battle. not that that is evidence of anything but it gives us a body to die at the trident.

and patchface was in storms end before the rebellion

I'm not certain that I buy it 100% either. I do believe that there is more to Mance than meets the eye. I find it highly unlikely that he is Rhaegar, but definitely plausible and infinitely more likely that he could be Arthur Dayne. I've come to believe that Martin can pull off many unlikely things. It's only in retrospect that we discover how many clues there actually were.

it's possible but there is no evidence in the text at all. it would be a sudden. "he guys im arthur dayne"

and dayne would also have needed a glamour as well. there are plenty of people at the wall. (that fought against robert) that would know what arthur dayne looked like

i don't believe that mance is rhaegar. there are already too many secret identities. if some people were correct in all their beliefs, the last book would be like clue, with someone walking us through the mysteries and everyone whipping off their masks to show who they really are. (and it's some character with 10 mentions) but i really can't see him being dayne. i could see him being lonmouth before dayne. it would make more sense for lonmouth to emulate rhaegar's style than it would for dayne to.

Back to serious business. Personally for me, there are to many candidates for X being Y. Mance is Rhaegar, Daario is Benjen, Quaithe is Ashara Dayne. Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore. Aegon is fAegon and fAegon is Aegon. Varys is a mermaid who wants to bring ice and fire together and melt that big wall in the North, so he can profit. To be honest, I don't think this is the game GRRM is playing.

very true

[Amoracchius]

But where is the love? Been posting a couple weeks now and haven't gotten a welcome from any of you. Enough to make a needy girl paranoid! ;)

Welcome (and thanks for being the first/only to respond to my thoughts on TPATQ)!

[Black Crow]

Good lord, could 'tower of joy' be a euphimism?

I've noted before that when Tyrion, as he often does, utters the words "oh joy" he means exactly the opposite

I'm sure somebody with an electronic copy and a search function will be able to contradict me but its my recollection that the word joy isn't actually used much in ASoIF and mostly its Tyrion as above.

[Black Crow]

BTW: HEY HERETICS,

I've really enjoyed reading many past and current threads. You all have some awesome ideas and are quite inspiring. Thanks especially to Black Crow for all of the effort he has obviously put in over the years to keep Heresy going. I appreciate everyone's responses to my sometimes out there comments and thank you all for helping a new poster get over the fear of posting due to the occasional cruelty shown on some of the general threads. :)

But where is the love? Been posting a couple weeks now and haven't gotten a welcome from any of you. Enough to make a needy girl paranoid! ;)

Apologies dear lady, I've been distracted and posting in haste of late but that's an explanation not an excuse for bad manners.

Welcome to the thread and post away even if it seems a little outre, here we may not agree with each other but we do avoid monstering or patonising those we disagree with.

[LordImp]

Has fire others or the Valyrian demons ever been discussed here? If so which thread ?

[Reposado]

I've noted before that when Tyrion, as he often does, utters the words "oh joy" he means exactly the opposite

I'm sure somebody with an electronic copy and a search function will be able to contradict me but its my recollection that the word joy isn't actually used much in ASoIF and mostly its Tyrion as above.

i only have the physical books, but this seems to work reasonably well

http://asearchoficeandfire.com/

[TheSmallOther]

Has fire others or the Valyrian demons ever been discussed here? If so which thread ?

Not sure, at least I do not recall it (but do not rely on me). Myself I was wondering from time to time if these demons should come into play somehow. At least because I'd like to see more action in Essos concerning biggest threat to the world, instead of "we in Mereen are going to buy more popcorn and watch Westeros doom". Yet I have not much material for such claims, since most of the action is taking place in Westeros and Daenerys herself is planning to move there with her dragons. So most likely GRRM will not have time and space to settle up eastern demons.

I haven't done any search regarding these demons, but it seems that there are only few places when they are mentioned. We have Varys and his lost manhood which was used to summon the demon. And there are Essos' legends about the Long Night, which tell us that LN was started when Night's Lion (one of the gods) was sent to the Planetos to deal with the sins of mankind. He had a bunch of demons with him. And Five Forts in Essos have been built in order to keep Night's Lion and his demons from men (presumably after Long Night).

So while there is a possible connection (perhaps quite a direct one) between demons and Others, I doubt we'll see them in ASOIAF. Unless it just so happen that Others and demons are the same beings, of course.

[Asche]

What's the heretical "consensus" on GRRM stating that https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/ on Daenerys in Meereen is spot on?

[Black Crow]

Heretical concensus :rofl:

[Asche]

I used " " for a reason.

Been lurking for a while now and this interested me.

[wolfmaid7]

I used " " for a reason.

Been lurking for a while now and this interested me.

Welcome Asche from out the shadows. Sadly, you won't get much of a concensus.Again Heresy is the meeting of many minds and not all of them believing the same things on some topics.Is it a particular link? There's a lot of links on the blog,which one exactly?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Wait. Now I am really confused. Are Ned and Arthur babies now? Or are Ned's babies Arthur's? Why would Ned hide beyond the wall, with so many places to hide? Which Ned are we talking now? Wait... is Ned Dayne actually the child of Arthur and Rhaegar? By looks, it would make sense, but biology would have been really messed of. Was the Tower of Joy used to hide Arthur's pregnancy? Was Arthur actually a woman? The Daynes also have magical swords and pale hair and violet eyes. Do you need those to make magical metal?

I am really confused now. :eek:

[Asche]

Welcome Asche from out the shadows. Sadly, you won't get much of a concensus.Again Heresy is the meeting of many minds and not all of them believing the same things on some topics.Is it a particular link? There's a lot of links on the blog,which one exactly?

The ones on Daenerys

[Black Crow]

I used " " for a reason.

Been lurking for a while now and this interested me.

Quite right too. I honestly can't say that anybody has mentioned any of this before and it may or may not be of interest to some people, but asking for a consensus has no chance :cheers: