Spilt Pea Soup Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Okay. I haven't watched all the Inside the Episode stuff. Didn't even notice the cleavage (I'm gay and oblivious). I don't suppose her story is done. We shall see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vastet Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 They needed to make Ramsey less monstrous because there's already a cliche monster: Gregor. There's also the whole bit with Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 They needed to make Ramsey less monstrous because there's already a cliche monster: Gregor. There's also the whole bit with Sansa. stop being an apologist dude. Ramsay is a psychotic psychopath in the books, he's not some misunderstood villian. People like this actually exist in the real world, they are just few in numbers and its not cartoony or cliche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vastet Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I'm not being an apologist. Ramsey in show has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He's a sociopath, plain and simple. The actor does a good job of it too. I've worked in psychiatric hospitals and have a college education in psychology, and his performance is believable. There was no reason to cast a giant ugly brute on top of it. Especially when there's already a giant ugly brute in Gregor Clegane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion I Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I'm not being an apologist. Ramsey in show has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He's a sociopath, plain and simple. The actor does a good job of it too. I've worked in psychiatric hospitals and have a college education in psychology, and his performance is believable. There was no reason to cast a giant ugly brute on top of it. Especially when there's already a giant ugly brute in Gregor Clegane. :agree: Thank you for this post. I have a similar experience when it comes to that. I mean, working with people with psychiatric disorders. And I agree with your post on Ramsay being a sociopath. Highly functioning actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rise Above Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Book Ramsay was just a sadistic wild dog with a powerful name. Show Ramsay is some kind of Hannibal Lector ninja genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehandwipes Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Show Ramsey is "inconsistent" but that doesn't make him "unrealistic", afterall many psychopaths in real life are actually quite capable of being likable charming people when the need calls for it whilst being brutal monsters when they can get away with it. A big difference really is that show Roose is a much different character, less openly "evil" so much as he is ruthless ambitious so Ramsey needs to conceal his psychotic nature from him somewhat. I was referring to the inconsistency of his character, not his personality. His intelligence, charm, motivations, capabilities, and relationships all seem to change depending on the desires of D&D and the plot points they decide to check off. The only consistent part of his character is that he is not frightening, too jokey, too modern, and not particularly funny. You're certainly right that many psychopaths are extremely charming and thus able to blend into society very well. Its also the reason so many serial killers (most psychopaths are not serial killers, but most serial killers are psychopaths) can get away with their crimes for as long as they do. The most successful are extremely careful about choosing victims and not letting the people they live and work with see underneath the "human mask." This is exactly the kind of consistency Ramsay lacks as a character. He may not have to worry about cops, but he should have the sense to worry about his father. And since he is clearly motivated by the desire for legitimacy (as a bastard to be a Bolton, and as a Bolton to succeed his father as Warden of the North) he should be able to see Sansa as the honor she is. She gives the Bolton claim to Winterfell genuine legitimacy and Ramsay and his children better claim over Winterfell than any children his father has with the Frey girl. How many serial killers have been caught after 10 or 20 years only to have their wives and children and neighbors and coworkers say its impossible; he was the kindest or hardest working man they've ever met. That's the kind of functional psychopath that Roose is, that bookRamsay fails to be, and showRamsay approached in season 4. As far as the rape itself is concerned, to me it has nothing to do with delicacy or how graphic it was; and everything to do with the fact that D&D have abandoned all the plot and themes of ASOIAF in favor of pure entertainment. They give us tits and dragons and sword fights cause they know we like these things. And they give us rape even when they have defy logic and turn their characters into morons to do it. Because they think we like rape, and judging from some of the comments I've seen, they're right. That makes it gratuitous smut no matter how graphic it may or may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehandwipes Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I was just re-watching parts of season 3 and 4, and it made me disagree with my original thoughts on show!Ramsay. He doesn't get really bad/annoying until season 5. Prior to season 5 he is very similar to his book counterpart. No he isn't as ugly or orcish as book!Ramsay, yet he is still just as crazy and terrifying. His whole toying with Theon seemed very similar to what book!Ramsay would do. The part where he said "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention!" was gold IMO. As was the "guessing game", allowing Theon to "escape" and pouring water on the floor in front of a thirsty Theon. Apart from his shirtless fight scene against the IB, Season 4 Ramsay was very good as well. The whole creepy dynamic he had while bathing Theon was good, as was his meeting with Roose. During that whole scene he really emanated craving for acceptance, as well as hatred and cruelty ( Im thinking the whole "oh sorry Reek... Robb Stark's dead" part.) Not much talked about, but his little pep talk to Theon before he entered Moat Caillin was good as well " Are you sure your not Theon? you look very much like a lord..... Remember what you are.... and what your not..." That and the whole Lion King scene between him and Roose afterward. Season 5 Ramsay.. while doing cruel things (flaying the lord and wife, flaying the old woman, raping Sansa etc.) just seemed more boring, silly and absurd. He just seemed much more hip, preppy, and"cool" than he was before, and I think it kind of brought the whole thing down. His whole gleeful,jabbering speech at dinner didn't seem very medieval or in Ramsay's character. Just my additional two cents To me, Theon and Ramsay were the worst parts of season 3. First off, it was filler. After all the important parts of ASOIAF they didn't cover, giving us poorly written filler is just exasperating. But it also failed in the only thing an introduction to Ramsay Snow ought to do, be frightening. Torture Porn is the lowest form of horror in my opinion, but if you're going to try to make me sick, then really try. Theon and Ramsay in season 3 was as exciting as watching Hostel on network television. And D&D didn't even try to take the story seriously. The actual castration scene was used as an excuse for pointless T&A and more stupid jokes. Why should I care about what's happening to Theon if the people writing clearly think its funny? Why should I take anything they write seriously if a castration scene is just the setup for another stupid joke? But finally, they failed to show the transformation from Theon to Reek. Ramsay could have punched Theon in the face till he said he was Reek in the first episode, so why bother with any of that? The actual transformation from Theon to Reek took place between season 3 and 4, so all they accomplished is showing us their limitations as writers. They failed to make Ramsay interesting, they failed to scare me, and they failed at character development. Reek and Ramsay was actually one of my favorite parts of season 4. All Roose's scenes were great, Alfie was fantastic as Reek, and Ramsay was far more interesting when he was less jokey. The worst part was definitely Asha's stupid rescue and the introduction to the Ramsay Sue character he becomes in season 5. It would have better to leave out all of Ramsay and Theon in season 3. Better to leave it up to our imagination than give us pointless watered down torture porn. Use the hunt to introduce us to Ramsay. Its impossible for me at this point to say GOT needs more nudity and more violence against women than we already have. But whatever you do with the hunt, make it genuinely frightening and establish Reek and Ramsay as characters before Roose's return. Then the rest of their part in season 4 could play out pretty much the same but without Asha. IMO that would have been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa0527 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The cool likable villain is such a Hollywood cliché that of course D&D were going to try their hand at it. And when its done well, its a lot of fun, but Ramsay isn't done well and cliché makes it hard to believe what you're seeing. Handsome or not, Ramsay should be someone you hate to hate, someone who makes you're skin crawl. He does make my skin crawl! The fact that he can occasionally be funny or charming only adds to his intense psychopathy and creepiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathYon Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Iwan is a great actor and does a pretty decent job at portraying Ramsay... but he's no way near as terrifying as his book counterpart. I think a lot of this boils down to some shoddy writing and poor casting I've always thought of book Ramsay is similar to something out of a horror movie. A good horror monster isn't something that we see constantly, we witness it's terror through the character's (Theon) fear and paranoia, and once they do appear it's very intense. The problem with the show is that we can't exactly hear what Theon is thinking, so D&D have resorted to constantly give Ramsay screen time which has ultimately made me not enjoy this character like I have with Joffrey, book Ramsay, Tywin, book Gregor etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Book Ramsay was just a sadistic wild dog with a powerful name. Show Ramsay is some kind of Hannibal Lector ninja genius. "A Beast in Human Skin", Lord Wyman Manderly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The Reek and Ramsay Show™ I agree. These people do really exist and are highly adept at deception, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spilt Pea Soup Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's pretty clear that Book Ramsay is too over the top and cliche to have ever worked on the television show and Show Ramsay is an improvement on that front. Had the two characters been reversed, we'd have the *clear consensus* be that George's character was much more nuanced and realistic and the show character is just a silly monster stereotype. Watching people defend that book character on this thread has been mildly entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's pretty clear that Book Ramsay is too over the top and cliche to have ever worked on the television show and Show Ramsay is an improvement on that front. Had the two characters been reversed, we'd have the *clear consensus* be that George's character was much more nuanced and realistic and the show character is just a silly monster stereotype. Watching people defend that book character on this thread has been mildly entertaining. There is nothing nuanced or realistic about show Ramsay. Not only does he have remarkable combat prowess, tactical knowhow, a woman who loves him and the loyalty of his men, Ramsay of the show lacks any of the psychological depth of his book counterpart.. Ramsay is supposed to have a chip on his shoulder, a hideous relationship with both his father and his mother, the disgust of everyone around him. He is a little cartoonish and I am happy to argue that GRRM went a little too far with him, but to say that the show version is any better is dubious. Show Ramsay is a transparent attempt on the part of the show runners to replace Joffrey in the "awful character we all hate" position. But Joffrey is a coward in a position of power - he bears some similarity to real life, because we all know "that one child" who is an absolute shit which is why it's so terrifying when he is given ludicrous amounts of power over life and death. Psychosis has it's drawbacks - except in the case of show Ramsay it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Show Ramsay is a transparent attempt on the part of the show runners to replace Joffrey in the "awful character we all hate" position. But Joffrey is a coward in a position of power - he bears some similarity to real life, because we all know "that one child" who is an absolute shit which is why it's so terrifying when he is given ludicrous amounts of power over life and death. ^This pulls unlike Ramsey Joffery had a logical reason to survive as long as he did making his hate-able greater but from a story stand point it seems no reason other the writer bias that Ramsey is still alive at the end of this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Survivor92 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 To me, Theon and Ramsay were the worst parts of season 3. First off, it was filler. After all the important parts of ASOIAF they didn't cover, giving us poorly written filler is just exasperating. But it also failed in the only thing an introduction to Ramsay Snow ought to do, be frightening. Torture Porn is the lowest form of horror in my opinion, but if you're going to try to make me sick, then really try. Theon and Ramsay in season 3 was as exciting as watching Hostel on network television. And D&D didn't even try to take the story seriously. The actual castration scene was used as an excuse for pointless T&A and more stupid jokes. Why should I care about what's happening to Theon if the people writing clearly think its funny? Why should I take anything they write seriously if a castration scene is just the setup for another stupid joke? But finally, they failed to show the transformation from Theon to Reek. Ramsay could have punched Theon in the face till he said he was Reek in the first episode, so why bother with any of that? The actual transformation from Theon to Reek took place between season 3 and 4, so all they accomplished is showing us their limitations as writers. They failed to make Ramsay interesting, they failed to scare me, and they failed at character development. Reek and Ramsay was actually one of my favorite parts of season 4. All Roose's scenes were great, Alfie was fantastic as Reek, and Ramsay was far more interesting when he was less jokey. The worst part was definitely Asha's stupid rescue and the introduction to the Ramsay Sue character he becomes in season 5. It would have better to leave out all of Ramsay and Theon in season 3. Better to leave it up to our imagination than give us pointless watered down torture porn. Use the hunt to introduce us to Ramsay. Its impossible for me at this point to say GOT needs more nudity and more violence against women than we already have. But whatever you do with the hunt, make it genuinely frightening and establish Reek and Ramsay as characters before Roose's return. Then the rest of their part in season 4 could play out pretty much the same but without Asha. IMO that would have been better. I agree. It would have been better if they had shown us how Theon would be captured. Then at the end of the season we see a flashback to that moment and then Reek is introduced. Then it would be up to your imagination what has happened to Theon and what could cause such a transformation, which is a lot more frightening then showing it on screen. We fear the unknown. I am aware that television is a different medium than a book but I don't see how this wouldn't work. Alfie Allen is still pretty recognizable as Reek and if they're really worried that the audience won't get it, they can just give us very brief flashbacks to torture scenes without giving away too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I think the Ramsey sections have been the weakest, most exploitatitve part of the show since he was introduced. The torture scenes went on far too long and the scenes of Theon becoming Reek just felt like Torture Porn. I've always had a problem with them. But then Book Ramsey was always incredibly one note too. Thats not much of an excuse though, there would have been plenty of opportunity to improve on Book Ramsey and make him more interesting. It feels like they saw Heath Ledgers Joker and assumed that was the way to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyBazooka Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I think show Ramsay is at his best whenever he's angry (like in S4E02 when Roose tells him "you're not a bolton, you're a snow" and "I place far too much trust in you" Ramsay looks like he's going to explode, or his immediate reaction in S5E05 when he finds out Fat Walda is pregnant - moments like those really remind of book ramsay) or yearning for his father's acceptance (mainly in S4E08 when he takes Moat Cailin and gets legitimised). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Maybe they cast Ramsay as someone who is more attactive so they could make the marriage to Sansa which they admit to planning behind the scenes since season 2 look more feasable. If they cast Ramsay like he appears in the books, kinda like an Ogre, there is no way anyone would buy into Fansa (tv Sansa) saying the words "I take this man". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spilt Pea Soup Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I don't find him that attractive. He's Hollywood ugly. Hot body, but features don't quite add up to handsome. Theon also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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