Show Ramsay v. Book Ramsay?

[ummester]

I agree, Reek/Theon's story was the best thing in ADWD to me. And I don't know how ASOIAF will play out, but the Winterfell arc in ADWD was definitely Theon's story and I'm just shocked that they would butcher it like that to make Ramsay the lead.

Was it really Theon's story, or did it just feel that way because Theon was the POV?

We have only really seen Ramsay, in book, from Theon's POV - of course Ramsay is going to seem like a monster to Theon. It's like of course the harpy are going to seem like bad guys to Dany, or of course Robb is going to seem more righteous to Cat and, of course, the Others are going to seem scary from any human POV, because they are not human - every book characters POV has a bias in it, the show can't show that bias, or hide certain realities - because it isn't a POV presentation.

Note that I am not saying that show Ramsay is accurate to book Ramsay, especially not in looks - but we probably don't have a fully accurate beat on book Ramsay because of Theon's POV bias. Ramsay might be more charming than Theon perceives him, for instance because 1) It would be hard to see someone who removed your penis in a positive light and 2) There might be some people Ramsay treats well and Theon just doesn't see it.

[thehandwipes]

^No, it was definitely Theon's story.

I know all about unreliable narrators and POV biases, and I can't believe you actually just argued that Ramsay is misunderstood. We've had plenty of characters express their thoughts about him.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Was it really Theon's story, or did it just feel that way because Theon was the POV?

We have only really seen Ramsay, in book, from Theon's POV - of course Ramsay is going to seem like a monster to Theon. It's like of course the harpy are going to seem like bad guys to Dany, or of course Robb is going to seem more righteous to Cat and, of course, the Others are going to seem scary from any human POV, because they are not human - every book characters POV has a bias in it, the show can't show that bias, or hide certain realities - because it isn't a POV presentation.

Note that I am not saying that show Ramsay is accurate to book Ramsay, especially not in looks - but we probably don't have a fully accurate beat on book Ramsay because of Theon's POV bias. Ramsay might be more charming than Theon perceives him, for instance because 1) It would be hard to see someone who removed your penis in a positive light and 2) There might be some people Ramsay treats well and Theon just doesn't see it.

Theon's the protagonist not only because he's the character telling us through his lens, but because he's the character that goes through the arc and especially, a character we're invested and we've know since GOT. Ramsay's the one that should service Theon's story, not the other way around.

The opposite is Areo's POV, and you can notice it right away.

[ummester]

^No, it was definitely Theon's story.

I know all about unreliable narrators and POV biases, and I can't believe you actually just argued that Ramsay is misunderstood. We've had plenty of characters express their thoughts about him.

I don't trust anything in the ASoIaF narrative, it's too open to interpretation.

I don't think Ramsay is a nice guy but I also think that the storytelling is deliberately devised to promote emotional conflict in the reader and foreshadow just about everything, so any surprise is possible.

[thehandwipes]

^any surprise except ramsay turns out to be a great guy.

and it doesn't matter if ramsay was curing cancer in the background and we missed it, the winterfell arc was about theon, from beginning to end, and it was fantastic. in the show, it was about ramsay, and it sucked.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't trust anything in the ASoIaF narrative, it's too open to interpretation.

I don't think Ramsay is a nice guy but I also think that the storytelling is deliberately devised to promote emotional conflict in the reader and foreshadow just about everything, so any surprise is possible.

I guess Ramsay Bolton crossed that line when he brutally raped Jeyne Poole and made Theon participate, or that time he flayed everyone in Winterfell. Ah, that time he made his wife eat her own fingers! Oh, but maybe he's just misunderstood.

This shouldn't be a debate. There's no moral ambiguity in Ramsay Bolton. He's just who he is. Although POVs are unreliable in their memories and perceptions, they don't outright lie to us. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a narrative. Ramsay's a monster. That's it. There's no emotional conflict about it.

^any surprise except ramsay turns out to be a great guy.

and it doesn't matter if ramsay was curing cancer in the background and we missed it, the winterfell arc was about theon, from beginning to end, and it was fantastic. in the show, it was about ramsay, and it sucked.

Exactly. Theon's the character we are invested in, he's our buy-in in the books. The arc is about re-claiming his identity and empathizing with a girl that's in a even worst situation than him, all that whilst we have, as supporting characters, Ramsay Bolton as 'The Monster', the Northern Lords secretly plotting the downfall of House Bolton. That's what It was supposed to be.

In the show, the only plot point they kept was that Ramsay's bride gets raped. That's it.

[ummester]

I'm not debating that Ramsay will turn out to be a nice guy - just pointing out that our interpretation of him in book is biased by Theon's POV. Ramsay isn't a nice guy in show or in book.

I read him as this kind of pasty, thuggish and ugly lump of flesh - an obvious monster. Book Ramsay and Jeyne was an inch away from bestiality, like a gorilla with a human woman :D Show Rasay feels a lot more human to me. Cruel human, for sure - but human.

[Primalsplit]

What does Ramsay need to take the iron throne?

20 good episodes :lol:

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I don't think I ever got a good sense of who Ramsey was in the books, he always just seemed to be a standard mental maniac, he didn't exactly have a personality apart from just being cruel.


But having said that, I've hated his casting since day one. There is something completely wrong about the performance. Its too 'modern' if you ask me. He's too hip and jokey and doesn't sit at all well within a medieval context. I don't find him in the least bit believable.

I don't even care that he is a super ninja, that is fine, I think peoples complaints about that are overblown.

If the performance was a bit more realistic and had more depth then I doubt there would as many complaining about his screen time.

[Primalsplit]

I don't even care that he is a super ninja, that is fine, I think peoples complaints about that are overblown.

Actually, the reason why people have a problem with this too has to do with that medieval context. Ramsay is a bastard, but he is not castle raised. Him being a great fighter and a great military commander, let alone super ninja, in a feudal society is simply absurd.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Actually, the reason why people have a problem with this too has to do with that medieval context. Ramsay is a bastard, but he is not castle raised. Him being a great fighter and a great military commander, let alone super ninja, in a feudal society is simply absurd.

Is that actually the case in the show? Roose brought him up from a baby, why wouldn't he be raised in a castle? Plus someone as determined and single minded as Ramsey could easily have learnt fighting skills if he'd wished to.

[Lord Eddard]

I like both versions of Ramsay, book and show. In the show, I like the look of him, his face is like that of an evil, twisted hobbit, if this makes any sense! :)

[Primalsplit]

Is that actually the case in the show? Roose brought him up from a baby, why wouldn't he be raised in a castle? Plus someone as determined and single minded as Ramsey could easily have learnt fighting skills if he'd wished to.

Well... I'm getting a bored with show not being the same with books. It just is tiresome. Nevertheless, I don't remember if Ramsay's childhood was mentioned in the show. If we assume they share the same background, Ramsay just has to be so extremely genius and competent to catch up with the skill level those of top commanders, fighters and... thieves/assassins? 2 years prior to war of five kings do not really leave much room for practice. A millers boy outsmarting one of the best battle commander in Westeros in military, fighting off versus some of the 50 top killers from iron islands shirtless, sneaking into a camp with 20 good men like a hashashin... It is not even likely for a castle raised highlord to be so adept at everything. Of course, if you have a problem with anachronism you can easily include these as well.

If he's castle trained in show... well I still wouldn't expect a freaking ninja.

I like both versions of Ramsay, book and show. In the show, I like the look of him, his face is like that of an evil, twisted hobbit, if this makes any sense! :)

Haha imagine he would be trusted with being the ring bearer. He would just (ab)use the invisibility power to torture, raid, rape until ringwraiths come to claim him. Which of course he would flay with a dragonglass knife since he is Azor Ahai too.

[Lord Eddard]

Haha imagine he would be trusted with being the ring bearer. He would just (ab)use the invisibility power to torture, raid, rape until ringwraiths come to claim him. Which of course he would flay with a dragonglass knife since he is Azor Ahai too.

Haha, dark Frodo, the bane of the Shire! :D When he's done with Rosie, Sam can have the leftovers. No honestly, this guy gives me the creeps, he has such a twisted face *shudder*

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Well... I'm getting a bored with show not being the same with books. It just is tiresome. Nevertheless, I don't remember if Ramsay's childhood was mentioned in the show. If we assume they share the same background, Ramsay just has to be so extremely genius and competent to catch up with the skill level those of top commanders, fighters and... thieves/assassins? 2 years prior to war of five kings do not really leave much room for practice. A millers boy outsmarting one of the best battle commander in Westeros in military, fighting off versus some of the 50 top killers from iron islands shirtless, sneaking into a camp with 20 good men like a hashashin... It is not even likely for a castle raised highlord to be so adept at everything. Of course, if you have a problem with anachronism you can easily include these as well.

If he's castle trained in show... well I still wouldn't expect a freaking ninja.

Haha imagine he would be trusted with being the ring bearer. He would just (ab)use the invisibility power to torture, raid, rape until ringwraiths come to claim him. Which of course he would flay with a dragonglass knife since he is Azor Ahai too.

Well... I'm getting a bored with show not being the same with books. It just is tiresome. Nevertheless, I don't remember if Ramsay's childhood was mentioned in the show. If we assume they share the same background, Ramsay just has to be so extremely genius and competent to catch up with the skill level those of top commanders, fighters and... thieves/assassins? 2 years prior to war of five kings do not really leave much room for practice. A millers boy outsmarting one of the best battle commander in Westeros in military, fighting off versus some of the 50 top killers from iron islands shirtless, sneaking into a camp with 20 good men like a hashashin... It is not even likely for a castle raised highlord to be so adept at everything. Of course, if you have a problem with anachronism you can easily include these as well.

If he's castle trained in show... well I still wouldn't expect a freaking ninja.

Haha imagine he would be trusted with being the ring bearer. He would just (ab)use the invisibility power to torture, raid, rape until ringwraiths come to claim him. Which of course he would flay with a dragonglass knife since he is Azor Ahai too.

Ok well in the show he was raised from a baby. That was established. To call him a Ninja or super warrior is silly too.

The scenes you mention whilst a little over the top are still possible. He chased Theons sister off by setting dogs on her after she realised Theon wasn't coming with her. That he was able to fight some iron men isn't out of the realm of possibility if he was trained. Hes also a psycho who loves violence.

Sneaking into the camp is also possible, though exaggerated I'll admit. He knows the North better than Stannis, Stannis wasn't expecting such an attack, plus his men are mercs and freezing cold and maybe not at their best.

It is a bit of a stretch but I don't wildly hate it like some.

[Lord Eddard]

Sneaking into the camp is also possible, though exaggerated I'll admit. He knows the North better than Stannis, Stannis wasn't expecting such an attack, plus his men are mercs and freezing cold and maybe not at their best.

It is a bit of a stretch but I don't wildly hate it like some.

This is even addressed in the show as Stannis complains about the sloppiness of his guards:

"Either they were slepping or in league with the attackers. Find out and then hang them"

is what he said if I remember correctly. Stannis wouldn't be the first commander in military history to have been surprised by an enemy who knows the lay of the land.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Ok well in the show he was raised from a baby. That was established. To call him a Ninja or super warrior is silly too.

The scenes you mention whilst a little over the top are still possible. He chased Theons sister off by setting dogs on her after she realised Theon wasn't coming with her. That he was able to fight some iron men isn't out of the realm of possibility if he was trained. Hes also a psycho who loves violence.

Sneaking into the camp is also possible, though exaggerated I'll admit. He knows the North better than Stannis, Stannis wasn't expecting such an attack, plus his men are mercs and freezing cold and maybe not at their best.

It is a bit of a stretch but I don't wildly hate it like some.

No, his raid on Stannis's camp was not 'possible'.

He has zero reason to know 'the North' between Winterfell and Castle Black better than Stannis. It very likely he never saw that terrain in his life, unless you think he made frequent visits to Castle Black. Stannis was encamped on either Stark or Umber territory, so his 'familiarity' with the terrain is a bad justification.

Those same 'freezing' mercs would've meant freezing everything, making starting fires almost impossible without a decent amount of time, and brining fire into the camp from beyond the perimeter should have been impossible without alerting the camp. Again, ridiculous that they could bypass multiple sets of guards and have time to start fires in a freezing blizzard.

Seasoned battle commanders on the march against their enemy always expect an attack, or they aren't seasoned. This is also ludicrous.

You can like 80s action hero Ramsey, that's your perogative, but claiming he is anything but immersion breaking for a show that is supposed to be based in gritty realism is simply not reasonable.

[WSmith84]

No, his raid on Stannis's camp was not 'possible'.

He has zero reason to know 'the North' between Winterfell and Castle Black better than Stannis. It very likely he never saw that terrain in his life, unless you think he made frequent visits to Castle Black. Stannis was encamped on either Stark or Umber territory, so his 'familiarity' with the terrain is a bad justification.

Those same 'freezing' mercs would've meant freezing everything, making starting fires almost impossible without a decent amount of time, and brining fire into the camp from beyond the perimeter should have been impossible without alerting the camp. Again, ridiculous that they could bypass multiple sets of guards and have time to start fires in a freezing blizzard.

Seasoned battle commanders on the march against their enemy always expect an attack, or they aren't seasoned. This is also ludicrous.

You can like 80s action hero Ramsey, that's your perogative, but claiming he is anything but immersion breaking for a show that is supposed to be based in gritty realism is simply not reasonable.

Not to mention that Ramsey and his 20 men managed to burn all the siege weapons, a bunch of stores and kill 100 horses without getting caught or killed. How? Surely, when your men are starving, the stores would be one of the most heavily guarded areas in your camp? And they had to start a fire (actually several simultaneously from what we saw) in the freezing cold, at night, without getting seen. Unless of course they stole a torch inside the camp. But then of course there would be no way to remain unseen, because you'd be holding a light source in the pitch black. Everyone would be able to see you.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Not to mention that Ramsey and his 20 men managed to burn all the siege weapons, a bunch of stores and kill 100 horses without getting caught or killed. How? Surely, when your men are starving, the stores would be one of the most heavily guarded areas in your camp? And they had to start a fire (actually several simultaneously from what we saw) in the freezing cold, at night, without getting seen. Unless of course they stole a torch inside the camp. But then of course there would be no way to remain unseen, because you'd be holding a light source in the pitch black. Everyone would be able to see you.

I agree it seems like both food and fire would be heavily guarded. In fact, in freezing weather its likely every fire is either being huddled around for warmth. And torches would work the way you pointed out, so the whole thing just does not compute in anything but an action show. If this happened in Xena or Legend of the Seeker I might buy it, but last time I checked Game of Thrones was not aspiring to be those shows.

[WSmith84]

I agree it seems like both food and fire would be heavily guarded. In fact, in freezing weather its likely every fire is either being huddled around for warmth. And torches would work the way you pointed out, so the whole thing just does not compute in anything but an action show. If this happened in Xena or Legend of the Seeker I might buy it, but last time I checked Game of Thrones was not aspiring to be those shows.

Exactly. Game of Thrones is meant to be a gritty and realistic fantasy drama. That's what attracted me to it in the first place. The characters were consistent and their actions had consequences that made sense. I don't remember who said it, but Game of Thrones used to be a show where the writers wouldn't cheat to have the good guys win. Now it's a show where the writers cheat to have the bad guys win.