Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Black Hole Moon

[Durran Durrandon]

"Fire-wight" is not a term used in the book, merely one of convenience to mean "fire resurrected dead." Clearly, they do not function the same way as the cold wights. We don't have to call them fire-wights if that is creating confusion. We tend to agree on that there is a huge difference, that Beric is resurrected and the cold wights are animated meat sacks, for all intents and purposes. I'm not even sure our semantic differences about the mechanics here will even come into play. For the purposes of my essay, the main point is that fire magic transforms blood into black blood, and that this burned black blood is what explains the greasy black stone.

So yeah, I was writing in a rush on my phone last night abd didn't include my usual litany of qualifiers. I do however take it as a given that we are being speculative, but I feel like the Beric has no soul thing is getting heavily accepted without much support.

And agreed, I think we are arguing over metaphysical distinctions that won't make a real difference in the story. But damn it, only seven angels can dance on the end of a pin and there is no textual evidence that eight angels can fit!

As to specific points Mirri Maz Duur has summoned shadows. They do her will, presumably because they are bound to her will in some way in the same sense that the shadows Mel has birthed are bound to her will. However, there are no shadows involved in Thoros' ritual.

In Christian theology, no one presumes that Lazarus has no soul because Jesus raised him from the dead. A distinction is made between the soul, the self, and spirit, meaning purpose,but there is no correlation with spirit and ghost. That isn't the meaning of spirit in this context. Importantly, I don't think GRRM has made a distinction between ghosts and souls. Moreover, Thoros specifically says the fire went into Beric's heart and soul, which presumes that he has a soul. Is his soul or self being convinced by the flame, presumably yes. Is it happening faster than with Mel due to the resurrection, likely. Is it happening without magical training sure. We have very little evidence that Mel has strong memories of her early life, one fleeting memory. She seems to be very old and the transformation seems to have preserved her past her natural life. So she abd Beric share a post-natural life existence, have fire blood, don't need to eat or sleep. They are very similar,but neither are dead like a wight.

[LmL]

I follow all that Durran. Your explanation as far as MMD binding shadows by summoning them and commanding them makes sense, I buy that as plausible.

I missed the quote from Thoros about going into Beric's heart and soul - that's interesting. I am coming up to that part in my re read.

Any chance I can get your take on the question I posed above about bloodstone and Valyrian steel?

[Durran Durrandon]

Hey everyone, I have a general question about the Valyrian steel, Lightbringer, and the black bloodstone.

Ned's sword drinks the light, as we saw in that scene with Oathkeeper and Tyrion. Most of you know that I tend to think that Ned's sword is unique, that it is the original "dark" Lightbringer of Azor Ahai. BUT, if it is not - and I am far from convinced about this either way - then I suspect what is happening is that ALL Valyrian steel blades are made with black bloodstone.

I have an essay forthcoming about the names of every Valyrian steel sword, and the lore surrounding each one. They all have hints about Lightbringer / the comet moon collision, similar to the case of Nightfall which I examined in the essay. All of them.

What does this mean, though? Is George simply using the modern dragonsteel to give us clues about Lightbringer? Ned's sword is the only one anyone has ever tried to change the color of, that we hear about. I do think Tobho has colored valyrian steel, because he speaks as though he has experience doing that very thing. There is a sword called Red Rain, which seems to imply a red steel sword, but it is not specified in the text. Ned's sword exhibits the strange, two layer behavior, where one layer drinks the light, turning crimson to dark blood red, and the other layer stays black, taking no coloring at all. All three of these things are unusual:

• two distinct layers that do not mix
• one layer takes no coloring whatsoever (black / very dark grey)
• the other layer drinks the light and darkens the coloring to blood red

I analyze this as such: Tobho is using techniques and "spells" specifically designed to color valyrian steel. The layer which takes the coloring, the red layer, must be a type of steel, likely similar to Valyrian steel. But something is odd about it - it drinks the light. This, to me, indicates the bloodstone presence. I think the dark red layer is steel made from a bloodstone meteor, or a steel - bloodstone alloy of some kind. The other layer, the one which takes no effect from the coloring, must not be steel, right? I have always been a believer in Radio Westeros's theory that Lightbringer = LH dragonsteel, and that it contains dragon glass. So, this almost black layer would probably be the dragon glass, or the dragon glass-infused steel. Bloodstone is like frozen shadow fire, the opposite of dragon glass as frozen fire, so it seems possible the two substances do not mix.

But because we have never seen another V steel sword dissected, we can't know if this would happen with any of them. :bang:

In the scenario where Ned's sword is typical of V steel, and is not Lightbringer, then I am tempted to think that the Valyrians discovered bloodstone meteors, and this is what enabled them to make valyrian steel. The reason all the V Steel swords have Lightbringer hints might be because they are all made the same way that Lightbringer was. This way, Oathkeeper can still become a new Lightbringer, and all the red and black imagery around the sword and all the morningstar imagery around Brienne can still make sense; the sword can still take red and black fire just as I think the original LB did, etc. Both scenarios make most of the symbolism work pretty well.

Which scenario seems more likely?

The Valyrians would have probably discovered this bloodstone at the Isle of Toads, which is right next to Gorgossos, where the Valyrians had a slave colony, and built a fused stone fortress. They took it from Ghis, and it survived after the Doom for 77 years before the "red death" descended upon them. That means Gorgossos was up and running for 5,00 years, which is horrible to think about. That's also the one confirmed location where we know animal-human interbreeding was performed, which I have always suspected involved that black bloodstone. Heebie-jeebies much? Point being, the may eventually have tried using bloodstone meteor rock to make swords, and called it a eureka! moment.

When did the Valyrians start making V Steel swords? The oldest sword on record we have is about 500-600 years ago, which is only 100-200 years before the Doom. Valyria had existed for 5,000 years, taming the 14 fires and enslaving millions and doing all their dragon magic... and then, shortly after they might have started making V Steel, the whole thing blew up. I do buy the idea that the Faceless Men were involved, but that is probably not the sole cause. If the bloodstone was the special sauce in the Valyrian Steel Swords, then... it may have had something to do with the big explosion, or the possible descent into madness and internal strife which destabilized the empire and enabled the FM to assassinate mages or whatever.

Look what happened to Asshai.. very similar to Valyria. Asshai may well have been totally uninhabitable, as Valyria is now, 400 years after the LN disaster. It's 8,000 years to cool down.. and it is still very toxic. Valyria might just be in the early stages of a similar disaster. I'm not saying Valyria got hit by a comet, but the interaction of fire magic, human sacrifice, bloodstone meteors, and the 14 fires may have been combustable.

Which makes more sense in terms of ramifications for the main plot of the story? Which one feels closer to the truth? :dunno:

Short answer, yes.

That is, giving what you have written on the subject, I have had the same exact question.

And given the fire drinking nature of possibly all Valyrian steel blades might Jon shoving Longclaw have same sword igniting effect as say Brienne shoving Oathkeeper through LSH's heart.

[Durran Durrandon]

I follow all that Durran. Your explanation as far as MMD binding shadows by summoning them and commanding them makes sense, I buy that as plausible.

I missed the quote from Thoros about going into Beric's heart and soul - that's interesting. I am coming up to that part in my re read.

"I gave him the good gods own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul." SoS 587

[LmL]

"I gave him the good gods own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul." SoS 587

That is really strong evidence in your favor, I must admit. I might have to stop asserting that he does not have a soul! Perhaps the way we should look at it is that he has a piece of his soul, in the way that Stannis's life force is diminished as Melisandre peels off bits of his shadow (soul?) to make her shadowbaby assassins.

[LmL]

Short answer, yes.

That is, giving what you have written on the subject, I have had the same exact question.

And given the fire drinking nature of possibly all Valyrian steel blades might Jon shoving Longclaw have same sword igniting effect as say Brienne shoving Oathkeeper through LSH's heart.

This would create the possibility of multiple people with flaming red swords. Do you think that is something Martin would do? I would think is possible, certainly. It's possible the original 13 of the NW all had them. Who knows.

I'm all for more magic, fuck it. Let peole complain. Bring on the dragons and flaming swords, I say.

[Durran Durrandon]

This would create the possibility of multiple people with flaming red swords. Do you think that is something Martin would do? I would think is possible, certainly. It's possible the original 13 of the NW all had them. Who knows.

I'm all for more magic, fuck it. Let peole complain. Bring on the dragons and flaming swords, I say.

Thirteen or maybe just three? Dies anyone but Jon have ared sword dream. I know Jaime has the pale flaming sword dream?

[Durran Durrandon]

Anyone with a Valyrian sword who shanks an advanced fire priest gets to be AAR. You get to be AAR! And you get to be AAR! We all get to be AAR!

[LmL]

Anyone with a Valyrian sword who shanks an advanced fire priest gets to be AAR. You get to be AAR! And you get to be AAR! We all get to be AAR!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Nozlym]

ive wondered if the flaming sword is just a metaphor for a valyrian steel sword since its made from dragon fire

just like dragons are metaphorical for targaryens

beric literally lighting his sword on fire would be what people expect it to be, but is just a red herring. george trying to throw a curve ball at us.

just trying to stick to the thinking of reading prophecies and dont think to literal

[LmL]

Thirteen or maybe just three? Dies anyone but Jon have ared sword dream. I know Jaime has the pale flaming sword dream?

Jaime has the dream of two blue and silver flaming swords - this to me represents the split comet before it turned red. The Twinds are the same symbol - two blue and grey towers. Rob's forces split at the Twins in the middle of an astronomy metaphor. But anyway. Jaime. And by extension, Brienne. Jamie also manifests some Last Hero symbolism - the LH may or may not be AA.

Brienne of course wields Oathkeeper and is sacrificing people to weirwoods with it. She has Morningstar symbolism, which essentially = AA symbolism. She symbolically kills her love, Renly (being accused of killing him = killing him for the purposes of making the metaphor), and takes his sword, again in the middle of heavy AA symbolism. There's also her use of Oathkeeper at the Whispers after hearing the AA parallel story of Ser Galladon.

Davos is reborn from the sea amidst salt and smoke, and he chases the shadows a couple of times. His shadow is like a sword on the painted table, which I interpret as AA symbolism (shadow sword = dark LB). He plays the role of comet with Edric Storm in that same chapter full of AA symbolism.

Dany changed from moon maiden to AA reborn, "the last dragon" at the end of AGOT. Her dragons are a manifestation of Lightbringer.

Lastly, Arya. Yes, Arya. Her symbolism is very interesting. She, like Jon, plays the role of Azor Ahai (check out the dragon skull scenes in AGOT), the Stranger, Lion of Night, and comet. I am really looking forward to doing an Arya archetype essay, her chapters at Harrenhall are just awesome sauce for astronomy metaphor.

That's my list, although Mithras I believe sees some AA imagery and Sam as well.

[Daendrew]

I'm trying to find the quote you had that went something like a sword plunging through the earth. Do you know what I mean?

[LmL]

This one?

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered,thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea god’s temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them. {…}

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sided pillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire. (ACOK, Theon)

[Daendrew]

This one?

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered,thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea gods temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them. {}

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sided pillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire. (ACOK, Theon)

Yes thank you. Hammer and sword in one passage. Great

[Durran Durrandon]

ive wondered if the flaming sword is just a metaphor for a valyrian steel sword since its made from dragon fire

just like dragons are metaphorical for targaryens

beric literally lighting his sword on fire would be what people expect it to be, but is just a red herring. george trying to throw a curve ball at us.

just trying to stick to the thinking of reading prophecies and dont think to literal

I would be more inclined to think this way if Aemon hadn't seemed to be taking it seriously to the point of challenging the legitimacy of Stanis' Lightbringer based on it not giving of heat, and leaving Jon a copy of the Jade Compendium to make his point.

[LmL]

Yes thank you. Hammer and sword in one passage. Great

Yup, that's a tasty one. The reason you couldn't find it is because it's not in this essay, but the next one which is only on my website. It has all the relevant hammer of the waters / lightning / Ironborn quotes you might want.

A Thousand Eyes and One Hammer

[LmL]

I was reading through my copy of Graham Hancock's Heaven's Mirror and I came across something very interesting: one particular avatar of Vishnu, meaning one of the many forms Vishnu incarnates into at the end of various world ages to destroy and remake the universe. One of them is a fellow named Kalki. Kalki is prophesied to manifest at the end of this world age to punish the wicked and bring the apocalypse (he does shelter the righteous, so there is that).

Hancock quotes from the Bhagavata Purana to tell us about Kalki: he comes riding a white horse and "holding a sword blazing like a comet." What's he going to do with that comet? "Then he will destroy the world. Later, from the ruins of the earth, a new mankind will rise."

Sounds very like the Gochir comet dragon which comes to destroy and purify at the same time. That's exactly the dual effect fire magic has in ASOIAF - sometimes, it cooks blood and turns it black, but it also purifies in certain scenes. Quetzalcoatl, another comet-associated Morningstar deity, also is intricately tied to the end of world ages and creative destruction.

I find this all tremendously interesting, and it really starts to bring into focus what George is doing with these comets. That comet will strike the remaining moon (hypothesis) and unleash chaos, but it will be a necessary destruction which will wipe the slate clean for something new to be born - a dream of spring.

[_Arthur_Dayne_]

"The First Men wielded bronze swords."

"Daynes are First Men" (GeoDawnians is a better definition? "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days.")

"You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?"

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

How the first Dayne forged the sword?

GeoDawnians had surely notions about sword making, but... Daynes had a sword like Dawn and in the meantime people around had only bronze sword?!

It's strange that a so unique sword has a "fuzzy story" and a "illustrious history" at the same time.

Dawn is absolutely relevant. I'll look forward to George's revelation!

[LmL]

I think George tries to intentionally create of fog of history by answering things in vague terms. in general, I get the sense that he wants us to figure things out from the info in the books. He's been very intentional as far as just what to reveal to us and how, and answering questions specifically can ruin that.

I DO think Dawn goes back to the Long Night era. It's completely anarchronistic - it's clearly different sword smithing technology than the First Men have. To me this supports the idea that the Daynes have a non-Westerosi origin. Battle Isle fused stone fortress, purple eye / silver hair genes popping up in the Dayne family, and an inexplicably advanced and probably magical sword.

What's really interesting is Jaime's weirwood stump dream, where he dreams of he and Brienne holding swords of silvery-blue flame. In the dream it says the swords took fire with color of their steel, so the swords had a silvery-blue flame.

But where did this dream, and this image, come from? If the dream, and therefore the image of silver blue fire swords, came from the weirwood stump (or by extension BR working through the stump), then that means the trees have a memory of silver blue fire swords. That's pretty damn interesting, wouldn't you say? Where and when did the weirwoods see fire swords like that?

Perhaps the "pale fire" swords of the Great Empire of the Dawn kingly ghosts Dany saw in her dream are a match to silver blue flame - it's unclear. If so, the sword Dawn may well be GEotD tech from BEFORE Azor Ahai made his "dark" Lightbringer. That fits with the Daynes being GEotD descendents, although it means Dawn probably wasn't Ice.

Alternatively, maybe the dream came from Jaime's mind. Where would Jaime have gotten this image stuck in his subconscious? Where would Jaime have seen a sword with silvery blue flame?

[LmL]

"And hed held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand... The outlaws longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. Its that white sword of yours I want, the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. Then you shall have it, ser, the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aeryss throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

(ASOS, Jaime)

Any chance Dawn lit up a little more than usual in battle? Is this where Jaime gets the idea from?