Why do Illyrio and Varys want a Targ to rule Westeros?

[Walda]

What's in it for them?

They both started out in the low-life of the plutocratic 'free' cities, and ascended to astonishing wealth and influence. They both seem to have done at least as well for themselves out of Westeros in the fifteen years of Baratheon rule, as under Targaryen rule - in fact probably better, as King Robert does not seem to have been as zealous about ensuring taxes were paid as Aerys was, and, not being excessively paranoid, he wouldn't have been as desperate for whispers, or as fond of burning the messenger as Aerys, either.

Neither of them seems to have family in Westeros, or a living lover to give them a personal connection with an interest in the state of the Realms. Westeros doesn't have slavery, as the free cities do, but neither of them show much concern for social justice - Illyrio has slaves, and, if Viserys III had sat on the iron throne, slavery trading would have been legal in Westeros.

And yet,, they have been tirelessly beavering away for the last fifteen eighteen years (at least), spiriting Targaryen babes to the safety of Essos, setting the Wolves against the Lions, quietly sabotaging effective Baratheon rule "for the Realm".

I could understand Varys objecting to Stannis, with his shadowbabies and sacrifices, but the Baratheons are, on the whole, a lot less magical than the Targaryens.

What would a Targaryen ruler offer but sorcery, fire, and inconvenient trade polices? What is the attraction for Illyrio and Varys? Where's the cheese?

[Cayrouse]

Because they haven't 'checked their #Targprivilige'

Maybe they're naive and think that a return of the Dragons will help lead to 'peace' like it did during the Days of Aegon and his successors where might made right and peace through superior firepower was ensured. The again these two gentlemen give a flying duck about the interests of common people.

[TerranV]

Its not that they want a Targ on the throne but that they want their Targ on the throne. Whatever their motivation is, I doubt any loyalty to the Targaryens have anything to do with it.

[Fencer]

I think maybe your assumption about their end goal is flawed. Is a Targ on the throne their final objective? Or another stepping stone along the way?

Personally, I think a Targaryen (Aegon or Dany) is just another tool for them to shatter what is left of the social/political structure of Westeros.

[Walda]

Personally, I think a Targaryen (Aegon or Dany) is just another tool for them to shatter what is left of the social/political structure of Westeros.

Please elaborate. What social/political structure do you think they want to replace it with? Or do they just want to wreck what is there? And why Westeros?

[Paxter Redwyne]

Well, if you are rich your life is quite boring, so illyrio and varys decided to have some fun and overthrow baratheon dynasty.

[GtrGbln]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[plectrum]

I've always just thought that they both like money and it's tough to run a business when the institutional anarchy is constantly touching off wars. They want a strong ruler to keep a lid on things.

[In A Coat of Gold]

To make a king is to have that king indebted to you.

[A bowl of brown]

Personally i subscribe to the blackfyre theory. In which aegon is a blackfyre descendant through serra. And illyrios son. I also think varys is a blackfyre through a female line.

So basically i dont think they want a targ on the throne i think theyre conducting another blackfyre rebellion just in a more subtle way

[shadows and dust]

Or.... Varys was essentially an untouchable where he was from, having been shorn his manhood and used as you would livestock.

In Westeros he was given his chance -under Targ dynasty- to rise above that station, and associates deeply Targ rule with opportunity, and what is right.

Baratheon rule meerly tolerated his continued existance; he was kept because he was useful. Under Targs he was risen.

And Mopatis is using Varys' Targ loyalty to move Aegon Blackfyre to the throne :-)

He's doing this because his wife asked him to on her deathbed. And rich men with blood oaths are scary.

[Fencer]

Please elaborate. What social/political structure do you think they want to replace it with? Or do they just want to wreck what is there? And why Westeros?

I don't have an elaborate or deeply worked out theory on this, just a basic outline and sense of what I think they are up to. I suspect that Varys and Illyrio are trying to weaken the power of the nobility by instigating conflicts so that they can eventually stage a popular revolution. Not because I believe they have altruistic motives; quite the opposite. I view them as more Mao or Stalin type figures, using the guise of a popular uprising to seize their own power and establish a system in which they profit.

To do this, they need to sweep away the old system. Play the nobility off against each other. Demonstrate the futility of the feudal system and the incompetence of their rule. Put the people into such dire straits (winter is coming) that in their desperation they will embrace revolution. And then build a “better” Westeros in which all men are equal, just some are more equal than others. After all, it is “for the children”.

[xXx_Petyr_Baelish_xXx]

To make a king is to have that king indebted to you.

[aryagonnakill#2]

They don't want a Targ on the throne. Ilyrio either descends from the female line of house Blackfyre or from Bittersteal, and Varys is really Viserys also from either the Blackfyre or Brightflame lines.

[Marten]

I'm not so sure Targaryen rule is their endgame. Their long-term plans make little sense to me, which leads me to believe there is more than meets the eye. For example, if Varys wanted the Targaryens to rule, why would he enable Aerys's mad tendencies? Perhaps he wanted Raegar to succeed him, but there is really no way for him to control the chain of events, which he obviously failed in case the tried. Futhermore, the handling of Viserys, Daenerys and the possbibly fake Aegon is strange. They are rich and powerful, they should be able to put Viserys and Daenerys somewhere safe without being implicated, biding the time for a return. Instead, the siblings are all alone after Ser Derry dies

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Varys and Littlefinger are Gods, and this is their game. They've conspired to bring back "magic," which is a reflection of their powers, and now they're fighting to control the world that they've set their respective demons upon (Dragons for Varys and Others for LF). They're not allowed to kill one another directly by the terms of their game, but they're allowed to weaken one another through proxy wars. :lol:

But more seriously, I do suspect that Varys may be working to bring back magic rather than eliminate it. I believe that he did see something in the blue flames, and that said something inspired rather than repelled him. But that itself is possibly crackpot.

[Lady Snauh]

I generally like to subscribe to the Aegon being Illiyrio's son theory and being a Blackfyre through Serra but Varys motivations have always truly eluded me.... I can never be sure what he really means.

Varys and Littlefinger are Gods, and this is their game. They've conspired to bring back "magic," which is a reflection of their powers, and now they're fighting to control the world that they've set their respective demons upon (Dragons for Varys and Others for LF). They're not allowed to kill one another directly by the terms of their game, but they're allowed to weaken one another through proxy wars. :lol:

But more seriously, I do suspect that Varys may be working to bring back magic rather than eliminate it. I believe that he did see something in the blue flames, and that said something inspired rather than repelled him. But that itself is possibly crackpot.

This is what I mean. I don't know if we will ever TRULY know what Varys motivations are until the end, if we ever do.

[Septon Oberyn]

I read a theory a while back that Varys and Illyrio have endgames much larger than who sits the throne. They want to bring about a revolution of sorts, and bring the world out of the feudal society and into a new age. They want basically a revolution of the middle class. They are using the Targaryens and everyone else to sow chaos until the existing social status quo is broken.

And if you look at their histories, it makes sense as to why they would want to do this. They both know what it is to live on the other side. They both started out poor, Varys absurdly so, and they, unlike anyone else in power, know what it is like to live at the whims of powerful lords. They want this dynamic to end, and are using their status, which they worked and schemed for, to bring about a new age of political power. Whether they will be successful is another matter.

[falcotron]

I read a theory a while back that Varys and Illyrio have endgames much larger than who sits the throne. They want to bring about a revolution of sorts, and bring the world out of the feudal society and into a new age. They want basically a revolution of the middle class. They are using the Targaryens and everyone else to sow chaos until the existing social status quo is broken.

And if you look at their histories, it makes sense as to why they would want to do this. They both know what it is to live on the other side. They both started out poor, Varys absurdly so, and they, unlike anyone else in power, know what it is like to live at the whims of powerful lords. They want this dynamic to end, and are using their status, which they worked and schemed for, to bring about a new age of political power. Whether they will be successful is another matter.

It's interesting that they live in Pentos, a country where the middle class didn't eliminate the royalty, but instead completely subverted them to an inferior role. The magisters (representatives of the merchants) elect the Prince, he has no real power, and, when things go badly, they use him as a scapegoat.

Have they since decided that even this isn't good enough, and they need an openly democratic (or plutocratic) rule instead? Or are they planning to use Aegon as a sacrificial scapegoat? Or is the Pentoshi system basically a red herring here?

[The Fresh PtwP]

Rereading Jaime in feast got me thinking, when he thinks of Rhaegar and Aerys, Varys shows up alot. Pointing out any traitors Aerys missed...but we know Rhaegar was about to get Aerys dethroned via Great Council how did Varys miss this? Maybe his loyalties were to Rhaegar not Aerys? That would explain why he saved Aegon but Viserys/Dany were treated with indifference.