Ser Arthur Dayne

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Ser Arthur Dayne Sword of the Morning. A member of the King's Guard. Rhaegar's best friend. Ashara's brother. He is an enigma. Both he and his sister are shrouded in mystery and tragedy. Speculation that either or both of them are dead or alive is a fairly frequent topic of discussion. I never really entertained the thought that Arthur was still alive. I've thought Ashara might be, but, of course, that is not proven either.

So, today, I was playing around with Ser Arthur's name and title. I do word scrambles for a lot of different things in the books. Arthur's yields more words, interesting and not than any other character so far.

So, as I was doing this earlier today, I came across new combinations that I hadn't before. Brianpowers got me started with this again. His enthusiasm is catching! Anyway it was while I was doing these word scrambles that a thought came to me. What if the real reason no one has been named Sword of the Morning is that there isn't a need for it? If Arthur is still alive, well then, we don't need a new SotM.

Where is my textual evidence? Well, I don't really have any. In GoT, Lord Eddard's men talk of their young lord and how he killed the great Arthur Dayne. This and other rumors about Ashara Dayne reach his young wife's ears and she questions him about Jon's mother and the speculation that it may be Ashara Dayne. Ned's response is so intense that it frightens Catelyn. The name is never mentioned at Winterfell again.

The dead seem to sing more songs than the living in these books. Both Arthur and Ashara played roles in the events leading up to Robert's Rebellion and in the cover ups that followed it. Its difficult to prove this as GRRM doesn't specifically say this is true.

The only thing I can point to of evidence of Arthur still being alive is the most obvious: No one has been named as his replacement. I know Edric is thought to be the next SotM, but, if so, why hasn't he been named as such? Is he too young? Westeros is filled with men who accomplished amazing things at a very young age. I don't think this is a great argument.

The only other thing I can offer as paltry evidence is this: "I am Darkstar and I am of the Night." Well, there is one thing about Darkstar that we can pretty much agree on, he hates Arthur Dayne, or purports to. He seems to be a cruel and embittered young man, the opposite of Arthur as it were. Is his anger due in part because Arthur being alive kept him from the title SotM? Would he being from a lesser house have a hope to be named such? I'm not sure.

Here are a few things I came up with in my scramble game. I don't use a computer to do this. I just keep writing the name and title and listing things I come up with. Tell me if you can add any. I know there are already a lot of them out there. If I happen to type one that you wrote already or saw elsewhere, I'm not stealing anyone else's thoughts, we are simply working with the same material and are bound to come up with the same words or phrases sooner or later. This list is not complete as it would take up too much space. Lol.

S E R A R T H U R D A Y N E S W O R D O F T H E M O R N I N G.

Danaerys, Aerys, Ned, Ser

Dragonstone

Aegon

Rhaenys

Rhaegar

Reed

Storm

Ramsay

Winter

Song of Winter

Earthsong (CotF)?

Heart

True Heart of Morning

True Heart of Day

Heart of Truth

Words of Truth

True Hero

Iron Throne

Heir to Storms End

Son of Aerys

Daughter of Aerys

Sister of Aegon

Mother of Dragons

Drogon

Drogo

Edit: How could I forget? The Twins!

Tywin?

I could go on, but, I won't. I'm trying to come up with one phrase that makes the most sense. I was just thinking though, as crackpot as it may be, King Arthur of lore pulled a mighty sword from a stone. Now, that may have been brought up by someone else at some time on this forum, but I've never seen it mentioned. I don't think its a coincidence and I would love to hear what anyone has to say about any of these things. I am fascinated by Ser Arthur and I hope I get a lot of different input from this forum. I would love to read everyone's theories, arguments, for or against. Anything that may bring some light to the subject.

[Trigger Warning]

Well they don't just give the sword to any Dayne anyway, they have to wait for a knight from House Dayne that they consider worthy of the sword and title.

So they don't have to name anyone.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Well they don't just give the sword to any Dayne anyway, they have to wait for a knight from House Dayne that they consider worthy of the sword and title.

So they don't have to name anyone.

Yeah, I know it doesn't go to just anyone. It isn't just a knight, it has to be a very special someone that the title is bestowed upon. I get that part. I'm just wondering if there is no need to name anyone if Arthur is alive?

[Lord Lannister]

Honestly I just think the whole Sword of the Morning bit, and the emphasis given to Daynes's connection to the Starks is just a huge Red Herring to draw the casual reader away from R+L=J. Ned killed Arthur Dayne, Ashara had something going on with either Ned or Brandon supposedly and Edric Dayne was Jon's milk brother. There's a pretty big connection with the two families there if nothing else. Barristan thinks Ashara would've been with him if not for Stark. The legendary sword bit and hidden birthright almost just seems a parallel hidden prince storyline to distract the reader away from the real hidden prince storyline.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Honestly I just think the whole Sword of the Morning bit, and the emphasis given to Daynes's connection to the Starks is just a huge Red Herring to draw the casual reader away from R+L=J. Ned killed Arthur Dayne, Ashara had something going on with either Ned or Brandon supposedly and Edric Dayne was Jon's milk brother. There's a pretty big connection with the two families there if nothing else. Barristan thinks Ashara would've been with him if not for Stark. The legendary sword bit and hidden birthright almost just seems a parallel hidden prince storyline to distract the reader away from the real hidden prince storyline.

Well, I can't say the red herring hasn't popped into my brain a zillion times, and for more than just Arthur Dayne. I wish I could put these thoughts to bed already, but the fact that the two of them keep coming up in the story just keeps pouring salt into an open wound. Arthur and Ashara are both said to have died. One in combat with Eddard the other by suicide brought on by the loss of her daughter or being spurned by her lover, or possibly both. No body was ever found.

The story gets so convoluted, it is difficult not to speculate that they aren't dead. If Ned was going to Starfall any way, why wouldn't he bring Arthur along with his fabled sword Dawn? That never made sense to me. He would send a dead wolf back to Winterfell but he would not bring a man he admired much back to his sister who he may very well have been in love with? It just doesn't work for me. While, Arthur being alive isn't necessarily the answer, there has to be more to the story than he died at the ToJ...the end.

Thank you for you response, its always good to see you Lord Lannister. I added Tywin's name to my list, just for you!

[Lord Lannister]

Well, I can't say the red herring hasn't popped into my brain a zillion times, and for more than just Arthur Dayne. I wish I could put these thoughts to bed already, but the fact that the two of them keep coming up in the story just keeps pouring salt into an open wound. Arthur and Ashara are both said to have died. One in combat with Eddard the other by suicide brought on by the loss of her daughter or being spurned by her lover, or possibly both. No body was ever found.

The story gets so convoluted, it is difficult not to speculate that they aren't dead. If Ned was going to Starfall any way, why wouldn't he bring Arthur along with his fabled sword Dawn? That never made sense to me. He would send a dead wolf back to Winterfell but he would not bring a man he admired much back to his sister who he may very well have been in love with? It just doesn't work for me. While, Arthur being alive isn't necessarily the answer, there has to be more to the story than he died at the ToJ...the end.

Thank you for you response, its always good to see you Lord Lannister. I added Tywin's name to my list, just for you!

Well Arthur Dayne is one of those characters like Rhaegar. Even though we actually never even see him, he always seems to be playing an indirect role. It says something about this man that two people as completely different as Eddard Stark and Jaime Lannister both hold him equally in high esteem and name him the best knight they ever saw.

Though now that you mention it, that's a very good point you make about his body, Dawn and Ned going to Starfall anyways as you said. Burial rituals in Westeros seem to vary widely, but returning someone's bones at the very least is usually considered appropriate for an important nobleman. So that's yet another loose plot string concerning that event. I swear Martin and a team of scientists got together and charted out just how ambiguous they could make the events surrounding the Tower of Joy. :P

And yes, I'm always glad to chime in on your topics. You've always been good for a thought provoking conversation Firespider! :) And thanks for the Tywin vote! While he's not even my favorite Lannister he's definitely one of those villains that just enhances the story in so many ways and makes his mark.

[Carnivora]

AD = Camaris.

He will be back.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

AD = Camaris.

He will be back.

Could you expand on that a little bit? Please? Thank you.

Edit: Or, please tell me if this is what you're talking about? http://memorysorrowthorn.wikia.com/wiki/Camaris

If it isn't, could you give me a link to explain AD=C?

Thank you.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Well Arthur Dayne is one of those characters like Rhaegar. Even though we actually never even see him, he always seems to be playing an indirect role. It says something about this man that two people as completely different as Eddard Stark and Jaime Lannister both hold him equally in high esteem and name him the best knight they ever saw.

Though now that you mention it, that's a very good point you make about his body, Dawn and Ned going to Starfall anyways as you said. Burial rituals in Westeros seem to vary widely, but returning someone's bones at the very least is usually considered appropriate for an important nobleman. So that's yet another loose plot string concerning that event. I swear Martin and a team of scientists got together and charted out just how ambiguous they could make the events surrounding the Tower of Joy. :P

And yes, I'm always glad to chime in on your topics. You've always been good for a thought provoking conversation Firespider! :) And thanks for the Tywin vote! While he's not even my favorite Lannister he's definitely one of those villains that just enhances the story in so many ways and makes his mark.

Yeah, it always nagged at me why Ned didn't return Arthur's body to Starfall. I agree with the team of scientists, although, I think I might preface it with "Mad" I still can't figure out how Ned and HR tore the ToJ down by themselves. Honestly, was it built of wet sand?

Tywin is an amazing character. He made the books extremely interesting and his portrayal on the show was brilliant! I do miss his character on the show and in the books. Tyrion is still one of my favorites. I do hope he gets to ride a dragon. Someone has to get some happiness in these books. I mean, the law of averages insists upon at least ONE character actually having a GOOD dream come true! Right? Am I asking to much? Is that crackpot? Probably. Happiness isn't a Westerosi word is it? No, I think the Others ate it.

[Carnivora]

Could you expand on that a little bit? Please? Thank you.

Edit: Or, please tell me if this is what you're talking about? http://memorysorrowthorn.wikia.com/wiki/Camaris

If it isn't, could you give me a link to explain AD=C?

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm referring to Camaris from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

There are some key parallels between AD and Camaris. Both are legendary warriors. Both wield a famous sword forged from the heart of a fallen star (AD's is obviously Dawn, Camaris' sword is called Thorn) and both were best friends with an important character (Arthur with Rhaegar, Camaris with Prester John). Now here's the interesting part: Camaris was thought dead and went missing for years before turning up in the story and playing a big role. The rumor was that he had drowned at sea and he went missing for 40 years before showing up again. In ASOIAF, Arthur Dayne is thought to be dead as well... for now.

The important thing to note is that GRRM has mentioned Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn as one of the biggest inspirations for ASOIAF. It makes too much sense.

So, is it guaranteed that Arthur Dayne is alive? No, but he is. In my opinion, at least.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Yeah, I'm referring to Camaris from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

There are some key parallels between AD and Camaris. Both are legendary warriors. Both wield a famous sword forged from the heart of a fallen star (AD's is obviously Dawn, Camaris' sword is called Thorn) and both were best friends with an important character (Arthur with Rhaegar, Camaris with Prester John). Now here's the interesting part: Camaris was thought dead and went missing for years before turning up in the story and playing a big role. The rumor was that he had drowned at sea and he went missing for 40 years before showing up again. In ASOIAF, Arthur Dayne is thought to be dead as well... for now.

The important thing to note is that GRRM has mentioned Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn as one of the biggest inspirations for ASOIAF. It makes too much sense.

So, is it guaranteed that Arthur Dayne is alive? No, but he is. In my opinion, at least.

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. Arthur Dayne is so fascinating to me. Now that you have added this story, I'm even more enthralled. Lol! I have heard that D&D are casting a character that is supposedly a legendary fighter. I'm so hoping it AD! Maybe he will make an appearance in the WoW. I know the possibility is that it would be in flashbacks from Bran, but, I always keep the door open. Unless its in the books and irrefutable,I like to keep my mind open to the possibility that we don't know everything we think we know about these books!

Thanks again, and I will really like poring over this new information.

[Carnivora]

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. Arthur Dayne is so fascinating to me. Now that you have added this story, I'm even more enthralled. Lol! I have heard that D&D are casting a character that is supposedly a legendary fighter. I'm so hoping it AD! Maybe he will make an appearance in the WoW. I know the possibility is that it would be in flashbacks from Bran, but, I always keep the door open. Unless its in the books and irrefutable,I like to keep my mind open to the possibility that we don't know everything we think we know about these books!

Thanks again, and I will really like poring over this new information.

You're very welcome! Ser Arthur is probably my favorite character in the series, which seems a bit silly since we haven't even met him. But the way Ned and Jaime remember him really highlights the type of legend he was. So I definitely agree, he's fascinating. My fingers are crossed for him still being alive out there somewhere but I know most people aren't in the same boat as me.

Re: legendary fighter, I'm pretty convinced it's AD. Can't wait.

[TheSmallOther]

You're very welcome! Ser Arthur is probably my favorite character in the series, which seems a bit silly since we haven't even met him. But the way Ned and Jaime remember him really highlights the type of legend he was. So I definitely agree, he's fascinating. My fingers are crossed for him still being alive out there somewhere but I know most people aren't in the same boat as me.

Re: legendary fighter, I'm pretty convinced it's AD. Can't wait.

Just wanted to remind you there are basically no pure good or pure evil characters in GRRM's world. Since AD is an instance of pure awesomeness, I bet we'll find out one day he must be in some deep sh..., trouble :)

[Carnivora]

Just wanted to remind you there are basically no pure good or pure evil characters in GRRM's world. Since AD is an instance of pure awesomeness, I bet we'll find out one day he must be in some deep sh..., trouble :)

Yeah we'll see. I expect there's more to him than just being a paragon of knighthood.

[Lord Lannister]

Yeah, it always nagged at me why Ned didn't return Arthur's body to Starfall. I agree with the team of scientists, although, I think I might preface it with "Mad" I still can't figure out how Ned and HR tore the ToJ down by themselves. Honestly, was it built of wet sand?

Tywin is an amazing character. He made the books extremely interesting and his portrayal on the show was brilliant! I do miss his character on the show and in the books. Tyrion is still one of my favorites. I do hope he gets to ride a dragon. Someone has to get some happiness in these books. I mean, the law of averages insists upon at least ONE character actually having a GOOD dream come true! Right? Am I asking to much? Is that crackpot? Probably. Happiness isn't a Westerosi word is it? No, I think the Others ate it.

Well this is a show only quote, but it's appropriate: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." :P Tyrion, Jorah, Jaime... all my favorite characters seem pretty much destined for a tragic ending! Then again I always had the tendency to root for the underdog all things being equal and Tyrion is the ultimate underdog. But before I derail your topic anymore...

I always pictured the Tower of Joy as being a simple two story structure. A ground floor and an upper loft area that Lyanna was probably in with a crude stairway. If there's only enough stone for the eight cairns, it couldn't have been that big and likely it was an improvised structure, possible just hastily built for the benefit of Lyanna. So honestly, if Ned and HR had a long enough lever available they could just tip the thing over and collect the stones that way. As the fight was implied to take place outside of the Tower, it certainly didn't have any defensive value. So that wouldn't strike me as impossible.

That meeting at Starfall had to be so awkward. "Yeah Ashara, sorry I killed your brother. Here's his sword. That body in the cart behind me? No that's not him, that's my sister Lyanna. You didn't think I could carry them both AND this huge sword did you?" Ashara stares blankly and jumps off the cliff. Mystery solved? :P

[anonnyscouse]

Yeah, I'm referring to Camaris from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

There are some key parallels between AD and Camaris. Both are legendary warriors. Both wield a famous sword forged from the heart of a fallen star (AD's is obviously Dawn, Camaris' sword is called Thorn) and both were best friends with an important character (Arthur with Rhaegar, Camaris with Prester John). Now here's the interesting part: Camaris was thought dead and went missing for years before turning up in the story and playing a big role. The rumor was that he had drowned at sea and he went missing for 40 years before showing up again. In ASOIAF, Arthur Dayne is thought to be dead as well... for now.

The important thing to note is that GRRM has mentioned Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn as one of the biggest inspirations for ASOIAF. It makes too much sense.

So, is it guaranteed that Arthur Dayne is alive? No, but he is. In my opinion, at least.

That suggests both Daynes have the same inspiration.

[TheSmallOther]

That meeting at Starfall had to be so awkward. "Yeah Ashara, sorry I killed your brother. Here's his sword. That body in the cart behind me? No that's not him, that's my sister Lyanna. You didn't think I could carry them both AND this huge sword did you?" Ashara stares blankly and jumps off the cliff. Mystery solved? :P

That's what we get from the current text and it's too awkward. I'm pretty sure there are more to it. Why didn't Ned bring Arthur's body to Starfall? Why did he bring Dawn? We hear in the forums he did it because he respected Arthur a lot. It seems there was a lot of respect for Arthur from Ned's side, but such respect should encourage him to bring a body of a dead son, brother to Starfall. Yet he leaves everyone including his fellow northmen at the tower, but brings Lyanna to Winterfell and even puts a statue in the crypts, between Stark men.

Despite all that awkwardness, beside officially being responsible for the deaths of two members of House Dayne, Ned is still very much respected between Daynes. They even name a boy in his name: "good memories, Arthur, Ashara, let them rest in peace. But Ned brought us the sword. All hail Ned!".

[Carnivora]

That suggests both Daynes have the same inspiration.

Indeed, I thought it was interesting how Ashara supposedly met her end that way. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

Thanks for that. One thing, your scope is too wide, you're using over half of the alphabet, if you narrow things down it may be easier to discern special, meaningful words or phrases.

Love the post, btw.

we must take into consideration what we actually know from the text. We know Ser Arthur is the most famous knight in the world, a legendary fighter, chivalrous, even allows Smiling Knightto get a new sword while fighting him. There are oh sooo many possibilities, we never actually get proof from the text at all that Dayne is dead. We know that Ned still has great respect for Arthur and Howland, not as likely if Dayne broke KG vows of celibacy, or if Reed stabbed him in the back.

",and he would have killed me, but for Howland Reed."-Ned Stark

This coupled with the fact that we never get a description of what hair and eye color of the most famous Dayne of his time,first Sword of the Morning in a hundred years, makes me think he could be hiding out. (Dark Brown to Black hair and Grey eyes is what I think.) But I will revisit this later.

Here's a few possibilities, Arthur is about to kill Ned when Reed sacrifices himself, or blocks the blow. We get one piece of evidence with lyanna yelling "Eddard" from the tower, that could have happened as he was fighting and I can see Arthur telling him to go to his sister, he will wait, like he did with SK.

Then, Ned goes up ,promises Lya something, and passes out. " they found him" and then talk about what can be done to ptotect Babies Jon and Dany and Aegon or Meera. So Howland and Lyanna as Jyana raising Meera who would be a triplet,(Child of Three) Jon, dark hair, dark eyes, dark coloring, swarthy first men. Dany or Aegon, silver blonde hair, purple eyes, pale skin, Meera, the middle child, Brown hair and Green eyes, warrior, like Lyanna, the one thing that makes me like this is the physical descriptions for all three, Short of Stature, Slim.

no warg dreams for meera tho, so unlikely. Aegon could possibly work with reason and people listed below.

Ned kills Arthur because of a distraction by Reed, not as honorable (two on one)but possible.

Ned, Dayne fighting ,Lyanna calls down, Dayne says go to her she needs you, promise me Ned, Ned passes out, Reed and Dayne find him, with Jon and Aegon, what do we do?

Dayne says I will take the light and you the dark, starts a new life as Haldon Halfmaester, not that hard to do with Oldtown, Citadel connections.

The Shy maid crew, Ysilla and Yandry,(not sure i got those right) but they are a dornish couple, who used to travel the Greenblood, in this version Lyanna or Ashara is Septa Lemore,(don't think Lyannas age adds up right for Lemore though even though she seems more likely) but I like the Halfmaester for some reason and his cool grey eyes. Duck says to him early on, "Whose the knight here anyway." Always kinda had a feeling that Duck is a Northman, don't know why just a feeling.

Arthur could be hanging out at Winterfell as...Master Luwin, not likely, because Luwin is supposed to have delivered all Cats children, but he did show up in 283 AC.

With the reaction by Lyanna to Roberts indiscretions, its hard to believe she is willing to be another woman, even to a prince.

Ashara Dayne, beautiful woman by all accounts, becomes involved with Rhaegar, as Elia's handmaiden she was right there in KL, with royal family.

Tourney at Harrenhal, Lya saves Reed, during dinner, Rhaegar sings a sad song, tears from the wolf maid. Lya is KoLT, skilled horse rider,(most of what jousting is). Now Rhaegar finds Lya as KoLT, and they speak, she maybe starts to fall for Howland, and seeks to end her betrothal, who better to help than the crown Prince. Maybe her and Rhaegar fell in love at first sight?

Maybe she asks for help because Brandon Stark is raping her,(explains his reaction when she got the crown and in KL.) Maybe her and Benjen been messing around,(joined NW for something, guilt, forced by his brother.)

Maybe she ran into Rhaegar and Arthur banging each other, before you laugh, think Renly and Loras, one of the most famous swordsman of his day, very close relationship with a royal who doesn't enjoy song of swords, likes being well dressed(renly) and singing songs,(Rhaegar.) Far fetched.

I think it most likely that Rhaegar and Ashara = Dany. And you can still have R+L=J. With a side of Aegon maybe thrown in there, reason I like this theory, Dany Dreams about Rhaegar, and always seems to be representing him in some way, she dreams of Dayne ancestors, Selmy thinks about Asharas eyes while looking, at her. Shy Maid crew, the couple that own the boat are Dornish from the Greenblood, we think a large cover up has taken place, and it started in Dorne. if Arthur is Haldon, and Lyanna/Ashara is Lemore, then it makes sense for Duck to be a northerner.

We never get a physical description of Dayne either. This is Huge.

If he was a Large man or if he had distinctive features, like Purple eyes and silver hair we would have heard about. I think one of the two, Ashara or Arthur are alive still.

Best guess for Arthur is Haldon Halfmaester, this would mean Aegon isn't who he thinks, but is really close.

The Once and Future King, by TH White, is one of the most famous books about King Arthur, who after he died is supposed to come back to lead a golden age. Ahhh enough for now, I will spew more insanity at you later.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

One other reason I like the Jon, Dany and Aegon, Child of three, is because Tyrion talks, advises, or will apparently all three of them, Jon while going to the Wall, parted as friends. Aegon on Shy Maid, and Dany in Mereen.