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Rant and Rave Without Repercussion: The North Misremembers (Book Spoilers)


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(to quote Ran):

"The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if he normal rules of the forum do not apply. Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked."

Discussing Winterfell and the Wall from Season 5

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So much to talk about with this.


Completely butchering Stannis' character.


Jon never commmunicating the issue of the ~white walkers with the rest of the Wall. (or anybody else at Hardhome doing so). Thorne letting him and the Wildlings in just to stab Jon five minutes later.


Freaking Olly.


Poor Sansa.


Reek slowly becoming Theon again completely ignored. It just magically happens.


Ramsey and his 20 good men.


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Pretty much all of the northern storyline was bad sansa taking jeynes place in a weird version of the wf storyline without any northern lords freys tension or roose even stannis' character being butchered ramsay having a gf and more screen time than theon who should have been the star of WF (Alfie would've nailed it) and fansa

FUCKING OLLY that is all

Allister Thorne one of the few improved characters is no longer one of the few improved characters

Ghost being sams pet and sam asking Jon if he can run away with his gf because hes not up to this apocalypse scenario thing

Fucking OLLY

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So, a big issue I have with Theon's storyline is that they have his start back on the path to being Theon at the wedding when he identifies himself as 'her father's ward' as opposed to heir to the Iron Islands, etc. which is important, but they don't have Sansa pick up on it. It seems to me it would be the perfect thing for her to say, to echo he was her father's ward, when she's trying to break him out of his Reekness. Instead, she goes the opposite way with calling him heir to the Iron Islands, etc.


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Woohoo! It's here. I'm just gonna paste my post explaining why LF's plan is complete rubbish.



Littlefinger would not risk a piece, no matter the value, if he doesn't have to.



LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way, but if for some reason he confesses he will throw LF under the bus with him. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.



Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey.



1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries



Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death.



2) Stannis wins, LF lies



Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point.



3) Boltons win, Sansa marries



LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North.



4) Bolton wins, LF lies



LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept.



Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa.



End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.


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Okay. Jon/The Wall.

Why did the wildlings have to come through the gate at Castle Black? I know it was a tense moment that they wanted to use to show growing tension but it makes. No. Sense. At. All. Why use illogical moments when there is soooo much tension to be built around the already existing plot?

Why did Jon not tell everyone about the WW? In this bizarro world, even Edd had spoken up against Jon, so surely his word would count for something if Thorne and Co. disbelieved their LC.

They did some minor build up to the Pink Letter even. Why not at least let Jon KNOW that his sister was close?

And how did Mel get a horse?! How did she get to the Wall 2.5 seconds after Davos!?!

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So much to talk about with this.

Completely butchering Stannis' character.

Jon never commmunicating the issue of the ~white walkers with the rest of the Wall. (or anybody else at Hardhome doing so). Thorne letting him and the Wildlings in just to stab Jon five minutes later.

Freaking Olly.

Poor Sansa.

Reek slowly becoming Theon again completely ignored. It just magically happens.

Ramsey and his 20 good men.

It's because the best and quickest therapy in the world is to simply yell at someone and tell them you'd love to do terrible things to them. Brings about psychological healing in no time. It is known.

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And how did Mel get a horse?!

Soldier to Stannis : the sellswords deserted with all the horses. Next scene : Mel rides out of the camp.

This one will be hard to top. Even if the soldier misspoke and there were some horses left, it would be completely stupid not to guard them !

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It's because the best and quickest therapy in the world is to simply yell at someone and tell them you'd love to do terrible things to them. Brings about psychological healing in no time. It is known.

It is known. *nods*

I cannot, will not, must not ever get over Ramsay Snow being the star of the Northern part of the story. He got "touching" moments with his dad, he has such military prowess, he got a LOVE INTEREST. A LOVE TRIANGLE, even, though the most awful one ever.

Poor Theon. Alfie's so great. I would have loved to see the heart tree scene. Or, really, anything more of his character's development back to Theon. Why did he we see SO MUCH TORTURE but so little of the healing, I guess, is the easiest way to phrase it?

I was also genuinely surprised they didn't have Theon say the "you have to know your name" line when he threw Myranda off the bridge/battlement/whatever.

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Okay. Jon/The Wall.

Why did the wildlings have to come through the gate at Castle Black? I know it was a tense moment that they wanted to use to show growing tension but it makes. No. Sense. At. All. Why use illogical moments when there is soooo much tension to be built around the already existing plot?

Why did Jon not tell everyone about the WW? In this bizarro world, even Edd had spoken up against Jon, so surely his word would count for something if Thorne and Co. disbelieved their LC.

They did some minor build up to the Pink Letter even. Why not at least let Jon KNOW that his sister was close?

And how did Mel get a horse?! How did she get to the Wall 2.5 seconds after Davos!?!

Yes, this was weird.

They could have at least shown that people were aware of what happened at Hardhome but Thorne and his cronies were twisting the story, making it look like Jon was lying to justify letting the Wildlings past. Instead no one seemed aware of what happened, even Sam didn't seem that fazed by it.

Also, what is the point in even having Ghost in the show at this point. He is not Jon's pet. Why did they have him save Sam and Gilly but not show up for Jon?!

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Stannis.... I can't even. The hoops jumped through to fuck him over in the course of two episodes boggles the imagination and makes me doubt in the ability of most of the viewing public to critically think their way out of a paper bag. Being a big fan of speculative fiction most of my life, I've seen some 'plot twists' that were hard to swallow, but this one takes the cake as their was source material to draw on. I tend want to avoid believing that writers have agendas beyond putting out good work, but in this case the agenda seems to be as clear as the weather after Shireen's sacrifice.



I hope their Lannister/Bolton fanfic ruins their careers.


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It is known. *nods*

I cannot, will not, must not ever get over Ramsay Snow being the star of the Northern part of the story. He got "touching" moments with his dad, he has such military prowess, he got a LOVE INTEREST. A LOVE TRIANGLE, even, though the most awful one ever.

Poor Theon. Alfie's so great. I would have loved to see the heart tree scene. Or, really, anything more of his character's development back to Theon. Why did he we see SO MUCH TORTURE but so little of the healing, I guess, is the easiest way to phrase it?

I was also genuinely surprised they didn't have Theon say the "you have to know your name" line when he threw Myranda off the bridge/battlement/whatever.

With all the time they wasted on crap this season I can't believe we didn't even get a lousy D&D version of Theon in the godswood. Alfie would've killed that scene even with a lousy script.

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Stannis.... I can't even. The hoops jumped through to fuck him over in the course of two episodes boggles the imagination and makes me doubt in the ability of most of the viewing public to critically think their way out of a paper bag. Being a big fan of speculative fiction most of my life, I've seen some 'plot twists' that were hard to swallow, but this one takes the cake as their was source material to draw on. I tend want to avoid believing that writers have agendas beyond putting out good work, but in this case the agenda seems to be as clear as the weather after Shireen's sacrifice.

I hope their Lannister/Bolton fanfic ruins their careers.

Well, to be perfectly fair and just, they've fucked up Stannis from his first appearance back on s 2. Eps 9 & 10 (or was it 8 & 10?) was the same thing, only turned up all the way to 17.

I still remember how excited I was when I first learned that Dillane had been cast, and I remember just as well how angry I was when I saw what they did to the character.

They turned a very complex and interesting character into a one dimensional ambitious man who was always checking out and grabbing Mel's bum. One of the most un-Stannis-like thing they could have done.

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Well, to be perfectly fair and just, they've fucked up Stannis from his first appearance back on s 2. Eps 9 & 10 (or was it 8 & 10?) was the same thing, only turned up all the way to 17.

I still remember how excited I was when I first learned that Dillane had been cast, and I remember just as well how angry I was when I saw what they did to the character.

They turned a very complex and interesting character into a one dimensional ambitious man who was always checking out and grabbing Mel's bum. One of the most un-Stannis-like thing they could have done.

I wasn't a fan of the way he was handled, and was often perplexed that they failed to use some of his best dialogue for the books but I was not prepared for the level they took it to this season.

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