Aegon Targaryen's purpose

[Shierak_qiya]

Hello everyone.
I’ve been following these forums for a couple of years now but this is my first thread, with the excitement for The Winds of Winter growing with each passing day, I feel the urge to share my opinions with you.
I’ve been a fan since before the TV series (and my parents have been following the series since its very beginning, in 1996, not really something to boast about). However, it’s been a while since the last time I read the books so forgive me if some of my comments aren’t accurate.

I’d like to share with you my thoughts concerning what I consider the one flaw in George Martin’s brilliant series: the inclusion of Aegon Targaryen.
Although some disapprove of it, I am very enthusiastic about Martin’s notion of magic as it plays a background role in the story and those who are involved with it always appear to face some backlash (see resurrections, the dragons, warging).

But when I read about Aegon Targaryen possibly being still alive, I was for the first time disappointed and couldn’t help but perceive it as poor writing.
It seems to me that Martin did not even hint at it throughout the books, and he hardly tries to endear this new claimant to us, in fact, I have yet to come across people who cheer for him or comments either in favour or against him, which is quite unusual considering his ability to easily arouse either positive or negative feelings about his characters.
Aegon Targaryen, provided he is the real one, is educated and well-mannered and is flanked by experienced advisors and a powerful army.
I think it’s safe to say he is the most unoriginal character in the series.
I can’t help but view him as just a sheer plot device.
Needless to say that all of his characters have a purpose and are likely to disappear once they’ve fulfilled it, but with him it just doesn’t work, it looks like a loophole to me.
He pops in out of nowhere, he lacks depth and distinguishing features, and sets about his business straight off, whereas other characters have been through developments and difficulties.

To get to the point, it is my belief that Martin means for him to cover Daenerys Targaryen’s arc in Westeros.
If this is the case, Dany will never go to Westeros and she will run her course in the east.
Martin has been building up her invasion, she was supposed to finish her arc in Essos and head to the Seven Kingdom, but I think he got stuck in his own mereenese knot, and having so much material to cover with only two remanining books, he decided to split Daenerys’ story in half.
In the best-case scenario, even if she finishes her business with the Dothraki, returns to Mereen, faces the aftermaths of the fight and decides to side with Victarion and sets sail to Westeros in a span of a few tWoW chapters, she won’t reach her destination before the end of the book.
Even so, I am utterly certain that she will have to deal with Illyrio Mopatis before she leaves.
In his interactions with the cheesemonger, Tyrion repeatedly states that his intention to help her for the sake of it reeks of deceit and conspiracy, so no doubt she will encounter him again, and that is likely to happen before her voyage, supposed she makes it out alive.
Perhaps Martin got things out of hands and realized he couldn’t possibly finish the story in seven books, so he came up with Aegon Targaryen, whom will advance Daenerys Targaryen’s cause while she stays in the east.
Considering how he has shifted the stories of so many characters from Westeros to Essos, maybe it him that he didn’t need to take Daenerys home, he brought the characters involved with her plot to her.
I don’t know why but I can’t see this taking a different twist, even if Daenerys does join Aegon later on as so many have suggested, I really can’t see their interactions pulled off properly. I just have a feeling it’s not meant to be.
So in short, my guess is that Martin couldn’t have Daenerys invading Westeros before A Dream of Spring and consequently put it forward, in a way, by introducing a new character that we all believed dead and who is going to do all the things Daenerys was supposed to do once she got to Westeros.
And whether or not he is real fades into insignificance.
If Dany had invaded Westeros herself, some of her opposers would have objected to her claim because she is the Mad King's daughter.
Considering Aegon is invading instead of her, he will be opposed because he is not a real Targaryen.
So his ambiguity is not that relevant. Martin slipped it in to establish the same dynamics that would have existed if this had been Daenerys' invasion.

What do you think of it?

If this turned out to be true, I would be hugely disappointed.
Not because Daenerys is by far my favourite character (as a fan, I doubt she’ll sit the Iron Throne though) but because I am so desperately hoping for her to at least reach the Seven Kingdom and start her invasion.
What I am so eagerly looking forward to is the reactions of those characters who haven’t acknowledged the threat she represents to their claim when she finally lands on Westeros, such as Stannis and Cersei.
I find it so interesting that Cersei has -never ever- wasted a second considering her coming in the books, even when reports from the east arrive at King’s Landing, she never even makes a comment about them. The one time she is faced with the existence of dragons by Qyburn she dismisses him abruptly. “In Mereen there are harpies, not dragons”, and then she marvels at the fact that she remembered that notion. So droll.
And Stannis... I really don’t know what he is going to do when he learns about her.
So this is my theory and the reason why I hope I am wrong.

P.s. Not a native, sorry if my english is not perfect.

[WolfgangII]

It's an interesting theory, but I have read in these forums before a sucint analysis of why Aegon's pop up should be considered as an element in the middle of the story rather than late. If we go with Martin original plan redacted in The letter, the story will cover three books (the war between the Starks and the Lannisters, Daenarys-Dothraki invasion and the battle against the Others... Poor, Martin, he was a summer child back then). So, giving that we have just "finished" with the War of the Five Kings, Aegon's show up is really in the middle of the saga.

I believe Martin could have changed his mind and come up with Aegon being alive as a way to accelarate Dany's arc (in this case Targaryen heir in Westeros arc). But I don't see why he has to do that. I know he has stated he plans to finish the saga in seven books, but her publishe already is contemplating and eight and if the books still sell, I don't see why he can extend the "original trilogy" on nine or even ten books. So, I think Dany have a lot of time to solve her Meereenese knot and reach Westeros.

Now, this may sound odd to many on these forums, but I like Dany's arc in Essos. First of all, I found Essosi culture really interesting, even more interesting than Westorosi and their stone tents. I like reading about the politics and society on the different cities. I also think necessary that Dany spent so much time in Essos. First of all, is her home, she grew there, and second, althought the war against the Others is really, really important, the struggle against the slave trade is equally important. We are talking about transform a millenial way of llfe. I will be really disapoint (of Dany and Martin) if the Silver Queen leaves Essos without setting in motion a different society than she found. That's her arc. The same as Jon Snow is chainging (or was changing) the society at The Wall border, Dany is changing the status quo of more than half the population of know Planetos.

And I also like the Aegon's invasion because it represent what Varys thaught Tyrion: "power resides where men decide". I don't care if he is the real son of Rhagear, or Illyrio, or Wun Wun: how Westeros react towards his claim is the important stuff. And if to that, we take into account the social change the Faith is promoving, we have a whole new discussion about power and goverment.

[Septon Oberyn]

I think that your analysis of Aegon being uninteresting is flawed. I think he is interesting because he provides a counter to Dany. He is educated, well-mannered, and brought up to believe that ruling is a duty, not a right. Dany is the opposite in many ways. While she is educated, it isn't much. I wouldn't necessarily describe her as well-mannered (more arrogant). And she was raised to believe that ruling was her right, and that she was entitled to the throne. This is why Aegon is interesting. He is everything that Dany is not, and Dany has everything he doesn't, namely power and dragons.

I also agree with Wolfgangll, that we are in the middle of the story. While the second half is going to be shorter and faster than the first half as the action picks up, we are still not late in the game, so his introduction isn't all that late.

[Visenya Stark]

GRRM decided to include (f)Aegon since the 90s. In A Clash of Kings, we're told about the mummer's dragon.

[Kyrion]

Not because Daenerys is by far my favourite character (as a fan, I doubt she’ll sit the Iron Throne though)

Dany fans tend to HATE Aegons introduction, so youre not unique. Many Dany fans feel like George "cheated" them, basically introducing a new character that seems to not only have a better claim, but also starts his invasion before her, probably getting to be the hero from Cersei and the Lannisters championing the Faith, and will face Dany who will be seen as an invader trying to Steal Aegons throne.

I love how George did that, its so GOT for Dany to be seen in such a fashion.

[The Fresh PtwP]

OP is new so i'll be gentle but it grinds my gears almost as much as lemongate when I hear Aegon showing up is "bad writing". With the ambiguity of his death literally mentioned every time (I've checked) it would've been a bigger surprise to me if Aegon didn't pop back up.

Mini-rant over.

Btw OP have no fear on Aegon taking Danys shine...he doesn't have the dragons. In fact you should be celebrating, most think Aegon is the catalyst that will finally convince Dany to get her butt over to Westeros.

[falcotron]

First, because I can't resist:

We've got a letter from Aegon!

"My dear family. Guess what! Today I found out what my special purpose is for. Gosh, what a great time I had. I wish the whole family could have been here with me. Maybe some other time, as I intend to do this a lot. Every chance I get. I think next week I'll be able to send some more money, as I may have extra work. My friend Jon promised me a blowjob. Your lovin' adopted son, Aegon."

But getting serious, I agree with Septon Oberyn: his purpose so far is to provide a contrast to Dany.

And that hints toward his long-term purpose. Whether it's to literally contest with her in a Dance of Dragons, or to inspire her to see a different way to look at the rights and duties that come with her inheritance, or something different, whatever it is seems likely to flow out of that contrast.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Blackfyre as the antagonist in the Second Dance of the Dragons has been planned since the beginning...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126482-the-blackfyre/

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

OP, great to meet another Daenerys fan! :cheers: A great spot to find #TeamKhaleesi on these boards is The Parallels Journey of Daenerys Targaryen thread on the re-read boards.

I don't dislike Aegon, but I think GRRM's got too many moving parts to wrap the series up in 2 books to anyone's satisfaction, especially given the bits of TWoW that have been released. Still feels very AFFC/ADwD-like, which is fine, but feels like middle of the series stuff rather than end-series, downward slope storytelling. I think it'll take 3, perhaps even 4, to do each of the major storylines justice. That's my only worry about Aegon.

(Of course, I'm one of those annoying Dany fans who is here for Queen Daenerys ruling with her two husband-nephews, just like Aegon had Rhaenys and Visenya. But I'll refrain. :cool4: )

[WhitewolfStark]

And what purpose did Perkin Warbeck, Lambert Simnel, Bonnie Prince Charlie, Owain Glyndwr, or Giannino Baglioni all serve?

In all seriousness though, in Martin's original outline we've only started book two of his trilogy, book two is the time to shift the ground so that everything you think you know is true is turned on its head, in a trilogy.

[falcotron]

In all seriousness though, in Martin's original outline we've only started book two of his trilogy, book two is the time to shift the ground so that everything you think you know is true is turned on its head, in a trilogy.

Or you can stretch out the journey from Magrathea to the Golgafrinchan B Ark with a half-dozen side plots that take up most of the book, and then use all of the third book to digress from the main plot entirely and revisit an old idea you had for Doctor Who that nobody else liked, and if you do it well enough, people will still love it. :)

More seriously, assuming Martin is actually planning things to some extent and not sitting in a bathtub for a few years and then writing the whole book in one panicked night like DNA, I'd assume stretching the story from 3 books to 7 while at the same time compressing the timeline from 7 years to 3 has meant some pretty dramatic changes to the sequence of events from his original outline.

[Sanset]

He pops in out of nowhere,

I think you have to make a difference between "He pops in out of nowhere" and "I didn't see it coming". Fans has been asking about baby Aegon since book one. And it was very (absolutely) suspicious that GRRM said Rhaenys is dead, but Aegon, well... never a straight answer... :rolleyes:

Something similar is Ashara Dayne. Her body was never found raises suspicious about her being alive. The same for Syrio Forel, if we see him again, it won't be out of the blue.

You can see the difference between Rhaenys' and Aegon's fates:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/

6.1.2. Is Rhaenys dead?

Yes

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Rhaenys_dead

6.1.1. Is Aegon dead?

Long read...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Aegon_dead

So, if Rhaenys comes back, that would be "out of nowhere", but not Aegon.

[Sanset]

Sorry... double post.

[chrisdaw]

Aegon is an extension of Varys, his creation, his will, Varys is established in AGOT as a mysterious character with secret plans.

Aegon serves Dany's character arc, that is his primary purpose. Aegon's existence forces Dany to question her path, her legitimacy, her motivation for taking the IT. It forces the question of what is truly important to Dany, what is best for Westeros (as Aegon will be embraced) or that she rules? Aegon will force Dany to confront her lingering fear, that she may be another mad Targ. When Aegon is done and the whole believes Dany killed her nephew for his throne, she will reassure herself that she really did it because he was a fake and that legitimacy matters. Then, will come Jon, legitimate and with a better claim.

Aegon also serves Tyrion's arc. Aegon and Dany provide the dance, leaving Tyrion the option to throw his heart behind one or the other, or, of playing the third Tywin option, sitting quietly in the middle until the victor is clear and buying his way in with them with blood. Just how Tywin is Tyrion?

[StarkofWinterfell]

I think that your analysis of Aegon being uninteresting is flawed. I think he is interesting because he provides a counter to Dany. He is educated, well-mannered, and brought up to believe that ruling is a duty, not a right. Dany is the opposite in many ways. While she is educated, it isn't much. I wouldn't necessarily describe her as well-mannered (more arrogant). And she was raised to believe that ruling was her right, and that she was entitled to the throne. This is why Aegon is interesting. He is everything that Dany is not, and Dany has everything he doesn't, namely power and dragons.

I also agree with Wolfgangll, that we are in the middle of the story. While the second half is going to be shorter and faster than the first half as the action picks up, we are still not late in the game, so his introduction isn't all that late.

I like this comparison but I can provide a (small) counterpoint to Aegon believing that ruling is a duty. When he and Tyrion are playing the equivalent of chess and the pieces get knocked over and scattered, he becomes enraged and orders Tyrion to pick them up. He may have that Targaryen fire, or a small temperament, but he needs to fix that to be a true ruler.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I strongly believe Aegon is the Mummer's dragon, or both a false dragon (a mummers' dragon) and Varys' dragon (the mummer's dragon) from the house of the undying being cheered by the crowds and the mummer's dragon mentioned by Qaithe. I also believe that he is the false dragon that Moqorro mentions in his vision. I think Aegon is the latest Blackfyre Pretender, the son of Illyrio Mopatis and (Vis)Serra Blackfyre and the last scion of that line, I think the sword Blackfyre will be presented to him (I think it was among the gifts Illyrio sent with Duck and Tyrion).

I also think that even though Varys and Illyrio and Griff think he is the perfect candidate to be a king I have my doubts. Daenerys was not raised to be a ruler but she learned on the run and lived her life as a refugee seeing the way the world really works. She has proven to be an astute judge of character and has shown the ability to see things as they are, plus she has dragons. She is tough and has real life experience while Aegon has been hidden on a boat. She was baptized by fire (literally and metaphorically) as a leader and a politician. She is naturally gifted and can inspire loyalty. She is not anyone's puppet (unlike Aegon) but instead rules herself. She has experienced hardship and emerged stronger while Aegon has lived a sheltered life hiding away, never in any danger and never having to test himself. Dany has shown the ability to lead and inspire people and to be hard when necessary or show mercy. She has finally embraced her Targaryen destiny and history at the end of Dance after trying to suppress it in Dance. As she tried to suppress her true self that she became lost but she has now embraced her path. Aegon is a sheltered boy who has never experienced any hardship and never been tested, and Winter is coming.

Aegon has blundered by the way. He should not have gone to Westeros without Daenerys. He has no proof of his identity and even if he is initially hailed as a hero for casting out the Lannisters he has set himself up as an invader leading the Golden Company who have menaced Westeros for a century. If Dany opposes him he has no proof of his identity and no dragons to defend himself.

The original plan of Varys and Illyrio was likely to have Viserys and the Dothraki land in Westeros (likely in a place with high Baratheon support) kill a few lords to provide seats as rewards for Golden Company Captains and defeat Robert who Ned thinks would ride out to face the Dothraki, and threaten the realm as barbarian invaders from the East led by the son of Mad King Aerys who is as viscous as his father. "Aegon" would then arrive with the Golden Company as heroes to rally the lords of the realm and defeat the Dothraki and Mad Viserys. No one would question Aegon if he saved the realm from the son of Aerys. People would see him as Rhaegar's son come to save the realm from a new Aerys.

Things changed with the birth of the dragons. Varys (who distrusts magic) and Illyrio (who is just a up-jumped merchant) never expected the eggs to hatch. The hatching of the eggs and the emergence of Dany as a talented, powerful, and popular ruler who is widely believed to be a true "Dragon" and a worthy heir to Aegon the Conqueror led Varys and Illyrio to change their plan (along with the death of Robert and the start of the War of the Five Kings). The Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, and Greyjoys had created chaos in the realm and Dany proved more competent than her brother and the threat of the Dothraki no longer existed. Aegon could no longer claim the crown over Aerys' children and be seen as legitimate despite questions about his legitimacy if a more proven and experienced contender existed who had dragons to back her claim with fire. Varys and Illyrio pivoted to have Aegon marry Daenerys (conveniently uniting Blackfyre and Targaryen once and for all) and cementing his claim as no one will question him if he comes with dragons.

Now Aegon has reversed the original plot. He has become the leader of the invading army of foreigners who are traditionally associated with Blackfyres. He has no proof of who he says he is and despite Varys' assumption that people will recognize his Kinglyness, I imagine a little more skepticism, especially if he is named a fraud by Daenerys who is legitimate without a doubt and has Dragons to back her claim with fire and blood.

"he forged a new sign for the yard, a three headed dragon of black iron that hung from a wooden post. the beast was so big it had been made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope an wire. when the wind blew it would clank and clatter , so thr inn became known far and wide as the clanking dragon "

"is the dragon sign still there ?" asked podrick.

"no" said septon meribald "when the smiths son was an old man , a bastard son of the forth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his true born brother and took for his sigil the black dragon. these lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to his king. the sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces , and cast them into the river, one of the dragons heads washed up on the quite isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

[StarkofWinterfell]

It's an interesting theory, but I have read in these forums before a sucint analysis of why Aegon's pop up should be considered as an element in the middle of the story rather than late. If we go with Martin original plan redacted in The letter, the story will cover three books (the war between the Starks and the Lannisters, Daenarys-Dothraki invasion and the battle against the Others... Poor, Martin, he was a summer child back then). So, giving that we have just "finished" with the War of the Five Kings, Aegon's show up is really in the middle of the saga.

I believe Martin could have changed his mind and come up with Aegon being alive as a way to accelarate Dany's arc (in this case Targaryen heir in Westeros arc). But I don't see why he has to do that. I know he has stated he plans to finish the saga in seven books, but her publishe already is contemplating and eight and if the books still sell, I don't see why he can extend the "original trilogy" on nine or even ten books. So, I think Dany have a lot of time to solve her Meereenese knot and reach Westeros.

Now, this may sound odd to many on these forums, but I like Dany's arc in Essos. First of all, I found Essosi culture really interesting, even more interesting than Westorosi and their stone tents. I like reading about the politics and society on the different cities. I also think necessary that Dany spent so much time in Essos. First of all, is her home, she grew there, and second, althought the war against the Others is really, really important, the struggle against the slave trade is equally important. We are talking about transform a millenial way of llfe. I will be really disapoint (of Dany and Martin) if the Silver Queen leaves Essos without setting in motion a different society than she found. That's her arc. The same as Jon Snow is chainging (or was changing) the society at The Wall border, Dany is changing the status quo of more than half the population of know Planetos.

And I also like the Aegon's invasion because it represent what Varys thaught Tyrion: "power resides where men decide". I don't care if he is the real son of Rhagear, or Illyrio, or Wun Wun: how Westeros react towards his claim is the important stuff. And if to that, we take into account the social change the Faith is promoving, we have a whole new discussion about power and goverment.

I completely agree that power resides where men decide, in this case it is where Aegon is taking action and seizing his opportunity. This is similar to the Latin phrase "to the victor go the spoils" or even "seize the day." Aegon is seizing the day and if he proves victories, he will have Westeros. I am excited to see how his story will play out.

[Lady Blackmont]

Aegon ties everything together. He's the reason for Illyrio and Varys plotting, and without him things just wouldn't add up. He's been referenced since the second book at the very latest, and I/V's conversation in the skull room doesn't make sense without him.

He didn't "Pop out of nowhere"

[kimim]

Not because Daenerys is by far my favourite character (as a fan, I doubt she’ll sit the Iron Throne though)

Dany fans tend to HATE Aegons introduction, so youre not unique. Many Dany fans feel like George "cheated" them, basically introducing a new character that seems to not only have a better claim, but also starts his invasion before her, probably getting to be the hero from Cersei and the Lannisters championing the Faith, and will face Dany who will be seen as an invader trying to Steal Aegons throne.

I love how George did that, its so GOT for Dany to be seen in such a fashion.

I'm not a Dany fan, and I really, really, really hate Aegon's intro.

I think the op's thing is off. If Dany's arc is supposed to be limited to Essos, then why does she play her infuriating waiting game in Dance? Her story doesn't. move. along, until the last couple of chapters when she takes off on Drogon. If her story were to be limited to Essos, then what is she waiting for?

It so happens that she's waiting for a bunch of people from Westeros: Tyrion, who wants to be her adviser, whose goal is to destroy his Westerosi family, and take CR. Victarion, of Westeros. Marwyn, of Westeros. She's got business in Westeros, and she has to get there eventually. Martin can't switch his Targ heir in book 5, as it would mean lots of wasted pages. Westeros is the heart of the story. Essos is not.

If Dany ends up staying in Essos, and if the story follows her completely unrelated set of adventures, I will begrudge every minute spent reading about her, and skip her povs.

[Frey Kings]

I am not sold on the Blackfyre theory, and here's my reasoning from another post: "My biggest argument is the lack of attention Blackfyres get in the main series of the book and by extension the TV series. Blackfyre rebellion is only mentioned a few times in book, mostly attributed to the bravery of Barriston Selmy when he killed the two-headed Blackfyre. Even worse, in the TV series Blackfyres are probably only mentioned once or twice. If the Blackfyre reveal does happen, a lot of the audience wouldn't even know what's going on." As much as GRRM likes plot twists, I don't see him dropping such a history-heavy twist with little to no forewarning.