Ned, the Three Sisters, and the Fisherman's daughter--how much do you believe?

[SummerSphinx]

In ADWD, Davos is left by SS in a boat off the Sisters and reaches Sweetsister. He was trying to find a way to White Harbor. While there, he was told that at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, Ned stark could not travel from the Eyrie to Winterfell to call his banners because Gulltown had stayed loyal to the crown. So Ned crossed some mountains, and traveled to the Fingers (near Littlefinger's home). He found a fisherman to sail him across the Bite. There was a bad storm, and the fisherman drowned, but his daughter managed to get Ned alive to the Sisters. "They say" that he left the fisherman's daughter with a bag of coins and a bastard in her belly. It is specifically stated that the fisherman's daughter named the bastard Jon Snow after Jon Arryn.

We know there are unreliable narrators and gossip. Yet, the way this story came up seemed off-hand. There seemed to be no real reason to tell that specific story to Davos.

So what elements of the story--if any--do you believe are true?

1. Do you believe Ned got washed up on the Sisters at the beginning of the Rebellion? (I think he must have, because there really isn't a lot of reason to make up the whole story. "Nothing is certain but Winter" sounds like Ned.)

2. Was there a young woman with him, or was that entirely invented by wagging tongues on the Sisters? (Less certain, but I think he may have been travelling with a woman. I say it is more likely than not. Otherwise, where did the story come from?).

3. If there was a young woman, was she really the daughter of the fisherman rowing Ned across the bite? (I cannot make up my mind about this.)

4. If there was a woman, did she really fall pregnant shortly thereafter, or is that just a tale? (It is interesting that the gossip on the Sisters is so different from the gossip Catelyn had heard. You would think if the story of Jon Snow had traveled to the Sisters from Dorne or Winterfell via gossip, that the Wyllla story or the Ashara story would travel, too. The fisherman's daughter story sounds like it has a local source. In such a small place, making it all up seems tricky. So even though it does not seem the least like Ned, it also seems odd that the story exists. If feels like there is SOMETHING there, even if it isn't the same as the tale.)

5. If there was a woman and she did fall pregnant, was she really pregnant by Ned--or by somebody else? (In real life, I'd say there's a good chance the fisherman's daughter would prefer to tell people the father of her bastard was a Lord than some drunk fisherman. She could have lied. But in the context of the whole story, what is the point of introducing a lying fisherman's daughter (who saved his life?). Maybe GRRM just wants to mess with people like me? In context, it just doesn't seem likely that Ned is the dad, though. Between his honor, the Dornish nurse Wylla, the Ashara tale...it seems strange to throw in a fling with a unknown fisherman's daughter from the Fingers. If it was before his wedding to Cat, why keep it a secret from Robert or Cat? The only reason I don't rule it out 100% is I can potentially see Ned being completely overwhelmed by raw emotion after they both almost died--Ned trying to comfort her in the loss of her father, she saved his life. The only reason for keeping it secret I can think of is that the bastard born to the woman is not the same Jon Snow that we know.)

6. If she really gave birth to a child, Jon Snow, is it the same baby as the character we know of as Jon Snow? Or was there another baby---also named Jon Snow? (This drives me nuts. It just doesn't seem likely that he is the same baby. Wouldn't Jon Snow be too old if he was conceived at this time? Or was it close enough to Ned's wedding to Cat?)

7. What are the chances Ned planted the story to protect L+R= J? (I think REALLY LOW, because at the time he didn't know about any child of Lyanna. It seems unlikely that he would make a special trip back after the war just to plant that story. He was busy with so many other things.)

Other possibilities: Ned was helping a woman from the Vale pregnant by Robert (not Ned); Ned was smuggling out someone like Ashara (unknown to anyone) who was pregnant by Brandon, Robert, or Ned; the whole story is gossip and fabrication.

What do you think?

[falcotron]

We know there are unreliable narrators and gossip. Yet, the way this story came up seemed off-hand. There seemed to be no real reason to tell that specific story to Davos.

A man who just sailed from the Wall washes up on your island. He starts talking about Stannis, some red witch you've never heard of, some pirate you've never heard of, and Jon Snow. You have a good story about Jon Snow. Why wouldn't you tell it to him?

[Fire Eater]

I think Ned was on the Sisters given Borrell's story sounded authentic, and he had no reason to lie. I think a fisherman's daughter did help Ned. I don't think Ned started the tale given he is reluctant to mention any details about Jon's mother. If she did have a baby I would put either another guy, maybe Robert, as the father. Robert had told Ned that he once bedded a fishmaid in AGoT.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

None of it, rumor and hearsay trying to explain a mystery. Gossip abhors a vacuum.

I do think he was on the sisters and spoke with Lord Borell.

[A Bastard Snow]

I find it more believable that the fisherman drowned and Ned Stark out of guilt of the man dying and knowing it to be the honorable thing gave her a bag of silver so she could take care of herself as her father was her primary or only caregiver.She then has a child afterwards and people make rumors.

Also.Why would Ned go all the way to Dorne and bring back a Wetnurse that is a member of the Dayne household for Jon.When he wouldn't have even known about him.

All of the textual evidence goes against this besides one guy saying "hey did you hear this rumor"

If you believe rumors then Robb and his army are Werewolves and Sansa transformed into a wolf tore Joffs throat out and then grew wings and flew away.

[BlueBard]

I think the different stories about Jon Snow's Mother are a natural progression because Ned wouldn't give any info so people simply added up separate pieces of info to draw their own conclusions. People do this all the time, I'd say every town in the North has a story about Ned Stark and Jon Snow's mother.

[falcotron]

If you believe rumors then Robb and his army are Werewolves

Hey, now, besides a PoV of the events, thematic consistency of the novels, the TV adaptation, the words of the author, and basic common sense, what reason do we have to disbelieve that rumor? :)

[Visenya Stark]

The fisherman's daughter is a red herring. D&D accurately guessed the identity of Jon Snow's mother. At the time, ADWD wasn't published. So Jon's mother can't be the fisherman's daughter.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I find it more believable that the fisherman drowned and Ned Stark out of guilt of the man dying and knowing it to be the honorable thing gave her a bag of silver so she could take care of herself as her father was her primary or only caregiver.She then has a child afterwards and people make rumors.

Also.Why would Ned go all the way to Dorne and bring back a Wetnurse that is a member of the Dayne household for Jon.When he wouldn't have even known about him.

:agree:

Ned was helped by a fisherman's daughter, who he gave money to out of gratitude, it is heard that that woman gives birth at some later point, and that Ned keeps a bastard son born around 283 at Winterfell, Borrell put 27 and 29 together and made 58.

[Ruby Fforde]

I do think he was on the sisters and spoke with Lord Borell.

This.

I think the different stories about Jon Snow's Mother are a natural progression because Ned wouldn't give any info so people simply added up separate pieces of info to draw their own conclusions. People do this all the time, I'd say every town in the North has a story about Ned Stark and Jon Snow's mother.

This.

I find it more believable that the fisherman drowned and Ned Stark out of guilt of the man dying and knowing it to be the honorable thing gave her a bag of silver so she could take care of herself as her father was her primary or only caregiver.She then has a child afterwards and people make rumors.

And this.

[Ice Turtle]

I believe Ned was on sisters and that there was a woman who helped him. But she never had a bastard, because there would need to be another baby as I firmly believe that Jon was born in Dorne.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. Do you believe Ned got washed up on the Sisters at the beginning of the Rebellion?

Yes. I don't think that this is impossible.

2. Was there a young woman with him, or was that entirely invented by wagging tongues on the Sisters? (Less certain, but I think he may have been travelling with a woman. I say it is more likely than not. Otherwise, where did the story come from?

Not even in the gossip there was a woman with him. He *found* her there.

3. If there was a young woman, was she really the daughter of the fisherman rowing Ned across the bite? (I cannot make up my mind about this.)

Not even in the gossip there was a woman with him. He *found* her there. Anyway she could had been one.

4. If there was a woman, did she really fall pregnant shortly thereafter, or is that just a tale?

She could been pregnant but not with Ned's child.

5. If there was a woman and she did fall pregnant, was she really pregnant by Ned--or by somebody else?

She could been pregnant but not with Ned's child.

7. What are the chances Ned planted the story to protect L+R= J?

I don't see why he should had done something like that and how he would had done it.

I had a crackpot theory that fisherman's daughtery is Wylla the wet nurse but I know that it's impossible.

[Ice Turtle]

Actually iirc the lord who told that story to Davos never named Jon as this girl's child.

They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

ADwD

If there are not supposed to be two Jon Snow's he did.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

ADwD

If there are not supposed to be two Jon Snow's he did.

I didn't remembered that. Thank you I am going to correct it.

[Beautiful Balon]

It's true, Ned was making bastards all over Westeros. That's why we can't figure out who the mother of Jon Snow is, because there twenty differnt candidates.

[The Fresh PtwP]

My reaction while reading that chapter:

"Oh Mya Stones mum came from the Sisters"

I'm gonna go with other possibility #1, for 800 OP.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1-3 are damn likely. Ned sailed that way, somebody sailed the ship or boat he was on, and fishing crafts are operated by a large chunk of the family in most cases.

4. Is likely as well. People have sex. People will get pregnant.

5. Not by Ned. Doesn't fit him.

6. Would require the old 24-month-pregnancy to work. Not gonna happen.

7. Damn low. Doesn't fit Ned's modus operandi and wouldn't be a good story, with the 24-month-pregnancy.

It's just gossip.

[SummerSphinx]

A man who just sailed from the Wall washes up on your island. He starts talking about Stannis, some red witch you've never heard of, some pirate you've never heard of, and Jon Snow. You have a good story about Jon Snow. Why wouldn't you tell it to him?

I'm not saying it is crazy he told the story. Just that there seems to be no ulterior motive, no reason to make something up, no strategic reason for telling the tale to Davos. Which makes me think Borell is honestly repeating what he knows or has heard (even if a chunk of the gossip turns out to be untrue gossip.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

There were two reasons for The George to include this little tale. First, the subject of Jon's mum had gone a little stale since Storm with Edric telling Arya about Jon and him beimg milk brothers, and this was another feint, yet another possibility, which further suggested to even the casual reader that something was not being told straight about Jon parentage. Second, it set up this line...

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. "You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?"

Jon IV, Dance 17

[CJ McLannister]

I don't think there's any reason to doubt that Ned traveled through the fingers to avoid Gulltown. The rest of the story is sketchy at best.

Maybe there was a daughter there.

Maybe she ended up pregnant.

Maybe she gave birth to a son.

Maybe she claimed that Ned was the father.

It's possible she even named him Jon Snow.

But if that's the case, there's just some other dude named Jon Snow (which is probably a pretty common name) who was born during the rebellion. But even if that's the case, he's very probably quite inconsequential.