The merits of Tyrion as a dragonrider

[XSarellaX]

Hello everyone :)

I'm not starting this thread to discuss whether Tyrion will become a dragonrider, or if he's Aerys son. Rather, I want to ask you: if this comes to pass, do you think it will be satisfying for his arc?

I'm deeply bothered by this idea, and only lately I was able to understand why. Tyrion is a character who never had physical power to force people to do what he wants. He has to rely on his intelligence, ability with politics and manipulation etc. Someone like him suddenly getting the power to burn an army on his own feels a bit... Not exactly cheap, but it would lose some of the subtley of his arc. It would be as if Varys was revealed as a great swordsman in hiding and became a war leader or something.

Besides, he's always wanted a dragon. I'd find it much more bittersweet if he gets close enough to see one, but never becomes a dragonrider.

[Grayce Hornwood]

It does seem like a rather abrupt shift to his character, so I have to agree that I don't necessarily like the idea of him riding a dragon. I think he's far more interesting as a character that is powerful, not in the normal sense of the word, but by his intellect and wit.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Keep in mind that the endgame -- I think -- is a big battle with the Others. Tyrion's intellect and wit are not going to be particularly useful in such a battle. Riding a dragon would be. While perhaps his talents could be useful in figuring out how to get everyone to stop worrying about the game or thrones and start worrying about the threat from the North. But he would play an even bigger role as one of the 3 war generals, riding in on a dragon. Personally, I suspect (although I am not 100% certain) that such is both his destiny and will be written in a way that will be quite satisfying for his story arc. Of course, some people will not find it satisfying, but no one can please everyone all the time.

[Greg B]

Hello everyone :)

I'm not starting this thread to discuss whether Tyrion will become a dragonrider, or if he's Aerys son. Rather, I want to ask you: if this comes to pass, do you think it will be satisfying for his arc?

I'm deeply bothered by this idea, and only lately I was able to understand why. Tyrion is a character who never had physical power to force people to do what he wants. He has to rely on his intelligence, ability with politics and manipulation etc. Someone like him suddenly getting the power to burn an army on his own feels a bit... Not exactly cheap, but it would lose some of the subtley of his arc.

Actually, this is why I think it would be so interesting. I'd like to see what Tyrion would do with it if he suddenly gained this kind of power based on size and strength for the first time in his life.

[Jô Maltese]

Actually, this is why I think it would be so interesting. I'd like to see what Tyrion would do with it if he suddenly gained this kind of power based on size and strength for the first time in his life.

Precisely. At present, despite his political and management genius, Tyrion's credibility as a ruler is close to zero: his potential followers are Podrick and Bronn (and maybe Varys), the rest of the kingdom (or Planetos even) sees him as the Imp, a bloody monster who killed his king and nephew and his father, also as a Lannister hated by all the other great Houses. And despite his genuine courage in battle or unexpected leadership skills ("half-man!"), he is certainly not seen as a glorious knight either. But riding a dragon could be a hell of an approval rating boost by making him a warrior, a Targaryen bastard prince or even a saviour. In short, by riding a dragon he would cease to be a dwarf and a Lannister for the public and would fulfil the one remaining condition for him to become a great political leader of the 7K (Warden, Hand or King): legitimacy (a full-standard man and a ​blood prince - bastard or not), and belief in his power (a mighty warrior and/ or a magician).

Remember Varys' speech:

Varys - "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

Tyrion - "So power is a mummer's trick?"

Varys - "A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And oft times a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

[Chinoiserie]

Characters doing what you previously thought was impossible for them is always interesting to me since it opens up story possibilities, character development, reactions from other characters and thematic value with you do not have to be stuck as a same person with same options forever.

I suppose people most dislike this because Tyrion could be over-powered. But I think that Tyrion has been down on his luck and disrespect for so long (especially in Dance, I believe Martin had Tyrion stubble for this very reason) it will come as a epic and exciting moment not one that makes him a Mary Sue. GRRM is a better writer than that.

And Tyrion's midst has been so dark and stuck in a same place for so long he needs something unexpected and positive for him to happen so he will get to a new mindset. And isn't this what everyone wants?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes, it if happens it will be meaningful. GRRM does not write crap.

It does seem like a rather abrupt shift to his character, so I have to agree that I don't necessarily like the idea of him riding a dragon. I think he's far more interesting as a character that is powerful, not in the normal sense of the word, but by his intellect and wit.

And the last person who tried to claim a dragon and got roasted didn't have much intellect or wit. Those two things may be what's required to tame a dragon with whom you have previously had no bond. All three dragons imprinted on Daenerys at birth. Anyone else trying to ride them needs all the help they can get.

Honestly, no matter what else anyone thinks about Tyrion riding a dragon, it would be worth it just for the look on Cersei's face.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It would absolutely be satisfying for his arc. He's set up wonderfully to aid Daenerys as she returns to Westeros. I'm assuming she will come to Aegon's aid just as Tyrion told Aegon she would. She believes there are two men in the world she can trust. I'm assuming she'll believe one is Aegon. I'm assuming the Second Dance of the Dragons will get going when Aegon's true colors are revealed, and Daenerys will know her three treasons, one being Tyrion for all the gold of Casterly Rock, as he swings the white over to Aegon's side, just like Ulf the White did in the First Dance of the Dragons. After Daenerys beats them at the Trident, though, I could see this possible foreshadowing being fulfilled...

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Tyrion I, Game 9

...as Nymeria hunts the little bugger down.

[Fire Eater]

I don't think Tyrion is Aerys's son as the timeline in WOIAF doesn't fit, and it would contribute nothing to the plot. I think it is more likely he is descended from Lord Plumm's Targaryen wife. Lords tend to marry within their regions, and the Plumms are westermen. The half-Targaryen Plumm children would have made desirable picks for marriage, and could have married into other Westerlands houses that in turn married into House Lannister.

I think plenty of hints point to Tyrion mounting Viserion. Tyrion is associated with the white dragon in cyvasse.

[Jô Maltese]

I don't think Tyrion is Aerys's son as the timeline in WOIAF doesn't fit (1) and it would contribute nothing to the plot (2). I think it is more likely he is descended from Lord Plumm's Targaryen wife. Lords tend to marry within their regions, and the Plumms are westermen. The half-Targaryen Plumm children would have made desirable picks for marriage, and could have married into other Westerlands houses that in turn married into House Lannister. (3)

I think plenty of hints point to Tyrion mounting Viserion. Tyrion is associated with the white dragon in cyvasse. (4)

(1) Yes it does! Hence the revival of the theory.

(2) Yes it would, nothing you would like rather.

(3) aWoIaF does not open any door on this.

(4) Here we fully agree: Get on with it: Tyrion WILL ride Viserion ;)

[falcotron]

Honestly, no matter what else anyone thinks about Tyrion riding a dragon, it would be worth it just for the look on Cersei's face.

And suddenly, I warmed to the theory.

Although I'm not sure how you'd write this in a novel. Maybe we're seeing Dany's attack on KL from Cersei's PoV, and she's being snide and dismissive, and then she sees Tyrion on Viserion's back, and the rest of the chapter is just solid red pages with no words. :)

[Fire Eater]

(1) Yes it does! Hence the revival of the theory.

(2) Yes it would, nothing you would like rather.

(3) aWoIaF does not open any door on this.

(4) Here we fully agree: Get on with it: Tyrion WILL ride Viserion ;)

1)Maybe, but Tywin would have resigned if Aerys raped his wife. Joanna could have used moon tea, there was no taboo against it.

2)The fallacy of appeal to motive. Keep this professional instead of personal please. Tyrion being Aerys's son contributes nothing to the storyline, and would only take away the shock R+L=J. One person with secret Targaryen lineage is enough.

3) The main series does as confirmed by Tyrion, and Plumm is mentioned several times. The WOIAF provides no lineage of all the westerlands houses proving otherwise so that make sit entirely possible that the Targaryen princess is the Lannisters' ancestor.

[chrisdaw]

Despite his big boy words to Jon, Tyrion is damn near a professional "why me?" victim. When he gets a dragon he'll have no more excuses, there will be nothing stacked against him, he'll be one of the three most powerful people in the world, damn near complete freedom, about as much as anyone else has ever been allowed anyway, and then we'll see if he can really be as righteous and basically shit hot as he has always thought he would be if it weren't for the world being stacked against him.

[Jô Maltese]

1)Maybe, but Tywin would have resigned if Aerys raped his wife. Joanna could have used moon tea, there was no taboo against it.

2)The fallacy of appeal to motive. Keep this professional instead of personal please. Tyrion being Aerys's son contributes nothing to the storyline, and would only take away the shock R+L=J. One person with secret Targaryen lineage is enough.

3) The main series does as confirmed by Tyrion, and Plumm is mentioned several times. The WOIAF provides no lineage of all the westerlands houses proving otherwise so that make sit entirely possible that the Targaryen princess is the Lannisters' ancestor.

It's the pot calling the kettle black... Your statement is just entirely subjective.

[Lord Varys]

This Plumm theory does't hold any water. It is a fringe theory which hasn't any backing in the text. Alysanne Farman didn't have any children, and Lady Rohanne Webber cannot have any Plumm ancestors.

Theoretically Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester could have been descended from Viserys Plumm, but if that was the case then Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei would have been aware of them being second or third cousins to the present-day Plumms - which they are not. The Plumms in the West come up in AFfC in a conversation between Jaime and Cersei, and it is revealed that Jaime doesn't even know about the Ossifer-Elaena-Aegon story. And Tyrion also never thinks about the fact that Brown Ben may be his distant cousin - one expects that this would have come up in the whole sucking up to Ben process at the end of ADwD if it was the case.

Lastly, we don't know anything about Plumm girls. There may not have been any. Viserys was an only child, and Brown Ben is supposedly descended from one of his younger sons - there are no daughters mentioned. Even if there were, the Plumms never seemed to recover from the blow Aegon the Unworthy dealt them when he claimed all their riches for himself after Ossifer's death. The Plumms clearly are no longer a house of high-standing in the West. Like the Westerlings they would be shunned by their snobbish peers after they lost their wealth - not to mention that them being effectively considered to be a Targaryen bastard line it is not all that likely that the Lannisters - or the families they take their brides from - would actually intermarry with them after the Ossifer episode. The fact that a younger son of Lord Viserys had to leave Westeros and make a living in Essos strongly suggests that Plumm lands could not longer feed any younger sons. The would make it rather tricky for the Plumms to pay the dowry to marry any female children they may have had into prominent families of the West.

Not to mention that this would be a crappy story. If you can ride a dragon if you have a very diluted drop of Targaryen blood than pretty much everybody can become a dragonrider. Jon Snow could also have Targaryen blood through some obscure ancestor down the line - if we assume he'll become a dragonrider. This whole dragon heads thing is supposed to sort of resemble Aegon and his sisters - which means they won't be very distant cousins (or not related to each other at all) but people who will be close to each other on an emotional level as well as on biological/family level. These three guys have to accomplish some serious stuff. There will be have to some thing that brings and binds them together - just having a dragon won't be enough to conclude that you have to fight the Others together (or do whatever the three dragon heads are supposed to do together). It is hardly a coincidence that Jon Snow and Tyrion bonded in AGoT - and neither it is a coincidence that Tyrion will eventually meet Daenerys.

Dany thinking that Aegon is actually her nephew is rather unlikely at this point. She has Tyrion to feed her doubts - and the man does doubt that Aegon is Rhaegar's son - and she will have the Tattered Prince to give her Varys and Illyrio's back story or parts of that. That doesn't necessarily mean there must be a war between these two - after all, it may be that Dany also thinks that the color of the dragon does not matter all that much - but she'll certainly not share the opinion of Aegon's supporters that he has the better claim if he is not Rhaegar's son (and she may also consider herself to come before him since she was Viserys' heir and the only surviving child of the last Targaryen king).

[BlueBard]

I think Tyrion will handle the power much better since his nervous breakdown after killing Tywin and Shae. His previous devil may care attitude to life has changed dramatically. He was always a philosophical man and that will only increase after going through the type of mental illness that his pov chapters portray after SoS. Rejecting the Lannisters so thoroughly means he will be acutely aware of their less noble traits-harshness, arrogance, deliberate casual cruelty, no real understanding of the responsibility of power. I think he will be exactly the type of dragonrider/ruler the realm needs, the opposite of men like Tywin, RB and Randall Tarly. Tyrion knows what it feels like to be on the losing side, I think that will moderate his wanton killing spree potential.

[Mithras]

(3) aWoIaF does not open any door on this.

But it does not close it either. Marla Prester and/or Jeyne Marbrand might be granddaughters of Viserys Plumm. Timeline allows it.

The World Book does not suggest that Tyrion was born 9 months after the anniversary tourney.

[Mithras]

This Plumm theory does't hold any water. It is a fringe theory which hasn't any backing in the text. Alysanne Farman didn't have any children, and Lady Rohanne Webber cannot have any Plumm ancestors.

Theoretically Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester could have been descended from Viserys Plumm, but if that was the case then Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei would have been aware of them being second or third cousins to the present-day Plumms - which they are not. The Plumms in the West come up in AFfC in a conversation between Jaime and Cersei, and it is revealed that Jaime doesn't even know about the Ossifer-Elaena-Aegon story. And Tyrion also never thinks about the fact that Brown Ben may be his distant cousin - one expects that this would have come up in the whole sucking up to Ben process at the end of ADwD if it was the case.

Lastly, we don't know anything about Plumm girls. There may not have been any. Viserys was an only child, and Brown Ben is supposedly descended from one of his younger sons - there are no daughters mentioned. Even if there were, the Plumms never seemed to recover from the blow Aegon the Unworthy dealt them when he claimed all their riches for himself after Ossifer's death. The Plumms clearly are no longer a house of high-standing in the West. Like the Westerlings they would be shunned by their snobbish peers after they lost their wealth - not to mention that them being effectively considered to be a Targaryen bastard line it is not all that likely that the Lannisters - or the families they take their brides from - would actually intermarry with them after the Ossifer episode. The fact that a younger son of Lord Viserys had to leave Westeros and make a living in Essos strongly suggests that Plumm lands could not longer feed any younger sons. The would make it rather tricky for the Plumms to pay the dowry to marry any female children they may have had into prominent families of the West.

Not to mention that this would be a crappy story. If you can ride a dragon if you have a very diluted drop of Targaryen blood than pretty much everybody can become a dragonrider. Jon Snow could also have Targaryen blood through some obscure ancestor down the line - if we assume he'll become a dragonrider. This whole dragon heads thing is supposed to sort of resemble Aegon and his sisters - which means they won't be very distant cousins (or not related to each other at all) but people who will be close to each other on an emotional level as well as on biological/family level. These three guys have to accomplish some serious stuff. There will be have to some thing that brings and binds them together - just having a dragon won't be enough to conclude that you have to fight the Others together (or do whatever the three dragon heads are supposed to do together). It is hardly a coincidence that Jon Snow and Tyrion bonded in AGoT - and neither it is a coincidence that Tyrion will eventually meet Daenerys.

Dany thinking that Aegon is actually her nephew is rather unlikely at this point. She has Tyrion to feed her doubts - and the man does doubt that Aegon is Rhaegar's son - and she will have the Tattered Prince to give her Varys and Illyrio's back story or parts of that. That doesn't necessarily mean there must be a war between these two - after all, it may be that Dany also thinks that the color of the dragon does not matter all that much - but she'll certainly not share the opinion of Aegon's supporters that he has the better claim if he is not Rhaegar's son (and she may also consider herself to come before him since she was Viserys' heir and the only surviving child of the last Targaryen king).

Dude, you contradict with yourself. First you say that Jaime/Cersei are not aware of being cousins to present day Plumms and then you claim that the Plumms might be shunned because of having lost wealth/prestige in the reign of Aegon IV.

Then you claim that Lannisters would not marry Ossifer's descendants due to rumors of bastardy. However, you should consider Tytos and Jason. The former was not the heir when he married Jeyne and the latter's lightning-fast marriage to Marla (twice his age at the wedding) was like a punishment of sorts.

This would be a crappy story for your taste but that is not universal. For me, bloodline elitism would be a crappy story. And the crappiest thing would be three heads = three dragonriders = three saviors.

[Lord Freypie]

While I'd be perfectly fine with Tyrion not being revealed the son of Aerys nor becoming a dragon rider (although I rather believe it will happen), I think it will be interesting to see how he reacts to his new power and even more to his recognition by Daenerys and her supporters if he's revealed of Targ blood.

Will the perceived prejudice he was victim of as a weak dwarf make him use this new power to go on with purely destructive revenge plans ? Or will he (try to) use this new prestige to try to build an happier life than he ever dreamed (a dragon knight being a bit sexier than some monstruous dwarf, will it help him to finally find love, convince the western lords to support his claim, etc... ?) ? Will it make him even more ambitious, and target the crown for himself, or will he become a loyal supporter of his new family (and which side, Dany or Aegon ?) ? How will it impact his relations with characters he knew in his previous life ? Will this new power make him realise that power only comes with responsabilities ? Etc...

As everything big happening in a character life, it can trigger interesting character evolution, so I wouldn't resume Tyrion getting a dragon to "author favorite being unfairly rewarded with the dragon he dreamed of and becoming a Mary Sue" like detractors of this scenario tend to, before even reading how it will happen, and what kind of evolution it will trigger, if true.

Tyrion dragonrider has huge potential because it's giving a lot of agency to one of the most interesting, complex, and grey character, whose arc direction is very hard to predict.

[XSarellaX]

I think Tyrion will handle the power much better since his nervous breakdown after killing Tywin and Shae. His previous devil may care attitude to life has changed dramatically. He was always a philosophical man and that will only increase after going through the type of mental illness that his pov chapters portray after SoS. Rejecting the Lannisters so thoroughly means he will be acutely aware of their less noble traits-harshness, arrogance, deliberate casual cruelty, no real understanding of the responsibility of power. I think he will be exactly the type of dragonrider/ruler the realm needs, the opposite of men like Tywin, RB and Randall Tarly. Tyrion knows what it feels like to be on the losing side, I think that will moderate his wanton killing spree potential.

I don't know about that... Tyrion was never a monster, not even in DwD, but right now, he's a bit.. Screwed up. Ruthless, vengeful, more like Tywin then ever.

You seem to think that because his father mistreated him he will reject Tywin's beliefs. I think he will seek to emulate his father even more, so he can be the guy fucking other people, instead of being on the losing end. Like someone who becomes a bully after being abused.

But he might get over this moment, eventually.