Lord Highland Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 As I rewatched the first episode of the series I noticed Starks and Lannisters aren't exactly friendly to each-other even before Bran is pushed from the tower, so I decided to reread the first chapters of aGoT too. In the books this is not as pronounced as in the series, but it is still clear Stark and Lannister don't like each-other. First, Jon looks at Ned & Cersei in the Great Hall:"His father helped her up the steps to the dais and led her to her seat, but the queen never so much as looked at him." Next, a very suspicious quote from Jaime, talking to Tyrion:Tyrion: "I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to listen to what he had to say".Jaime: "Tyrion, my sweet brother, there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on". Tyrion: "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother, you wound me. You know how much I love my family".Note that at this moment Jaime is aware of the fact that nor the Starks nor anyone else knows that it was him who pushes Bran, yet he already sees sides. What makes this more interesting is Tyrion is not surprised at all, responding with an ironic comment, and even confirming that he knows one of these sides is his family. There are also a couple of negative remarks by Ned regarding Tywin and "Lannister pride" in his first chapter, when discussing Robert Arryn's fostering. Finally, Cersei insists on killing Lady even though she is innocent. The Starks, and Lady, had done nothing against Cersei or the Lannisters until that moment, so why would she have Lady killed? Of course, she is a little crazy, but it is clear this attitude is related to her general feeling about the Starks. Besides these, in the series the mutual dislike is even clearer in the exchanges between Benjen & Tyrion, Jon & Tyrion (at first), Cersei and all the Starks (when she arrives, when she talks to Catelyn in the Great Hall, when she speaks to Sansa), and Benjen even explicitly tells Jon he should go inside to save Ned from an evening with the Lannisters. I am not including the Ned-Jaime scene since that dislike is probably personal, related to the Kingslaying. So, with all these hints, it seems none of the families were fond of each-other, even before Bran's accident, although the reason is unclear. I don't think it's just a cultural thing since Starks have no problem with other many other families, and vice-versa. What could be the reason? Was the deterioration of the Stark-Lannister relations just an escalation of the already existing problematic relations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ned had serious problems with pretty much everything the Lannisters did during the Rebellion (and the rewards they got in the aftermath), which strongly influences his opinions at the start of the series. Can't think of anything else than that for their poor relations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ned had serious problems with pretty much everything the Lannisters did during the Rebellion (and the rewards they got in the aftermath), which strongly influences his opinions at the start of the series. Can't think of anything else than that for their poor relations. I'm re-reading GoT right now and I have the same impression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The Starks were insanely jealous of them. It was kind of pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydden Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The Starks were insanely jealous of them. It was kind of pathetic. I suppose I can see that. The Lannisters were a powerful and wealthy Southern House living in the lap of luxury who in spite of joining the rebellion out of convenience got all kind of rewards that should have gone to them, if Lyanna had survived and married Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Little Sister Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ned is all about honor. Tywin showed lack of honor both in turning up late to a war that was all but won and in killing the Targ babies. Ned also perceives Jaime's actions as dishonorable, since he broke his Kingsguard vows to kill Aerys (although we now know that that particular killing was not within its own sort of honor). The Lannisters don't really like anyone. They only act nice if they believe they need something from you or if you are indebting yourselves to them. The Starks are one of the greatest houses in the realm. They don't need Lannister gold and don't seek Lannister favor. They command more land and a larger army than the Lannisters. I think it is easy to see why two of the proudest houses in the realm might dislike one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I suppose I can see that. The Lannisters were a powerful and wealthy Southern House living in the lap of luxury who in spite of joining the rebellion out of convenience got all kind of rewards that should have gone to them, if Lyanna had survived and married Robert.Are you being sarcastic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Wolves_Will_Come_Again Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I suppose I can see that. The Lannisters were a powerful and wealthy Southern House living in the lap of luxury who in spite of joining the rebellion out of convenience got all kind of rewards that should have gone to them, if Lyanna had survived and married Robert.I dont think jealousy was Neds style. I agree with the little sister guys first paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Stark Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I think the Lannisters are a type of house who thinks that they can push every houses around, cause they got the moolah and power. They claim to boost descent from Lann the Clever, and they are an old house. I think there some type of rivalry between the great houses, just as we have today in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The Starks were insanely jealous of them. It was kind of pathetic. Not even a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selena Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ned is all about honor. Tywin showed lack of honor both in turning up late to a war that was all but won and in killing the Targ babies. Ned also perceives Jaime's actions as dishonorable, since he broke his Kingsguard vows to kill Aerys (although we now know that that particular killing was not within its own sort of honor). The Lannisters don't really like anyone. They only act nice if they believe they need something from you or if you are indebting yourselves to them. The Starks are one of the greatest houses in the realm. They don't need Lannister gold and don't seek Lannister favor. They command more land and a larger army than the Lannisters. I think it is easy to see why two of the proudest houses in the realm might dislike one another. pretty much this...the Lannisters believe no one is better then them and your only as valuable as you are useful to them. As the Starks stay out of "southron" politics they are not useful. On the flip side, the Starks are used to being THE family and,like most northerners, look down on anyone from below Moat Calin so have little respect for the Lannisters. Add to this Ned's dislike of Tywin and Jamie's actions during the rebellion which would have influenced those around him and you have the makings of a pot ready to be stirred by someone like Littlefinger or Vareys when needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The Lannisters are elitist city dwellers who look down on mountain hicks. Sooooo obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydden Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Are you being sarcastic? I dont think jealousy was Neds style. I agree with the little sister guys first paragraph. Oh, I don't think Ned wished to live in Casterly Rock and bathe in gold a la Scrooge McDuck. What I mean is the Starks didn't really get anything from the war. They got into it to avenge Brandon and Rickard and to get Lyanna back and they suffered the losses. But they got what they wanted, and I don't think Ned wanted anything else. What must have pissed him off is that the Lannisters, who joined entirely out of convenience when the war was all but over got rewarded for it, to the point Cersei took what was supposed to be his sister's place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename: Nymeria Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The Lannisters are elitist city dwellers who look down on mountain hicks.Sooooo obvious. Highly agreed. And the Starks are good ol' Northern country boys who can't stand bougie pretty-boy city dwellers. Pretty much everybody hates everybody who isn't them at some point in this series. Kind of like Earth, but with a lot more nudity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeburners Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Maybe Cersei thought that Lady was the younger and prettier queen coming to replace her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The revelation for me as I delved deeper into the backstory and history of Westeros over time, was that the Starks and Lannister do not appear to have been traditional enemies. Their current enmity at thr time of GoT appears to stem entirely from two, very recent sources:1. Ned's disapproval of Tywin and Jaime's lack of honor, and2. Cersei's jealousy of Lyanna and to a lesser extent of Ned's close relationship with Robert.Prior to the Rebellion I haven't really come across any major disagreements between the two Houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KINGpanther Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yeh, Tywins treatment of Rhaegars family was the main reason for sour relations. Also didn't Ned get pissed with Robert and return North when Robert OK'd Tywin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Highland Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Most of what I am reading in this post focuses on Ned's opinion on the Lannisters, except for this one: 2. Cersei's jealousy of Lyanna and to a lesser extent of Ned's close relationship with Robert. But how can you explain the Jaime/Tyrion discussion? They are already talking about sides, and Tyrion is aware of it too. This cannot be just a general arrogance toward everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 It would appear there was a somewhat official souring of relations between the two Houses in the aftermath of the Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Buckethead Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Lannister lack of Honor explains the Stark disdain for the Lannisters Roberts love of Lyanna, and Cercei's jealousy of her, combined with the Lannisters' anger over the Starks' "holier than thou" attitude was the reason for the Lannisters disdain for the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.