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In Pact of Ice and Fire it was promised that some targaryen woman will marry him, and it was said that there wasn't enough targaryens at the end of war, but what about baela and rhaena? They were alive, and at least baela wasn't married at this point ( we don't know when rhaena married corbray), so why cregan married black aly blackwood? Just because she was pretty? If so, look like falling in love with not important persons is in stark's blood.


Also what bothers me, is that in hour of the wolf he actually did not anything against poisoners of Aegon II.


Sure, he arrested twenty-two men, but only two of them were executed. He even freed Corlys just because he was asked for it. And after all, he just came back to north and never came back.


He really seems to me like Robb, guy with big army, but no sense to politics, and bad sense for alliances through marriages.




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Cregan Stark was still a very young man at this point. The Hour of the Wolf is a very close variation of Ned's arrival at KL after the Sack. But unlike Ned Cregan Stark really held sway. While he didn't execute many people, I'm pretty sure he caught most of the man guilty of the crime - unlike Ned later on who failed to punish both Jaime and Tywin and his dogs.



The two men Cregan actually executed - Ser Gyles Belgrave of the Kingsguard and Lord Larys Strong - seem to have been actually loyal to their king. They wouldn't have been executed as suspected poisoners, I presume, but because they were serving the false king (else Cregan would have been a really weird guy).


It is perfectly fitting Stark logic due to their twisted sense of honor that the Green leaders as well as the Green defectors have to be punished. Cregan certainly intended to kill/slay Aegon II in battle or execute him after his arrest as well as his inner circle and the major Greens - he intended to punish Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and Storm's End for their treason - but he also did not condone any acts of vile treason against the liege those men had sworn to serve. Not to mention that he would have been pissed since they stole his victory from him he had marched south bent on fighting a war, not to find people there trying to cut his efforts short by defecting to his side, murdering the false king, and crowning Aegon III.



Belgrave actually refused to take the black and stated that he did not want to survive his king - that's not something a man would say who was actually involved in the murder of that king. Or if he was involved in that despite his devotion to his king because he felt it was necessary for the greater good etc. he most likely would shared the cup of poison with his king to not survive him.


Lord Larys was nothing if not a staunch Green loyalist through the whole Dance to the best of our knowledge - there is no reason to assume that he was involved in Aegon's murder, especially not in the light of the the fact that Aegon III and his friends may not actually look kindly on him considering how involved he was in the events that led eventually to Rhaenyra's demise.



I actually believe Corlys Velaryon was the man behind the poisoning of Aegon II. He was the one who counseled Aegon to take the black when the Tully army stood before the city gates, offering him a last chance to get sort of cleanly out of this mess. He had advised a similar cause to Rhaenyra before - urging her to offer her half-brothers to take the black if they laid down their weapons. When he refused to listen to him Corlys decided to end the war himself. Not to mention that Corlys most likely never truly defected to Aegon's side after the latter pardoned him. Yes, Corlys had his issues with Rhaenyra in the end, but Aegon II and Aemond were the ones actually responsible for the death of his beloved wife, Princess Rhaenys, and all of his grandsons by Laenor and Rhaenyra - if they were his - died in the fighting against the Greens, as did his own son, Addam Velaryon. Aegon the Younger was his uncle's hostage, and I assume this also gave Aegon II some leverage over Corlys who sort of was the adoptive grandfather of the boy (due to the fact that Prince Daemon had been Laena's first husband). But more importantly, it seems that Aegon II also had Baela Targaryen, Corlys' own granddaughter, as a hostage since he took Dragonstone. That fact would have been the main incentive for Corlys to grudgingly serve Aegon II but only up to a point. And once it was clear that this king had no chance to survive, he took it upon himself to get rid of him.



As to why Cregan didn't marry Baela after the war:



I imagine he decided he didn't want her. We don't know any details about Black Aly Blackwood but my guess is she must have been quite a woman, to say the least. It is said that Aly agreed to marry Cregan if he, in turn, upheld the pardon of Corlys Velaryon Aegon III had issued. That suggests that Cregan was very taken by Aly at this point - else such a proposal most likely wouldn't have swayed him, especially if he knew that Corlys Velaryon was the one behind the poisoning of Aegon II. Considering that Baela and Rhaena were also involved in the scheming that led to Aegon III pardoning their grandfather, one also expect that Baela and Rhaena's female charms and promises of marriage (possible at least in Baela's case) didn't do trick. Thus I'd say it was Cregan Stark who decided to spurn his Targaryen girl, not the other way around.



Baela would then have married Alyn Velaryon in the 131 AC, I think, as a means to secure the succession of Driftmark. This match was clearly arranged by Corlys to secure his legacy and conducted before his death in 132 AC. Not sure when Rhaena married, though. Could have been during the Dance while she was in the Vale, or after the war ended in 131 AC. Her second marriage clearly looks like a match arranged during the Regency, possibly shortly after the unfortunate death of her husband.


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In Pact of Ice and Fire it was promised that some targaryen woman will marry him, and it was said that there wasn't enough targaryens at the end of war, but what about baela and rhaena? They were alive, and at least baela wasn't married at this point ( we don't know when rhaena married corbray), so why cregan married black aly blackwood? Just because she was pretty? If so, look like falling in love with not important persons is in stark's blood.


Also what bothers me, is that in hour of the wolf he actually did not anything against poisoners of Aegon II.


Sure, he arrested twenty-two men, but only two of them were executed. He even freed Corlys just because he was asked for it. And after all, he just came back to north and never came back.


He really seems to me like Robb, guy with big army, but no sense to politics, and bad sense for alliances through marriages.






In the Pact of Ice and Fire it was agreed that a Targaryen princess would marry into House Stark. Nowhere is it stated that the princess would have married Cregan himself, nor is it specified when this marriage was supposed to take place. Cregan himself agreed to marry Alysanne Blackwood shortly after the war had ended, after she offered him her hand. So if he himself was the Stark from the Pact who was supposed to marry, it kind of sounds like he choose not to continue the pact.



I think that chances are higher that the Pact was supposed to be fullfilled by Cregan's eldest son, Rickard, placing Targaryen blood in the Stark line. Why that never happened, though, is another matter entirely.


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Rhaenys,



I think it was indicated somewhere by Ran that Cregan himself was the one who was supposed to get a Targaryen girl. My guess is that the bride Jace suggested to Cregan was Rhaena. Yes, she was betrothed to Lucerys Velaryon, but by the time Jace arrived at Winterfell and treated with Lord Cregan, Luke most likely was already dead. Considering the fact that Jace would have spent quite some time in the Vale, on the Sisters, and at White Harbor, it is quite that the news about Luke's death reached him before he reached Winterfell, enabling him to use Rhaena's hand as coin in his negotiations with Lord Cregan.



That, in turn, could also explain why Rhaenyra wasn't all that happy about the legitimization of Addam and Alyn of Hull. After all, considering that Laenor's sons most likely weren't his seed (and both Corlys and Rhaenys would have known or suspected as much if it was true) the betrothal between Laena's daughters and Rhaenyra's sons may have been important to ensure that Corlys' blood continued to rule on Driftmark. However, it does not seem as if Rhaena was betrothed to Joffrey Velaryon after Luke's early death. Jace remained betrothed to Baela - that is, if Mushroom isn't correct and he didn't marry Lord Cregan's bastard sister in secret - and they would eventually succeed Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne, but Driftmark would go to Joffrey who may not have been a Velaryon by blood, and wouldn't be married to Laena's daughter.



If the legitimation decree Rhaenyra signed put Addam and Alyn - who were both older than Joffrey - before him in the succession for Driftmark one can see why Rhaenyra wouldn't be all that happy with that. If that's the case Jace must have been quite the diplomat/politician. Especially in light of the fact that he and Corlys made Addam and Alyn Laenor's sons - which served a double purpose: It strengthened the parentage of Rhaenyra's elder sons (if Laenor had had bastards there is less reason to doubt he wouldn't have fathered sons on Rhaenyra) while also ensuring that Corlys' own blood would inherit Driftmark. By making the boys Laenor's sons instead of Corlys' a good case could be made that they came before Joffrey in the succession (which would have been more difficult if they had been legitimized as Corlys' sons).



Jace's death not so soon thereafter made then Joffrey Prince of Dragonstone anyway, so the problem sort of solved itself but I guess Rhaenyra wasn't all that happy with the fact that things looked as if neither of her sons by Laenor would get Driftmark.


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Lord Varys,



Really? I must have missed that post of Ran.. Do you think you can perhaps find it again?



True, it is possible that Jace had heard of Lucerys' death by the time he reached Winterfell. And if so, he could indeed have offered Rhaena as a possible bride.. But that would have been for Cregan himself then, I guess, not for his son? If this is the case, I wonder why Cregan decided to marry Alysanne instead..



Completely agree on the Driftmark inheritance issue.


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If I remember correctly then this wasn't a post here on the boards but on one of their interviews/Q&As elsewhere. It may have been the one in which they expanded a little bit on the Pact of Ice and Fire.


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I think you. But it could be that I just inferred the stuff. Promising Cregan a Targaryen girl for his son wouldn't make all that much sense if that girl wasn't even born yet. Jace couldn't give Cregan a guarantee that he or his brothers would ever have any daughters, especially since neither was married yet.


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I'm not familiar with this talk about Cregan's bastard sister. Could someone give the gist of it? Does this mean Mushroom's thing about Jace's dragon leaving eggs at Winterfell was a euphemism for Jace himself leaving a child there?



As for why, if Rhaena was promised to Cregan, he would marry Aly Blackwood instead, mightn't Rhaena's marriage to Ser Corwyn Corbray be a factor? Of course that would have required her to marry young since Rhaena was about 15 when the Hour of the Wolf happened. That said, she was only 18 or so when Ser Corwyn died, so it might not be that strange. Of course, we then have the followup of, if Cregan was to marry Rhaena but could not because she had already married, why not marry Baela. One possible solution to this problem would have Baela also married already, to Alyn Velaryon. Could this possibly have been something orchestrated by Corlys? This could also possibly explain why Black Aly's marrying Cregan was one of the factors in Cregan allowing Corlys to be pardoned, if Cregan felt that Corlys had denied him his promised bride.


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As for why, if Rhaena was promised to Cregan, he would marry Aly Blackwood instead, mightn't Rhaena's marriage to Ser Corwyn Corbray be a factor? Of course that would have required her to marry young since Rhaena was about 15 when the Hour of the Wolf happened. That said, she was only 18 or so when Ser Corwyn died, so it might not be that strange. Of course, we then have the followup of, if Cregan was to marry Rhaena but could not because she had already married, why not marry Baela. One possible solution to this problem would have Baela also married already, to Alyn Velaryon. Could this possibly have been something orchestrated by Corlys? This could also possibly explain why Black Aly's marrying Cregan was one of the factors in Cregan allowing Corlys to be pardoned, if Cregan felt that Corlys had denied him his promised bride.

Or Cregan decided that Baela post-accident wasn't what he was looking for in a bride.

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I think you. But it could be that I just inferred the stuff. Promising Cregan a Targaryen girl for his son wouldn't make all that much sense if that girl wasn't even born yet. Jace couldn't give Cregan a guarantee that he or his brothers would ever have any daughters, especially since neither was married yet.

This one?

7. Can you provide any information on the "The Pact of Ice and Fire," mentioned only once in the TWOIAF (pg. 141)? Did you have any discussion about it with George? Was any additional detail about it cut from TWOIAF, as far as you know? Or was there only ever that one sentence?

For space reasons, details around the pact -- particularly certain scurrilous details from one Mushroom, involving Prince Jacaerys allegedly falling in love with and secretly marrying Lord Cregan’s bastard half-sister -- had to be cut. However, the core of it is as it says in the book: Cregan agreed to support Rhaenyra for the promise of a Targaryen bride.

Doesn't specify for who the Targaryen bride was..

I'm not familiar with this talk about Cregan's bastard sister. Could someone give the gist of it? Does this mean Mushroom's thing about Jace's dragon leaving eggs at Winterfell was a euphemism for Jace himself leaving a child there?

As for why, if Rhaena was promised to Cregan, he would marry Aly Blackwood instead, mightn't Rhaena's marriage to Ser Corwyn Corbray be a factor? Of course that would have required her to marry young since Rhaena was about 15 when the Hour of the Wolf happened. That said, she was only 18 or so when Ser Corwyn died, so it might not be that strange. Of course, we then have the followup of, if Cregan was to marry Rhaena but could not because she had already married, why not marry Baela. One possible solution to this problem would have Baela also married already, to Alyn Velaryon. Could this possibly have been something orchestrated by Corlys? This could also possibly explain why Black Aly's marrying Cregan was one of the factors in Cregan allowing Corlys to be pardoned, if Cregan felt that Corlys had denied him his promised bride.

Rhaena was send to the Vale by Jace. So if Jace had promised her hand to Lord Cregan, he would have been able to tell her and she would have known other marriages were out of the question.

I don't think we know when Baela married Alyn, but I guess it wouldn't be the strangest thing to assume it happened during Corlys' lifetime.

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Rhaenys,



yeah, I think that was the one. I'm not sure we should go with a sealed marriage pact there, as both sides in the ends made different arrangement. However, I'd say the Stark in question would have been Cregan simply because his own son and heir Rickon was way too young to be married soon (or to any Targaryen girl alive at this point besides Jaehaera - and she wasn't Jace's to give) whereas Cregan was in need of new bride, and Rhaena free to marry (if the news about Luke's death had arrived in time).



How Rhaena's marriage to Corwyn Corbray came to be we do not know yet. They may have met each other while Rhaena was in the Vale, but we don't know if they married each other during or after the Dance. Somehow my guess is only after simply because Rhaena was only 13 in 129 AC, and Ran has already told us that Jeyne Arryn sent 10,000 Valemen under the command of Leowyn and Corwyn Corbray to fight for Rhaenyra - presumably in battles we don't have any knowledge about. TPatQ doesn't mention any of the Corbrays being with Rhaenyra at KL during the riots and the subsequent escape (only the Manderlys are with her). This could mean that the Corbrays were doing stuff elsewhere. But then, it is odd that we don't know what Rhaena was doing throughout the war. Did she stay in the Vale? Why didn't Rhaenyra call her to KL along with Joffrey? Or did she do that and we just don't know anything about it?



If we go with the assumption that Cregan and Rhaena were (sort of) betrothed until the end of the Dance then Rhaena's marriage to Corwyn Corbray would have been brokered after Cregan decided to marry Black Aly instead of Rhaena. Rhaena may have chosen Corbray because she and Baela wanted to ensure that they had influence over the regents to protect Aegon III. Cregan refusing to take part in the governance of the Realm may also have been pissed off Baela/Rhaena.


On the other hand, Jace's early death also freed Baela to marry another - perhaps Corwyn and Rhaena did indeed marry each other during the Dance because Baela decided she had always wanted to marry a Stark/spend time in the North.



Alyn's marriage to Baela must have been Corlys' doing to preserve his legacy. Alyn was a young man, only a legitimized bastard, and unless the Dance didn't curb the Velaryon family tree quite a bit there were nephews and cousins of Corlys still waiting to claim Driftmark after his death. Baela seems to have been Laena's eldest daughter, and Alyn aside, she was now the next in line to Driftmark. Combining the claims ensured that Alyn would face no trouble inheriting Driftmark. And surely they thought Alyn would take Corlys' place among the regents should the Seasnake not live to see the 16th nameday of the king (which he didn't). That didn't work out, though, but Rhaena and Baela remained powerful players at court, it seems, arranging Aegon's marriage to Daenaera Velaryon.



Ran has also stated somewhere that there was a discussion amongst the regents about who would succeed Aegon III should the king die without issue (prior to the return of Prince Viserys and Larra Rogare, of course). And somehow I think that Baela and Alyn had the best shots in such a scenario. Baela's descent from Prince Aemon and Jaehaerys I through Rhaenys and Laena as well as through Daemon and Baelon was unquestioned, and Alyn supposedly was the bastard of Laenor Velaryon, who also descended from the Old King through Rhaenys. There weren't any other close kin to the Targaryens left. And by combining those two claims Baela and Alyn were clearly set up as spares should Aegon III die suddenly.


This would make Alyn an ever greater guy since he actually gave up his place in the succession when he brought Prince Viserys back to KL. It is no small wonder that he apparently remained a close confidant of the Targaryens until his death. And I'm pretty sure Baela was already dead when he began his affair with Elaena.



Thinking about that, I'd not be surprised if it turned out that Unwin Peake was a descendant of Aenys I through Aerea or Rhalla, and his father had been one of the nine lesser claimants who were dismissed at the Great Council in 101 - there must have been a reason for his ambition among the regents as well as for his enmity towards Alyn Velaryon later on. Sure, he could just have been ambitious because he was ambitious. But perhaps he felt that his daughter was a fit bride of the king because he actually had Targaryen ancestors.


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In the Pact of Ice and Fire it was agreed that a Targaryen princess would marry into House Stark. Nowhere is it stated that the princess would have married Cregan himself, nor is it specified when this marriage was supposed to take place.

Seems like a pretty ridiculous point to make in all honesty. Its not as if reading that passage you wouldnt assume its Cregan himself.

To the OP and overalll discussion, I enjoyed the analyzing of Cregans KL arrival compared to Neds; But this Pact itself is very important and I'd say easily one of the biggest things dropped in the worldbook. I mean the naming of a stark-targ marriage as Ice and Fire by itself is huge, then we also have the fact it was never properly fullfilled, as well as the rumor of the dragon laying eggs in Winterfell during the meeting.

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Seems like a pretty ridiculous point to make in all honesty. Its not as if reading that passage you wouldnt assume its Cregan himself.

To the OP and overalll discussion, I enjoyed the analyzing of Cregans KL arrival compared to Neds; But this Pact itself is very important and I'd say easily one of the biggest things dropped in the worldbook. I mean the naming of a stark-targ marriage as Ice and Fire by itself is huge, then we also have the fact it was never properly fullfilled, as well as the rumor of the dragon laying eggs in Winterfell during the meeting.

Why is it a ridiculous point? What brings more prestige to your house? Fathering children on a Targaryen princess who won't inherit your seat, or having your heir marry a Targaryen princess so the Targaryen blood will continue for generations to come into your House?
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Why is it a ridiculous point? What brings more prestige to your house? Fathering children on a Targaryen prince who won't inherit your seat, or having your heir marry a Targaryen princess so the Targaryen blood will continue for generations to come into your House?

Are you like making the point for me? And I doubt they'd ever think of it like that

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Black Aly was a badass. I just think Cregan wanted the best wife possible and she was it. She held her own and led the charge of Archers to defeat the Baratheons.






Why is it a ridiculous point? What brings more prestige to your house? Fathering children on a Targaryen prince who won't inherit your seat, or having your heir marry a Targaryen princess so the Targaryen blood will continue for generations to come into your House?





Breed out. You don't want mad incest dragon blood in your line.


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Black Aly was a badass. I just think Cregan wanted the best wife possible and she was it. She held her own and led the charge of Archers to defeat the Baratheons.

Breed out. You don't want mad incest dragon blood in your line.

Not likely, since the Westerosi regarded them as almost godlike
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They were also commonly considered insane sister-botherers. Those stories don't come out of nowhere. They had dragons, they had awe. Once they were gone they were mortal.

They still had dragons at the time we're talking about. And they were the Royal family. The idea that someone would disdain marrying into the royal family in a feudal society is just silly

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