'Lemongate' and logic.

[hallam]

According to the Lemongate theory, there is some hidden message in the Lemon tree that grew in the courtyard of the house where Danny grew up in Braavos because there are no trees in Braavos. So the backstory is all fake.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87889-there-are-no-lemon-trees-in-braavos-questioning-danys-childhood/

But! But! A quote from the books in the very first post setting out the theory...

Braavos, devoid of grass and trees
...
They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.
...
In the forest, they see all. but there are no trees here
...
"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty."

So there we have it in the text. Trees did not grow except in the courts and gardens of the sort of folk that might take in a Targarean pretender and his sister.

This was eventually realized in the thread but then the argument rattled on further and the fact that it was debunked was lost and we are back into conspiracy mode.

A complete unwind on the Danny backstory would serve no real purpose. Much more likely the reason for calling out the tree is so that Arya can pay a visit to some house in Braavos that has a lemon tree and that this fills in some more of the backplot.

[Municipal Engines]

I hate this theory so much. It's the dumbest semi-popular theory out there.

[Codename: Nymeria]

According to the Lemongate theory, there is some hidden message in the Lemon tree that grew in the courtyard of the house where Danny grew up in Braavos because there are no trees in Braavos. So the backstory is all fake.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87889-there-are-no-lemon-trees-in-braavos-questioning-danys-childhood/

But! But! A quote from the books in the very first post setting out the theory...

So there we have it in the text. Trees did not grow except in the courts and gardens of the sort of folk that might take in a Targarean pretender and his sister.

This was eventually realized in the thread but then the argument rattled on further and the fact that it was debunked was lost and we are back into conspiracy mode.

A complete unwind on the Danny backstory would serve no real purpose. Much more likely the reason for calling out the tree is so that Arya can pay a visit to some house in Braavos that has a lemon tree and that this fills in some more of the backplot.

Why must you analyze everything with your relentless logic?

[Lord Lannister]

Stop refuting "known" fact with your so called "logic!" :P The Ilemonati will not tolerate this!

[Lady Blackmont]

Lemongate is the opiate of the masses. Do not remove the veil.

[WSmith84]

Believe me, the fact that trees do grow in Braavos does not stop the Lemongaters(?).

[falcotron]

When Turanga Leela wanted to join the army in the war against the balls, she disguised herself as Lee Lemon, from "Leela Man".

Thus, the lemon tree is proof that Dany is really a man. Viserys swapped places with his sister, and he's been pulling an M. Butterfly on Daario for the past year.

[Codename: Nymeria]

When Turanga Leela wanted to join the army in the war against the balls, she disguised herself as Lee Lemon, from "Leela Man".

Thus, the lemon tree is proof that Dany is really a man. Viserys swapped places with his sister, and he's been pulling an M. Butterfly on Daario for the past year.

That dog won't hunt, monseigneur.

[falcotron]

That dog won't hunt, monseigneur.

You don't need to hunt to catch lemons, just bang into the tree hard enough and they'll fall to the ground.

Similarly, you don't need actual evidence for the Lemongate theory, just wave a bunch of words around and insist that proof has fallen out.

[ChillyPolly]

So there we have it in the text. Trees did not grow except in the courts and gardens of the sort of folk that might take in a Targarean pretender and his sister.

The lemon theories does not say that trees don't grow that far north. It says that lemons do not grow that far north. And there is plenty of evidence of this.

[A Bastard Snow]

The lemon theories does not say that trees don't grow that far north. It says that lemons do not grow that far north. And there is plenty of evidence of this.

Like GRRM admitting that he doesn't know much about agriculture?Case in point the Arbor growing grapes when the climate wouldn't allow it.Or GRRM admitting that he realized after GoT was published that Braavos was too far north so he could either teleport it 1000 miles south or just leave it.He meant for Braavos to have a Mediterranean climate iirc then realized that it was too far north for that so he uses his omnipotent god powers to grow lemon trees in Braavos.

[ChillyPolly]

Like GRRM admitting that he doesn't know much about agriculture?Case in point the Arbor growing grapes when the climate wouldn't allow it.Or GRRM admitting that he realized after GoT was published that Braavos was too far north so he could either teleport it 1000 miles south or just leave it.He meant for Braavos to have a Mediterranean climate iirc then realized that it was too far north for that so he uses his omnipotent god powers to grow lemon trees in Braavos.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are not, I think, referring to actual quotes by GRRM.

Regardless of whether GRRM knows that much about agriculture, the books say outright that lemons and/or other citrus fruits do not grow in Braavos, do not grow further south in the Vale, do not grow even further south in the Riverlands or Cracklaw Point, have to be imported to Kings Landing, and are always said to be imported from Dorne instead of from nearer points such as Pentos or the Stormlands or Tarth. The books say what they say about Westeros regardless of whether what they say is based on extensive knowledge of real world agriculture.

Yes, they also say that Dany remembers a lemon tree in Braavos. So people wonder if this apparent discrepancy is a mistake or some kind of clue.

We did not find out where Braavos was in the north until FEAST and DANCE, and only DANCE gave us the actual map location. Until FEAST at the earliest, GRRM could have placed Braavos as far south as he wanted. If a mistake was made, it was during FEAST and DANCE, not during the publication of AGOT.

The mere growing of "trees" in Braavos is not the problem. We know they grow north of the Wall.

[Lord Wraith]

As a somewhat fan of Lemongate I fully believe that there could be a lemon tree somewhere is Braavos. That isn't the point of contention, the odd thing is the continual references to Dorne and lemons. Why is this the point that all the haters miss?

Also OP your point and quote has been made many times just saying.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Nobody is arguing that trees can't grow in temperate climates. But a subtropical tree growing in a temperate climate is an intentional discrepancy. George willingly admits when he's made a mistake, as in Jeyne's hips, Renly's eyes, and the transexual horse. Funny how he's never said a tree growing where it shouldn't grow is a mistake.

And to address the next irrelevant point you'll bring up: Yes, it's technically possible that the house with the red door and the lemon tree and the grass Dany remembers running through are all inside some giant climate-controlled bio-dome in the Sealord's garden. It's not even remotely likely, but yes, it is technically possible.

[sciteacher]

Simple mistake from one publication to another?

[Codename: Nymeria]

Nobody is arguing that trees can't grow in temperate climates. But a subtropical tree growing in a temperate climate is an intentional discrepancy. George willingly admits when he's made a mistake, as in Jeyne's hips, Renly's eyes, and the transexual horse. Funny how he's never said a tree growing where it shouldn't grow is a mistake.

And to address the next irrelevant point you'll bring up: Yes, it's technically possible that the house with the red door and the lemon tree and the grass Dany remembers running through are all inside some giant climate-controlled bio-dome in the Sealord's garden. It's not even remotely likely, but yes, it is technically possible.

Wait, there's a transsexual horse? Westeros is clearly more enlightened than I was originally led to believe.

[A Bastard Snow]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are not, I think, referring to actual quotes by GRRM.

Regardless of whether GRRM knows that much about agriculture, the books say outright that lemons and/or other citrus fruits do not grow in Braavos, do not grow further south in the Vale, do not grow even further south in the Riverlands or Cracklaw Point, have to be imported to Kings Landing, and are always said to be imported from Dorne instead of from nearer points such as Pentos or the Stormlands or Tarth. The books say what they say about Westeros regardless of whether what they say is based on extensive knowledge of real world agriculture.

Yes, they also say that Dany remembers a lemon tree in Braavos. So people wonder if this apparent discrepancy is a mistake or some kind of clue.

We did not find out where Braavos was in the north until FEAST and DANCE, and only DANCE gave us the actual map location. Until FEAST at the earliest, GRRM could have placed Braavos as far south as he wanted. If a mistake was made, it was during FEAST and DANCE, not during the publication of AGOT.

The mere growing of "trees" in Braavos is not the problem. We know they grow north of the Wall.

It is never once said lemon trees can't grow in Braavos.And like I said someone asked him a long time ago agriculture related questions like how does the Arbor grow grapes when it shouldn't be able to and he admitted that he doesn't know much about agriculture.

Also I find it funny how the Starks can afford glass gardens but arguably the richest man in Braavos can't apparently.

[Megaera]

I live in England and have a kumquat tree. OK, so its in a pot but it is growing :)

Apparently citrus trees can grow in temperate climates as long as it stays above 10°c. You may not get any decent fruit, but the tree itself will grow.

[Ruby Fforde]

Just posted about this in the other lemonthread, but I'll add: overnight temperatures have been dropping down to 5 or 6 degrees here the last month or so, and our lemon tree is groaning with fruit. It does not need to be tropical at all.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

Oh for honour of lemons,there are bloody aligators in the Neck and everyone seems fine!

Ladies and gentlemen,I propose the theory that the Neck is not really in the North,but a swamp from somewhere near Volantis in a constant state of teleportation by the Cotf magic.