Rhaegar's greatest composition - The SONG of Ice and Fire

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

The story is called The SONG of Ice and Fire. I hear a lot of speculation on the Fire and Ice parts but no one seems to comment on why it's call The Song of...and not say the Chronicles of...or whatever. GRRM chose Song for a reason.

I'm not going to go into a 2000 word treatise like other's and I welcome people poking holes, so here goes:

1.) We KNOW Rhaegar is known for composing song's.

2.) We THINK Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son. (Ok some of us think that)

3.) We are TOLD Aegon is Rhaegar's son.

4.) Could Dany actually be Rhaegar's daughter?

5.) Rhaegar composed the Song of Ice and Fire = Rhaegar fathered the three heads of the dragon.

The only other character(s) who have strong ties to song's are the children.

Feel free to poke away and if there are any threads that touch on this or a reason for the Song part of the tile please link. Thanks.

[falcotron]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar was sleeping with his mother, or that someone secretly swapped his sister with an unknown daughter at birth, or ...?

[Lady Blackmont]

NOOOOOO!

Incest is magic, and it is wrong. It's wrooongggg!

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar was sleeping with his mother, or that someone secretly swapped his sister with an unknown daughter at birth, or ...?

umm...yeah. both those possibilities. I know dany is supposed to be 4 years older (i think) than rhaenys sooo...yeah...he slept with his mum.

[Visenya Stark]

umm...yeah. both those possibilities. I know dany is supposed to be 4 years older (i think) than rhaenys sooo...yeah...he slept with his mum.

Dany is younger than Rhaenys.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

yeah sorry. 4 years younger than rhaenys. and she would probably remember balerian the cat. and other stuff.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

It's called a "song" because GRRM thinks that sounds fancy. See his other stories with "song" in the title.

I presume he doesn't play an instrument and thinks there's something mystical about music.

[Lord Wraith]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar was sleeping with his mother, or that someone secretly swapped his sister with an unknown daughter at birth, or ...?

I don't think that is what he meant. Rhaegar came from the line of Aerys and Rhaelle so anyone he fathered would come from that line. Or I hope not at least...

[Cladinator]

The Song is not something that Rhaegar composed. There is some textual evidence for this but the source eludes me (I think it was TWoIaF).

A wet nurse or handmaid is in the chamber where Rhaegar is looking over his son Aegon. The woman asked if Rhaegar was going to write a song for or about him.

Rhaegar's response was something along the lines of, "No, he already has a song (this is a paraphrase since I don't have the material in front of me)."

He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.

[Visenya Stark]

The Song is not something that Rhaegar composed. There is some textual evidence for this but the source eludes me (I think it was TWoIaF).

A wet nurse or handmaid is in the chamber where Rhaegar is looking over his son Aegon. The woman asked if Rhaegar was going to write a song for or about him.

Rhaegar's response was something along the lines of, "No, he already has a song (this is a paraphrase since I don't have the material in front of me)."

I'm pretty sure that was Rhaegar's wife, Elia.

[Zizoz]

I honestly think the title is a clue that the series will have a happier ending than many suspect. (Maybe not quite "happy" -- there have been too many deaths already.) We get told over and over again that "life is not a song", and yet, if the title is to be believed, the characters' lives are a song.

[Cladinator]

I'm pretty sure that was Rhaegar's wife, Elia.

I understand that's what the wiki says. But I swear that I just read it recently that it was someone else (not that it's even an important detail).

Oh well. I must be wrong. I was furiously flipping through TWoIaF trying to find it but I cannot.

The point is, that the Song was not composed by Rhaegar.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

The Song is not something that Rhaegar composed. There is some textual evidence for this but the source eludes me (I think it was TWoIaF).

A wet nurse or handmaid is in the chamber where Rhaegar is looking over his son Aegon. The woman asked if Rhaegar was going to write a song for or about him.

Rhaegar's response was something along the lines of, "No, he already has a song (this is a paraphrase since I don't have the material in front of me)."

Yeah I know this. It was actually part of what got me thinking about it. I could be wrong but does anyone but Rhaegar (or anyone who wouldn't have heard that phrase from Rhaegar) refer to a Song of Ice and Fire? That could be the way he thinks of the prophecy because he is a composer and singer.

IDK...just think that line enforces the theory.

[Visenya Stark]

I understand that's what the wiki says. But I swear that I just read it recently that it was someone else (not that it's even an important detail).

Oh well. I must be wrong. I was furiously flipping through TWoIaF trying to find it but I cannot.

The point is, that the Song was not composed by Rhaegar.

From A Clash of Kings:

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

Rhaegar has no reason to discuss the naming of his son with a handmaiden.

As for your second point, I agree, the song was there before Rhaegar. It might even be in one of the scrolls Rhaegar read that made him decide to be a warrior (since he believed he was the Prince that was Promised).

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Ooh, one more thing: the children of the forest are "those who sing the songs of earth", and if you watch the newest Preston Jacobs video there's an interesting theory that the children are evil and are pulling a lot of strings. Perhaps the song of ice and fire is the malevolent plot to wipe out the human race? via Dragons and Others and fratricide.

That's actually not as crazy as it sounds: recall the Robert Frost poem that Garge says is an inspiration:

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

That's about the end of the world, baby!

[Cladinator]

From A Clash of Kings:

Rhaegar has no reason to discuss the naming of his son with a handmaiden.

As for your second point, I agree, the song was there before Rhaegar. It might even be in one of the scrolls Rhaegar read that made him decide to be a warrior (since he believed he was the Prince that was Promised).

You're right. It makes no sense for it not to be Elia. I'm not sure where I got that it was someone else.

Thanks for the correction.

[Halkyon]

Filling some holes potentially:

- If Dany is Rhaegar's daugther, GRRM has hidden some key to resolve this secret. To enfuel some speculation, could Rhaenys via Balerion indirectly know about it? Night King's Queen put up this Balerion-Theory

- Speculation 2, even more off-topic: We know that magic takes "life-power" from the ones using it. Aegon's mother Elia (Fire) is very weak after figuratively birthing two dragons, Lyanna (Ice) supposedly dies after birthing another dragon. Is there magic involved in birthing a Targaryen and is this a reason for incest/resistance of Targaryen mothers?

- And again, the scene in the House of the Undying:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

It seems to me, the song already exists but is only meant to repeat himself in Aegon & Co.

[Visenya Stark]

<snip>

- Speculation 2, even more off-topic: We know that magic takes "life-power" from the ones using it. Aegon's mother Elia (Fire) is very weak after figuratively birthing two dragons, Lyanna (Ice) supposedly dies after birthing another dragon. Is there magic involved in birthing a Targaryen and is this a reason for incest/resistance of Targaryen mothers?

<snip>

I don't think there's any kind of special magic involved in birthing Targaryens. There have been plenty of non-Targaryen women that have given birth without becoming really weak or dying. We know Elia was always frail.

There is however a pattern with Dany, Jon and Tyrion: all three of their mothers died in childbirth. This could be the magic for the three heads of the dragon to be born. It ties into the blood magic concept of "only death may pay for life". Rhaegar was wrong about Aegon. Aegon is not one of the three heads (I also doubt the boy claiming to be Aegon is who he claims to be; the real Aegon died).

[sweetsunray]

yeah sorry. 4 years younger than rhaenys. and she would probably remember balerian the cat. and other stuff.

Dany was born 9 months AFTER the war at Dragonstone during a storm. She's never even been to KL or the Red Keep. So, nope she doesn't know Balerion the cat. And Rhaegar was dead before she was conceived.

[sweetsunray]

Ooh, one more thing: the children of the forest are "those who sing the songs of earth", and if you watch the newest Preston Jacobs video there's an interesting theory that the children are evil and are pulling a lot of strings. Perhaps the song of ice and fire is the malevolent plot to wipe out the human race? via Dragons and Others and fratricide.

That's actually not as crazy as it sounds: recall the Robert Frost poem that Garge says is an inspiration:

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

That's about the end of the world, baby!

Ragnarok is about the destruction of the world and society by both Ice and Fire. But out of the steam created by the meeting of Ice and Fire a new world rises and where survivors and new people can live and start the whole cycle again. And the oral tradition of mythologies and epics are usually sung poetry. Eventually, I think the title "Song of Ice and Fire" is what later generations who survive tell their children. But instead of seeing it as a poem told and sung to children, we read it as intricate, fleshed out lives.