Number of Men in the Iron Fleet?

[Municipal Engines]

So I'm wondering about the number of sailors/soldiers in the Iron Fleet. Apparently there were about 8 longships all with 200-250 (working out to about 25-31 men per boat) under Theon's command during his harrying of the Stony Shore. His sister had around 1000 men according to Theon (might be just an exagerrated estimation during his boasting) and 30 longships, so there'd be around 33 men per boat. IRL, the smallest longship used in warfare could hold 41 people, while the larger ships carried 70-80 men.

The Iron Fleet had 100 ships, though I don't know whether this was made up entirely of war galleys or a mixture of galleys and large longships. Apparently he took nine-tenths of the Fleet away from Moat Cailin when he heard of the death of his brother, though that could be just ships and not personell. Whatever the situation, the remaining Ironmen at Moat Cailin were whittled down to 67 by the time Theon showed up.

With this information, what do you guess is the manpower of the Iron Fleet?

[Monoman32]

I think they are pretty close in size to War Galleys which means they could probably carry around 100 men per ship or so maybe a little less. So at full strength the Iron Fleet could be around 10,000 men strong or so. The Iron Fleet that Victarion takes to Meeren leaves at 93 strong but they hit a major storm and lose roughly half of the fleet, but as they make their way to Meeren they capture some other ships to get them to 61 ships strong, but a lot of the captured ships are merchant ships not meant for combat. Victarion lands at Meeren with probably 4500 men or so.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Iron Fleet consists entirely of wargalleys capable of matching the Royal Fleet in battle. The Royal Fleet was composed of ships with 100, 200 and 300 oars, with the flagship sporting 400.

To match that, the Iron Fleet has to have at least 10,000 oars. So, 15,000-20,000 crew.

[Nihlus]

100 early medieval war galleys with around 100 oars per ship ('cause they're comparable to the ships of the royal fleet), making the crews at least 10,000. Add sailors, officers, archers, and more dedicated assault troops, and you're looking at about 13,000 for the whole fleet. MAYBE 15,000. Most of these men would be fully equipped soldiers, with hauberk and battleaxes and such, granting them a huge advantage in boarding actions.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10000 men in the Iron Fleet. 15000 men in the rest of the Ironborn navy.

[Nihlus]

10000 men in the Iron Fleet. 15000 men in the rest of the Ironborn navy.

What's your logic here? Assuming their war galleys are smaller than everyone else's, like those 80-oar Myrish war galleys that Stannis hired?

[Lady Blackmont]

The Ironborn are supposed to have 1,000+ ships.

I am not buying that they have more than 35-40K sailors.

[Nihlus]

The Ironborn are supposed to have 1,000+ ships.I am not buying that they have more than 35-40K sailors.

1,000+ ships was seen as an exaggeration while ~500 was seen as plausible.

[Nyrhex]

There are, roughly speaking, 3 main estimations of the number of men in the Iron Fleet.

First is the estimation that the ships being equal to the Royal Navy mean that they are manned the same as the common Royal Navy war galley. 100 oars as the average, with Victarion and Balon's ships being larger, say 200 or 300. This gives the Iron Fleet a nice, round figure of ~10,000 men.

Second is the estimation that goes on the base assumption that these ships are not longships, but war galleys, and as such carry additional crew to work the sails/scorpions, etc, and marines, enlarging the number of men by a few more thousands (with references to soldier-to-oarsmen ratio from the Battle of Lepanto being quite common for some reason - near 30,000 soldiers versus 40,000-50,000 oarsmen on each side), jumping the number of men at Victarion's command at full strength to 15,000-20,000 men.

I am of the third group, the minimalist if you wish, that gives Victarion ~7,000-8,000 men total at full Iron Fleet Stength.

My reasoning is as follows:

1, The ships of the Iron Fleet are not war galleys, they are war longships. They are refered to as longships, and were compared by GRRM to Viking Longships.

2. The largest Viking longship is 121ft long. Theon's Sea Bitch was 100ft long, had the distinctive decorative ram that the ships of the Iron Fleet are said to have, being the main thing that sets them apart from common ones aside from the size.

3. The Ironborn do not ram as a main battle tactic. Only one ships is shown to have rammed another ship, one of Vic's ships rams a mainland longship (not a war galley)... and is then pulled under with it, since they are not mean for ramming and the two got caught up. The Iron Born act in a more logical manner for longships, and mean to smash the enemy oars to isolate targets, outmaneuver the enemy, and board it. With a crew of ~70-80, all fighters on top of being the oarsmen, they have a numerical advantage over the war galleys of the mainland. Going off of the Byzantine/Venetian Dromon, again according to GRRM's own words, the war galleys of the mainland are based on the smallest Dromon, with a crew of 100 oarsmen, and roughly another ~20 crew and marines. The use of the ram also point to the earlier version of the Dromon. To overpower that with 70-80 fighters should not be difficult. Once one has managed to board the enemy...

4. Fair Isle. Stannis' main achievement was in denying the Ironborn room to maneuver, thus he was able to ram the enemy from both front and rear, while the Ironborn did not have a chance to make thier numbers count.

5. With each region able to produce ~20,000 fighters, according to GRRM, the Ironborn would fit this number by what we were shown. Theon eyeballs 400 captains in his father's hall. Take out the 100 ships of the Iron Fleet and ~7-8k troops, you are left with ~300 ships of average size. Say the ships of the Ironborn are comparable to the Skeid type of Longships with 100-120ft length and 70-80 men crew, the 300 other raiding longships would be closer to the Snekkja type, with ~40 men per ship. 300x40=12,000 men. Add those number up, say another few thousand for garrisons of the islands, and considering that the Ironborn have already been decimated just a short 9 years ago, and there you have it, more than enough for the region. More than it logically should have, all considered.

[Fire Eater]

The Iron Fleet consists entirely of wargalleys capable of matching the Royal Fleet in battle. The Royal Fleet was composed of ships with 100, 200 and 300 oars, with the flagship sporting 400.

To match that, the Iron Fleet has to have at least 10,000 oars. So, 15,000-20,000 crew.

10-15K is closer to the mark as Ran states.

[Free Northman Reborn]

What's your logic here? Assuming their war galleys are smaller than everyone else's, like those 80-oar Myrish war galleys that Stannis hired?

100 ships in the Iron Fleet, each with 100 men on board. And 400-500 smaller longships averaging about 30 men each.

[Nihlus]

100 ships in the Iron Fleet, each with 100 men on board. And 400-500 smaller longships averaging about 30 men each.

Where does 100 men per ship come from? 100 Iron Fleet ships are said to be on par with 100 war galleys of the Royal Fleet, which should average at least ~130 men per ship.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Where does 100 men per ship come from? 100 Iron Fleet ships are said to be on par with 100 war galleys of the Royal Fleet, which should average at least ~130 men per ship.

Ok, I'm happy with that. 100 x 130 = 13000. Plus 400 ships x 30 = another 12000. Giving a total of 25000.

[Nyrhex]

Where does 100 men per ship come from? 100 Iron Fleet ships are said to be on par with 100 war galleys of the Royal Fleet, which should average at least ~130 men per ship.

That is not what is said of them. It is said that they are larger than the common longship, have deep hulls (for a longship, they are still shallow enough to act as longships in shallow water from what we see), "savage rams" (which seems to be decorative at most), and are fit to meet the king's own fleets. Not the Royal Navy, but mainland war ships in general.

The longships of the Iron Fleet do not have more crew than the oarsmen, as the oarsmen are the fighters. This assumption, that in order to match the Royal Navy the Ironborn need to have as many oarsmen, is false. They are different ships, with different doctrine and layout.

A longship with 70-80 fighters clad in mail and plate and wielding steel weapons can board and defeat a war galley with 120-130 men, if only a dozen of them are soldiers and the rest have little to no arms and armour. The galley in turn has a functional ram and can defeat the longship if the battlefield can deny the Ironborn room to move. That does not make the Iron Fleet on par with a fleet of similar size, but made up entirely from war galleys. It means they can fight other large ships. The king's fleets are the royal one and the Redwyne fleet, and Victarion is not fool enough to fight 300 war galleys with the Iron Fleet. When comparing ships, Aurane too compares ships, but he compares the ships of the Iron Fleet to lesser war galleys, and notes that the 10 war galleys currently being constructed are far larger. 10 Ships against a 100, even if larger than average, is no less foolish than 100 against 300, or 54 against 300-500. Basically, the 100 longships of the Iron Fleet can only hope to stand a chance against the 100 galleys of the Royal Navy if they have room to maneuver, and the enemy commander is an idiot.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Where does 100 men per ship come from? 100 Iron Fleet ships are said to be on par with 100 war galleys of the Royal Fleet, which should average at least ~130 men per ship.

I know when talking about the Lannister fleet GRRM ahs this to say on the matter:

For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen -- cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck.

Would this not also be true for the Royal navy?

[Nihlus]

I know when talking about the Lannister fleet GRRM ahs this to say on the matter:

For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen -- cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck.

Would this not also be true for the Royal navy?

The Iron Fleet ships are not regular longships. They're over three times larger than the standard longships that make up the vast majority of the Iron Islands' naval force, and equal to the lesser war galleys of the Royal Fleet. That was stated in the text, by Aurane Waters. Furthermore:

Royal warships: 100

Iron Fleet warships; 100

Redwyne warships: 200

These forces are all considered comparable.

However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros.

If the Iron Fleet were drastically inferior on a ship to ship basis to "regular" war galleys, not only would the above not make sense (because they wouldn't be comparable to an equally sized force, more like the smaller Manderly and Lannister fleets), but Aurane's comment wouldn't fit (the smallest royal war galleys we've seen dip 100 oars- the larger ones range from 200 to 400).

That is not what is said of them. It is said that they are larger than the common longship, have deep hulls (for a longship, they are still shallow enough to act as longships in shallow water from what we see), "savage rams" (which seems to be decorative at most), and are fit to meet the king's own fleets. Not the Royal Navy, but mainland war ships in general.

The longships of the Iron Fleet do not have more crew than the oarsmen, as the oarsmen are the fighters. This assumption, that in order to match the Royal Navy the Ironborn need to have as many oarsmen, is false. They are different ships, with different doctrine and layout.

A longship with 70-80 fighters clad in mail and plate and wielding steel weapons can board and defeat a war galley with 120-130 men, if only a dozen of them are soldiers and the rest have little to no arms and armour. The galley in turn has a functional ram and can defeat the longship if the battlefield can deny the Ironborn room to move. That does not make the Iron Fleet on par with a fleet of similar size, but made up entirely from war galleys. It means they can fight other large ships. The king's fleets are the royal one and the Redwyne fleet, and Victarion is not fool enough to fight 300 war galleys with the Iron Fleet. When comparing ships, Aurane too compares ships, but he compares the ships of the Iron Fleet to lesser war galleys, and notes that the 10 war galleys currently being constructed are far larger. 10 Ships against a 100, even if larger than average, is no less foolish than 100 against 300, or 54 against 300-500. Basically, the 100 longships of the Iron Fleet can only hope to stand a chance against the 100 galleys of the Royal Navy if they have room to maneuver, and the enemy commander is an idiot.

It is directly said that:

A. The Iron Fleet is comparable to the Royal Fleet, which is 100 war galleys.

B. The Iron Fleet's average ships are comparable to the royal fleet's "lesser war galleys".

As you said, Aurane said that the Ironborn ships were comparable to the "lesser" war galleys in "speed and strength", on top of being better crewed. The thing is, though, the 10 new galleys were enormous, and the other, lesser ships we've seen all seem to dip 100 oars. We don't see any 50-oar royal navy ships, and have no real reason to assume that "they're as strong as our war galleys" means "they're as strong as these special tiny war galleys that have been off-screen the whole time that we've never referenced before".

[Nyrhex]

It is directly said that:

A. The Iron Fleet is comparable to the Royal Fleet, which is 100 war galleys.

B. The Iron Fleet's average ships are comparable to the royal fleet's "lesser war galleys".

As you said, Aurane said that the Ironborn ships were comparable to the "lesser" war galleys in "speed and strength", on top of being better crewed. The thing is, though, the 10 new galleys were enormous, and the other, lesser ships we've seen all seem to dip 100 oars. We don't see any 50-oar royal navy ships, and have no real reason to assume that "they're as strong as our war galleys" means "they're as strong as these special tiny war galleys that have been off-screen the whole time that we've never referenced before".

It is said that the Greyjoy Fleet is comparable to the Royal or Redwyne navies. The Greyjoy fleet comprises the 100 war longships of the Iron Fleet, and an additional 300 raiding longships.

"Lesser war gallleys" is refering to war galleys weaker than the standard 100 oar galleys, otherwise it would be said "standard". Victarion does not refer to the larger dromons being built on the other side of the continent when he says that his ships are not as large as the war galleys of the mainland. He means the standard 100 oar war galleys that were common before those, and until now he does not even know of the larger dromons. The Seaswift and Bold Wind are specifically mentioned to be smaller than usual, war galleys of the Royal Navy that can outrun any of the war galleys that Stannis has, are very likely to be of these "lesser war galleys"'.

The Royal Navy has 100 ships, Redwyne has 200 and another 1,000 civilian ships. The two are not identical, even if one counts the ~140 civilian, sellsail and pirate ships that Stannis gathers for months, but are comparable in that they are two of the three main naval powers in Westeros. Redwyne likely has a bunch of other lesser war galleys similar to the Myrish or Lyssene sellsails and pirate ships that we see on the Blackwater, as keeping 200 war galleys of 100 oars plus the larger ones of 200 and 300 would make the comparison to the king and to the Greyjoys loughable.

[Mithras]

The ships of the Iron Fleet are thrice the size of regular longships and they are built specifically to ram other war ships.

[Nyrhex]

The ships of the Iron Fleet are thrice the size of regular longships and they are built specifically to ram other war ships.

They are said to have "savage rams". Since they are above water on the prow (instead of below the water level in order to hit another ship and causing water to enter it), since we see the Ironborn mainly board enemy ships, and since the only time we hear of one of those longships ramming another is when said ship is pulled under water with it's target, I take that to mean that they are mainly decorative. Theon's is like an arrow, Balon's is like a Kraken, Aeron's was meant to be a pissing phallus.

I take "savage rams" to be more of Martin's take on Viking "dragon ships" and thier ornate prows, a figurehead, rather than an actual ram.

[Mithras]

They are said to have "savage rams". Since they are above water on the prow (instead of below the water level in order to hit another ship and causing water to enter it), since we see the Ironborn mainly board enemy ships, and since the only time we hear of one of those longships ramming another is when said ship is pulled under water with it's target, I take that to mean that they are mainly decorative. Theon's is like an arrow, Balon's is like a Kraken, Aeron's was meant to be a pissing phallus.

I take "savage rams" to be more of Martin's take on Viking "dragon ships" and thier ornate prows, a figurehead, rather than an actual ram.

The drums were pounding out a battle beat as the Iron Victory swept forward, her ram cutting through the choppy green waters.

It looks like the Iron Victory, which is the flagship of the Iron Fleet, hence a ship at least thrice the size of regular longships, has a traditional ram below the water level.

The smaller ship ahead was turning, oars slapping at the sea. Roses streamed upon her banners; fore and aft a white rose upon a red escutcheon, atop her mast a golden one on a field as green as grass. The Iron Victory raked her side so hard that half the boarding party lost their feet. Oars snapped and splintered, sweet music to the captain’s ears.

And this is some hard ramming.

The Iron Victory lingered for hours off the mouth of the Mander. As the greater part of the Iron Fleet got under way for Oakenshield, Victarion kept Grief, Lord Dagon, Iron Wind, and Maiden’s Bane about him as a rear guard. They pulled survivors from the sea, and watched Hardhand sink slowly, dragged under by the wreck that she had rammed. By the time she vanished beneath the waters Victarion had the count he’d asked for. He had lost six ships, and captured eight-and-thirty. “It will serve,” he told Nute. “To the oars. We return to Lord Hewett’s Town.”

Another example of ramming by a ship of the Iron Fleet.

The ironmen had penetrated even to the sheltered waters of Whispering Sound. Come morning, as the Cinnamon Wind continued on toward Oldtown, she began to bump up against corpses drifting down to the sea. Some of the bodies carried complements of crows, who rose into the air complaining noisily when the swan ship disturbed their grotesquely swollen rafts. Scorched fields and burned villages appeared on the banks, and the shallows and sandbars were strewn with shattered ships. Merchanters and fishing boats were the most common, but they saw abandoned longships too, and the wreckage of two big dromonds. One had been burned down to the waterline, whilst the other had a gaping splintered hole in her side where her hull had been rammed.

And this dromond of the Reachmen was rammed by Euron's ironborn somehow. The question is, how did Euron's reavers ram a dromond without the ships of the Iron Fleet?