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Theon and Asha


Dejection

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I find Theon a fascinating character and his relationship with his sister is pretty complicated. People often paint Theon as the dickhead in this case and give Asha a free pass as a morally 'secure' character. I feel this is wrong. She used her gender to humiliate him when he went to Pyke and claimed she did so to 'see what kind of man he is'. I find this coming from Mrs. I'm so Ironborn and proud of my culture where men capture women to turn into 'salt wives', to be rather BS. I dont think she bears any love for him as I've often seen argued from the topics I watched around the internet; when trying to convince him to leave Winterfell she is just doing it for his strategic importance as a member of House Greyjoy; just as Tywin went to war because of Tyrion's abduction. I.e not out of love or care at all. And when in Winterfell she tells him to leave with her because he is 'blood of her blood' which is worded out to mean 'Yeah my mom is the one that gives a crap about you' and finally leaves him with some mocking remark about his silly crown. Not a fine way to say goodbye to your soon to die brother is it?



How do you think he will react to her now in Stannis camp? I think he resents her somewhat and having Theon cooperate with whatever plans she has for the Iron Islands might be a challenge for Asha.


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I do think Asha cares about Theon, but she may care about sitting on the seastone chair more. What she did to him in the beginning of clash was horrible, especially the public humiliation, people underestimate how much that hurts when it hasn't happened to them. But I think she shows that she does care about him when they see eachother again later. I think the ironborn are raised to be hard and showing feelings is generally seen as a weakness that's probably why she was rather cold to him. But she did want to help him when she told him to leave Winterfell, it's just that Theon was so attached to it, not to mention that he wasn't even thinking about what she said but completely focussed on "she wants my throne at all cost, that's why she's doing this, she wants to put me down again like she did before"


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She says behead him

First she tried to pay his ransom. She only suggested beheading as a way to ensure her brother didn't die by painful burning.

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I find this coming from Mrs. I'm so Ironborn and proud of my culture where men capture women to turn into 'salt wives', to be rather BS.

If you read the later chapters, it becomes pretty obvious that Balon isn't exactly representative of mainstream Ironborn culture, but a hardline radical trying to return to a supposed golden age that died out 300 years ago, if it even existed the way he imagines back then. And then, at the Kingsmoot, Asha clearly doesn't subscribe to the same views; she believes the best way forward for her people is to offer peace for land, settle the fringes of the North, and trade with them instead of losing sons for pinecones.

So, the culture she's proud of is not the culture Balon talks about, any more than the America that Romney or Obama repeatedly claimed to be proud of is the "white, Christian, god-fearing" culture that David Duke talks about.

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First she tried to pay his ransom. She only suggested beheading as a way to ensure her brother didn't die by painful burning.

Both are much better than watching your brother burn.

Their treatment of women essentially is the same in any version of it really. Which means her 'I was seeing what kind of man you are' is still BS.

Well she did get the measure of him and he showed her.

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Well she did get the measure of him and he showed her.


Again, it's really not fair for her to approve of Ironborn culture the way she does and criticize him for being a womanizer. Flirting when put into the context of things was not really that bad a sin.



Both are much better than watching your brother burn.


I doubt she cares really. When the Boltons send her a letter with Theons finger in it she just brushes it aside and he never features in her thoughts for more than a sentence.


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When she judged him and found him wanting... I don't think it was just the womanising habits he had got into that she objected to... it was a dual factor:
He didn't recognise her.
He showed no real awareness of his surroundings.

So many things happened on the way to Pyke that hinted strongly at who she was but he didn't really connect the dots for any of it. THAT, I believe is what she was judging him on. His priorities and judgement were all screwed up. That was what he was lacking.

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He may be her brother, but he is also a rival, and one she hasn't seen for a long time, doesn't have a strong connection to, and who is looked down upon by the whole family for being "soft". She can only get brownie points by being super iron hard, so she can't afford to be emphatic and supportive.


The whole ride to Pyke thing was unspeakably tasteless and gross, though. Yuk. But what would you expect from people whose favorite drinking game involves finding out who will chop off most of his fingers with an axe? They don't do subtle, genteel entertainment.


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When she judged him and found him wanting... I don't think it was just the womanising habits he had got into that she objected to... it was a dual factor:

He didn't recognise her.

He showed no real awareness of his surroundings.

So many things happened on the way to Pyke that hinted strongly at who she was but he didn't really connect the dots for any of it. THAT, I believe is what she was judging him on. His priorities and judgement were all screwed up. That was what he was lacking.

He's an arrogant prick who thinks he's going to become a prince of a people he knows nothing about. We don't need to search for specific ways he failed to measure up.

:agree:

I think it had more to do with her trying to see if he seemed Ironborn. Ironborn take Saltwives, sure but they don't act like Theon. Theon acts like a Northerner, because he has lived in the North his whole life. Maybe he doesn't quite fit in there *either,* but she can tell from the way he tries to seduce her that he isn't one of them anymore.

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I think that's just more weak justification. Firstly Theon doesn't act like a Northerner and Balon's view of Northerners is stupid as hell; how the heck are the icy men of the North 'green landers'? Asha's okay with being all chummy with crewmen who probably rape women like Dothraki do but Theon flirting is a big issue. Poor moral justification for her actions really.


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I think that's just more weak justification. Firstly Theon doesn't act like a Northerner and Balon's view of Northerners is stupid as hell; how the heck are the icy men of the North 'green landers'? Asha's okay with being all chummy with crewmen who probably rape women like Dothraki do but Theon flirting is a big issue. Poor moral justification for her actions really.

I think you missed the point.

It was his arrogance, his casual willingness to betray his Fathers ship builder, his ignorance and his general sense of entitlement to name but a few things.

There is no indication she has a problem with his flirting.

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I think you missed the point.

It was his arrogance, his casual willingness to betray his Fathers ship builder, his ignorance and his general sense of entitlement to name but a few things.

There is no indication she has a problem with his flirting.

'I wanted to see what kind of man you are' thats some indication. But what do you mean betray his father's ship builder?

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Asha is a total bitch. She sold her little brother down the river when he returned home in ACOK and then basically tried to steal his proposal (an alliance with the North) in AFFC. And she had the gall to belittle Theon for taking the capital of the North.


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How? Explain how you got "I had a problem with your flirting" from that?

She pretended to be the shipbuilders pregnant wife.

Kind of stuck in my mind lol screw that. Asha doesn't support Theon's very sensible proposition of an alliance with the North to Balon only to pick it up during the kingsmoot.... Why? I believe her to be an intelligent person and she admits to herself later she knew from the get go that Balon's plan was bad. And yet she didn't say crap before because Theon was suggesting it.

It really surprises me how many 'shes such a good big sister' comments I see from her fans around the internet; she's anything but.

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