R+L=J v. 148

[wolfmaid7]

Just seeing the bold, so quick response.

Of course they do. I've seen posters who claim that they are some percentage (usually a high one--say between 80% and 90%) sure that RLJ is false. When pressed as to what they believe to be the answer to X+Y = J, they then spell out a theory that involves mental gymnastics in ignoring or working around the established timeline, character themes and motifs, and symbols. When these flaws are pointed out with textual canon evidence or SSMs, the response is usually "well we can't know for sure yet, so what's the harm in exploring other possibilities?" When the evidence FOR RLJ is pointed out, it is dismissed with "show me where there is definitive proof that RLJ had sex/were at the TOJ together/ or (perhaps most egregious of all) prove that Lyanna was ever pregnant" as if lack of definitive proof is the same as no proof whatsoever.

Is there harm in exploration? No (just tedious after awhile) but to claim that there aren't antiRLJ blinders is as wrong as saying there aren't proRLJ blinders.

While character themes,motifs and symbols are subjective........I'm sorry but the timeline has not been established.

[BearQueen87]

While character themes,motifs and symbols are subjective........I'm sorry but the timeline has not been established.

It has been pretty closely established. At least close enough that we can talk about without having to tie ourselves into knots, like suggesting that Brandon was alive when Lyanna would have conceived Jon. But I'll leave that to Rhaenys, who manages to spit this stuff out faster than I do.

[Prince of Ghost]

Robert named the Lady Lyanna. Or how was this hint meant? Lyanna was not a princess being escorted to Dorne. Laenor Velaryon did not become a Prince upon his marriage to Princess Rhaenyra, nor did Laena become a princess upon her marriage to Prince Daemon. So perhaps the Princess going to Dorne is not such a good parallel, especially because Myrcella went to her betrothed, whereas Lyanna wouldn't have been going to her betrothed (Robert lived in the Stormlands, and was in the Vale at the start of the war, after all).

Or did I misunderstand the point of the Lady Lyanna?

In addition, Lyanna had gone missing some time before that.. Though we don't know exactly (or roughly) when.

Lyanna went missing. We know where Brandon was.. In between Winterfell and Riverrun, on his way to Riverrun for his wedding. We know where Lyanna was.. ten leagues from Harrenhal. They were not close to each other, despite the fact that they might have been going to the same location.

After the Battle of the Bells :) Catelyn clearly remembers that Jon Arryn married Lysa after losing his last heir, who died at the Battle of the Bells. As Catelyn and Lysa married in the same ceremony, Cat married Ned after the Battle of the Bells as well ;)

A quick draw-up

Lyanna disappeared, Brandon learned the news, Brandon travelled to KL, Rickard was summoned and travelled to KL, Rickard arrived in KL, and both Rickard and Brandon were executed an unknown amount of time later. After that, Aerys send summons to the Vale, and the war officially began. That war lasted "close to a year'', and ended at the Sack. After the Sack, Ned would travel to SE, lift the siege, which also lasted 'close to a year', and travelled to ToJ, where Lyanna was found dying.

The Siege of SE began later than the war, naturally. When the war began, Robert was in the Vale, where he fought in Gulltown. After these battles were won, he travelled to SE, where he called his banners, marched to Summerhal, fought the three battles in a day, marched back to SE, remained there for an unknown amount of time, marched to Ashford, and was defeated. From Ashford, the Tyrell army would have travelled to SE (not before). Only then could the Siege of SE begin.

During the Sack, Ned arrived in KL. We know Robert arrived later, but not too much later.. I'd guess it was only a matter of days, but that is a guess on my part. The bodies of Rhaenys, Elia and "Aegon" were still bloody from their murders - no one had taken the time to wash the bodies or anything - and Ned was so angry about his reaction to these deaths that he rode out in anger.. the next day, IIRC. The situation at SE war dire, and Lords Tyrell and Redwyne had not yet given up their siege, all pointing towards the fact that not that much time had passed between the Sack and the lifting of the siege..

So the Siege was lifted reasonably soon after the Sack, yet it had begun quite a a few months into the war. Yet both lasted 'close to a year'.. Showing that whatever is meant by 'close to a year', the actual war lasted longer than the Siege.

Indeed. 'close to a year' is either slightly less or slightly more than a year.

Speaking of Harrenhal... Lyanna came face-to-face with Rhaegar ten leagues from the castle, but we don't know if she was staying there, right? Perhaps she was on her way to Riverrun as well, having just passed Harrenhal.

Will there be a link or a message or something when each essay is posted?

Wolfmaid7 may know, I am honestly not sure.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, it is being concealed, but he could have answered, "keep reading". I do not get how you read this that the birth date is unimportant (by which I'm not sayint that it is necessarily very important) and that GRRM hasn't done the specifics when he was still able to provide a more specific time frame than the person who asked the question. If he never thought about any correlation of Jon's birth to major events, or if there was no major event around, he wouldn't have been able to do so.

It isn't because no matter how hard you guys try or anyone tries it can't be peg down.

Do i believe he's given hints in broadstrokes absolutely, as i like to say,have said and have observed comets aren't the only thing that herald or accompany births in this story.And i believe GRRM does have a system for knowing the ball park that transcends numeric.So yes i believe there is correlation to births,but no i don't think battle events are the benchmarks or even when other people are born.

[Bael's Bastard]

It's the books which tie Dany's conception to around the time of her mother and brother's flight to Dragonstone, after receiving word of the result of the Battle of the Trident. And it is GRRM who in an SSM placed Jon's birth closer to 8-9 months than to a year before Dany's, likely within weeks of the Battle of the Trident. Yes I know all the blahblahblah taking issue with some or all of that, but that is what we are working with no matter how some don't like that. I don't buy the A+J=T theory, but I can at least respect that they take it seriously enough to lay out the case they believe, and are working on their case for it in consecutive threads about it, not just going into threads about a well established theory and offering no support for theories in its place.

[wolfmaid7]

It has been pretty closely established. At least close enough that we can talk about without having to tie ourselves into knots, like suggesting that Brandon was alive when Lyanna would have conceived Jon. But I'll leave that to Rhaenys, who manages to spit this stuff out faster than I do.

i know some of the estimations can get really out there but i make it a habit not to shoot anyone down unless i know where they are going and can follow their logic.But for me i see a pattern with the births and if externally things don't match when they were suppose to have been born then i question it.

Will there be a link or a message or something when each essay is posted?

Usually, i would do updates on "The Heretics Guide to Heresy." its pinned at the top in the Dance section.

[LmL]

"Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet Rhegar + Lyanna = Jon.Imagine what you'll know tomorrow---- Agent K."

And maybe your essay will be the one to change my mind! I am still open-minded on this, despite all of my arguments - basically, all I am trying to say is that there is a high bar to clear, not that it can't be cleared. I don't think it is impossible that George is misleading us with RLJ, but I don't believe he would do so without giving us the clues to point to the right answer. I also think it's possible, not likely, but possible, that he has laid these clues and everyone but a very select few has missed them. I do keep that possibility in the back of my mind. I WILL be reading the Heresy essays and giving them a chance to show that they have picked up on things everyone is missing. In particular, I'd really like to see someone put together the case for Arthur + Lyanna, as that's the one which I can almost see if I squint my eyes hard enough (symbolism-wise, that is).

I'll still continue to shoot down what I see as weak arguments, as everyone does, but I just wanted to let you know I always give ideas a chance, even if they seem far fetched. I am aware that just because something sounds strange, that doesn't mean it's wrong. :)

Wolfmaid, in particular, you know that I absolutely love your Those Who Sing essay, have linked to it in several of my essays, and that I will always have a high level of respect for you, no matter how many cracked things you say about RLJ. Your fourth option? Really? Come on now. ;)

[LmL]

As i said and have been saying,wait for the project.Then you have all the oppurtunity to dissect ,question etc.

It means given GRRMs tone its not really important.I don't think he's done the specifics to be honest.But i agree he has left enough clues to indicate to me not when Jon was born but that its being concealed.

That is incorrect.It has cultural sigificance for the Stark family.WB and main text validates that.

My point was not that the blue rose had no symbolic value in the story - try to assume I have a basic level of intelligence, of course they have meaning in the story. My point is that the connection between Dany's dream and Lyanna's crown is something the reader is supposed to get. In general, there is a ton of symbolism all through the books which is only intended for the reader, but this is not exclusive to symbolism that the characters in the story understand.

In order for us to infer a symbolic connection between Jon and Lyanna through the blue rose, we do not need to rely on any level of understanding of the blue rose from the characters in the book. WE, as the reader, as the ones who are supposed to draw a line between the Bael story, Lyanna's story, and Dany's vision.

[Prince of Ghost]

And maybe your essay will be the one to change my mind! I am still open-minded on this, despite all of my arguments - basically, all I am trying to say is that there is a high bar to clear, not that it can't be cleared. I don't think it is impossible that George is misleading us with RLJ, but I don't believe he would do so without giving us the clues to point to the right answer. I also think it's possible, not likely, but possible, that he has laid these clues and everyone but a very select few has missed them. I do keep that possibility in the back of my mind. I WILL be reading the Heresy essays and giving them a chance to show that they have picked up on things everyone is missing. In particular, I'd really like to see someone put together the case for Arthur + Lyanna, as that's the one which I can almost see if I squint my eyes hard enough (symbolism-wise, that is).

I'll still continue to shoot down what I see as weak arguments, as everyone does, but I just wanted to let you know I always give ideas a chance, even if they seem far fetched. I am aware that just because something sounds strange, that doesn't mean it's wrong. :)

Wolfmaid, in particular, you know that I absolutely love your Those Who Sing essay, have linked to it in several of my essays, and that I will always have a high level of respect for you, no matter how many cracked things you say about RLJ. Your fourth option? Really? Come on now. ;)

I am really looking forward to the Arthur and Lyanna essay and discussion as well! :)

[wolfmaid7]

It's the books which tie Dany's conception to around the time of her mother and brother's flight to Dragonstone, after receiving word of the result of the Battle of the Trident. And it is GRRM who in an SSM placed Jon's birth closer to 8-9 months than to a year before Dany's, likely within weeks of the Battle of the Trident. Yes I know all the blahblahblah taking issue with some or all of that, but that is what we are working with no matter how some don't like that. I don't buy the A+J=T theory, but I can at least respect that they take it seriously enough to lay out the case they believe, and are working on their case for it in consecutive threads about it, not just going into threads about a well established theory and offering no support for theories in its place.

So when the theory that Ned wasn't Jon was formed we all came to that conclusion differently for me ,a pattern was off.But all in all we knew something was wrong with the story given in the books and some of us had to follow the breadcrumbs to arrive at a conclusion.

Ok its the same thing with the timeline its off because the area/evidence surrounding it is off and doesn't match the conclusion.But you guys atleast some of you have an impatience you want to know on the spot just now. I may be figuring it out,something someone says here might be the one thing i need as i'm just talking it out.But apparently here is the wrong place to do that.

[Bael's Bastard]

Everyone knows when Dany was born. She is named after the storm she was born in. It is not a mystery, and it's not dependant on Viserys or Dany.

People only knew what Ned told them about Jon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Usually, i would do updates on "The Heretics Guide to Heresy." its pinned at the top in the Dance section.

Ok :) I'll try to keep an eye on that.

Any rough estimation as to when the first essay will drop though?

[Bael's Bastard]

Before TWOW, presumably?

[wolfmaid7]

And maybe your essay will be the one to change my mind! I am still open-minded on this, despite all of my arguments - basically, all I am trying to say is that there is a high bar to clear, not that it can't be cleared. I don't think it is impossible that George is misleading us with RLJ, but I don't believe he would do so without giving us the clues to point to the right answer. I also think it's possible, not likely, but possible, that he has laid these clues and everyone but a very select few has missed them. I do keep that possibility in the back of my mind. I WILL be reading the Heresy essays and giving them a chance to show that they have picked up on things everyone is missing. In particular, I'd really like to see someone put together the case for Arthur + Lyanna, as that's the one which I can almost see if I squint my eyes hard enough (symbolism-wise, that is).

I'll still continue to shoot down what I see as weak arguments, as everyone does, but I just wanted to let you know I always give ideas a chance, even if they seem far fetched. I am aware that just because something sounds strange, that doesn't mean it's wrong. :)

Wolfmaid, in particular, you know that I absolutely love your Those Who Sing essay, have linked to it in several of my essays, and that I will always have a high level of respect for you, no matter how many cracked things you say about RLJ. Your fourth option? Really? Come on now. ;)

:rofl: I know right...lol, I honestly expected it to be higher up myself but if i'm truthful nuh.Maybe after KingMonkey's essay i might revert but as it stands now ---no.When i discard all the noise of what's presented and look at the bare minimum of what the deal is.I weigh the symbols,myth(i'm a big myth person myself) the connections and parallels that others have made that i myself have made.Rhaegar as Lya's baby daddy falls very short for me. I don't even think it sets a high bar to be honest because its heavy with things that tries to hard.So maybe KM can make sense of all of this and highlight things i haven't seen or thought about.

I've seen a lot of the Arthur and Lyanna essay.It isn't finish but so far its beautifully done and i'm excited to discuss the Ned and Howland essays which i think are pretty solid from what i've seen.I think mine is as well so we'll see once eveyone discusses them. The others i don't know yet.

My point was not that the blue rose had no symbolic value in the story - try to assume I have a basic level of intelligence, of course they have meaning in the story. My point is that the connection between Dany's dream and Lyanna's crown is something the reader is supposed to get. In general, there is a ton of symbolism all through the books which is only intended for the reader, but this is not exclusive to symbolism that the characters in the story understand.

In order for us to infer a symbolic connection between Jon and Lyanna through the blue rose, we do not need to rely on any level of understanding of the blue rose from the characters in the book. WE, as the reader, as the ones who are supposed to draw a line between the Bael story, Lyanna's story, and Dany's vision.

Yes,this is it right there,the thing is what's the connection.That's subjective and in the end it comes down to whose connections make more sense.

There are tons of symbols,paralles etc but the interpretation of these is a subjective one and its all in how its presented.

[wolfmaid7]

Everyone knows when Dany was born. She is named after the storm she was born in. It is not a mystery, and it's not dependant on Viserys or Dany.

People only knew what Ned told them about Jon.

I'm very very glad you said that.We are in agreement.

[BearQueen87]

Before TWOW, presumably?

So sometime in the next 3-5 years? Excellent.

[IceFire125]

R+L=J theory now in the series, is like the theory of gravity.

It's technically not accurate, but it's very convincing for practical purposes.

The math mechanics that put the theory of gravity into "incorrect probability" is similar to whole Ned's travel distances and time to get where he was, days after the sack of KL until Ned arrives at the tower of joy, how many days from Harrenhal tourney to etc etc etc...

It's like you can't really prove that a bowling ball will reach the ground (gets pulled) faster when you're standing on Mount Everest, compare to when you're standing on the ground dropping the tennis ball. It's unrealistic and you need space (distance), in fact, you probably have to be miles high above the atmosphere to prove it. However, go beyond certain level of atmospheric distance, you already lose gravity, you're in space. Thus you have to go into the math of 0.00000000000111101010 something to prove that yes, a bowling ball will travel faster to the ground if dropped from Mount Everest, compare to when just standing on the ground dropping the tennis ball. Then you're just going to the whole electromagnetic force, dark matter/energy, etc etc... when you could just say gravity works practically 99.9% of the time on planet Earth.

damn, I probably just butchered that analogy, sorry if you're a physic major reading that.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok :) I'll try to keep an eye on that.

Any rough estimation as to when the first essay will drop though?

Sweet! i would like for the first to drop by mid August .I think before though, we are already on H172 so i should start getting the essays by H174.That was my cutting off mark to get all the essays in to me.

[wolfmaid7]

So sometime in the next 3-5 years? Excellent.

Well i doubt it will take 3-5 years to get through 2 Heresy threads.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sweet! i would like for the first to drop by mid August .I think before though, we are already on H172 so i should start getting the essays by H174.That was my cutting off mark to get all the essays in to me.

I'm not so familiar with the heresy threads (especially the speed they go in).. Is there usually one per 2 weeks, if the active one is 172 and around mid-august you expect to start 175?