Sansa's inability to form real friendships

[Tiliana]

Jeyne Poole aside (and even that relationship is problematic and less than even imo) what is the deal with Sansa consistently making friends with people who clearly don't care about her at all? Dontos, Myranda, the Tyrells. Paralell that with all of her siblings who form friendships of some sort throughout the story. Even Ned and Cat have Robert and Brienne. Would Sansa as theorized, ever be a half-way decent "player" if this is how the text frames her social skills?

[Mladen]

And we are to forget that Sansa is basically surrounded by enemies? She is literally imprisoned.

And not to mention that it is plainly false. She flourishes with the Tyrell flock and made quite the numerous friendships that ultimately led to nowhere. Furthermore, Tyrion noticed how excellent Sansa is at social skills during Joffrey's wedding. Lastly, she made some friends in Vale. It is plainly incorrect to say that she is incapable of making friends.

[Howl & Read]

She lives inside of her head for most of the books. Everything perfect with princes from the songs, no one could ever be lying. Also, she is just a bad judge of character.

The Hound has a bit more straightening out to do...

[Howl & Read]

Oops, it posted twice.

[bent branch]

I think Sansa can and does make true friends. I think Sansa shows poor judgement in understanding which people she should trust. For whatever reason, she almost always trusts the people who mean her harm.

[RoamingRonin]

It is plainly incorrect to say that she is incapable of making friends.

But...

Jeyne Poole aside (and even that relationship is problematic and less than even imo) what is the deal with Sansa consistently making friends with people who clearly don't care about her at all?

[falcotron]

I think Sansa can and does make true friends. I think Sansa shows poor judgement in understanding which people she should trust. For whatever reason, she almost always trusts the people who mean her harm.

Many of her friends didn't mean her any harm. Sure, Joffrey and Dontos/Littlefinger were mistakes, but Sandor was truly helpful to her, as were Margaery and Olenna, even if their motives were less than pure. For example, Olenna was clearly using Sansa as a pawn in a power play, but the intent was to marry her to a wise and kind man, living in the safest and most comfortable place in Westeros, where she'd eventually become Lady of the Reach, which isn't exactly a horrible fate.

[Pandalf]

what is the deal with Sansa consistently making friends with people who clearly don't care about her at all?

Well, I think that she is surrounded by people who don't care about her most part of the series, so it's not like she has many options. And I think that Sansa is a character who was very naive and has became progressively more aware of how the world truly is, so making that kind of mistakes is logical for her character.

She believed that the Tyrells were truly her friends, but again at that point she was still very innocent. About Dontos, well, given her situation at the moment anyone who doesn't hates or avoids you is a nice change i guess.

Also, she firmly believes that "courtesy is a lady's armour" and that's why she is polite and even friendly with everyone, even with those who don't care about her or that directly harm her, it's literally the only way she has to protect herself.

[Chocs]

Like said above, it's not like she's surrounded by people who actually care about her, she has always been in a tough situation.. she's trying to make the best out of what she can.

[sweetsunray]

First of all, she's young and secondly she's brought up with the Septa fawnong over her, except when she does something Mordane does not like and then Mordane threatens her by saying something as ridiculous she's starting to act like Arya (who in Mordane's eyes is wrothless).

Basically, Sansa is brought up as the golden girl, without actual peers/wardens of other higborn families.

It is true that the friendship she has with Jeyne Poole only makes it worse. Jeyne Poole is the steward's daughter. She is not highborn, and at first glance it seems wonderful that Sansa befriends a girl from a lower station (Arya makes friends amongst the servants as well). But being Sansa's best friend makes Jeyne conceited and she guards her position beside Sansa very well, so much that Jeyne bullies the second highborn daughter to scare her away and make her feel less. Jeyne dreams along with Sansa about songs, knights and so on. Of course, the reality is that Jeyne will not get to marry a handsome knight. The best she can hope for is to remain friends with Sansa, so that Sansa might choose her as her lady companion at whichever house she ends up marrying, and then she might catch the eye of a hedge knight. Because of this status inequality as well as the paradox of wanting the same thing as Sansa but knowing the chance for that is nill, Jeyne has no other option than to praise Sansa sky high, nod her head and agree with whatever Sansa says and thinks. We notice this explicitly in Sansa III, when Jeyne and Sansa discuss Ned's choice who to send after the Mountain. Sansa's going on about Loras, and Jeyne at some point mentions that Ser Beric is brave and gallant.

"Lord Beric is as much a hero as Ser Loras. He's ever so brave and gallant."

"I suppose," Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward's daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn't been half his age.

It would have been unkind to say so, however, so Sansa took a sip of milk and changed the subject. "I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart," she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical, and in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father. (aGoT, Sansa III)

Sansa thinks what I explained above about Jeyne having no chance with Beric. She's kind enough not to say it out loud, and she changes the topic: to herself and Joffrey. So, basically Sansa-Jeyne is a one sided "friendship" where Sansa will not listen to Jeyne's hopes and dreams and events of the day, but Jeyne must be her listening ear about everything. Another friction occurs and then Jeyne tries to make up for it by bringing Arya up. It's probably a topic that in the past served Jeyne will - where they would judge and gossip over awful Arya and whatever she's up to now again.

"I saw your sister this afternoon," Jeyne blurted out, as if she'd been reading Sansa's thoughts. "She was walking through the stables on her hands. Why would she do a thing like that?"

"I'm sure I don't know why Arya does anything." Sansa hated stables, smelly places full of manure and flies. Even when she went riding, she liked the boy to saddle the horse and bring it to her in the yard. "Do you want to hear about the court or not?"

"I do," Jeyne said.

"There was a black brother," Sansa said, "begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly." She hadn't liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon. "Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king's dungeons and sent him on his way. And later these two brothers came before him, freeriders from the Dornish Marches, and pledged their swords to the service of the king. Father accepted their oaths …"

Jeyne yawned. "Are there any lemon cakes?"

Sansa did not like being interrupted, but she had to admit, lemon cakes sounded more interesting than most of what had gone on in the throne room. "Let's see," she said.

Jeyne's absolutely not interested in what Sansa has to tell about court, and finally ends the unequal conversation by mentioning lemon cakes.

In a way, Sansa's been conditioned into picking friends based on how much they pander to her wishes, interests and flatter her. And it makes her a sitting duck for false people who hide behind a charming mask.

Harry the Heir says several things that reveal he's an oaf, and not just to her when he insults her upon meeting her. The way he talks of the mother of his first bastard child is just utterly disrespectful, gross and superficial, it should make dozen alarm bells ring in her head. But she stores it away as "honest" and softens as he flatters her and brings on the charm. She is more cautious in her actions, and does what LF advized her to do - claim she already gave her tournament boon to someone else - but when a person insults you at first meeting, and talks trash of others they used to be involved with, you can bet on it that they will talk trash of you as well at some point, no matter how many apologies they give, no matter how much they turn on the charm and flattery

[StarkofWinterfell]

Sansa has Theon. He helped her escape.

[Orphalesion]

None of Sansa's siblings is in a situation surrounded by enemies like she is. The relationship between Cat and Brienne was that of lady and champion, not friends and Robert was hardly a good friend to Ned, but exploited him and was dismissive.

I do think that at least Margaery's affection for Sansa was genuine to some degree and that ended only because of unfortunate circumstances. And why doesn't Jeyne Poole count as a friend?

[TreeFaces]

Sansa has formed friendships when given a genuine opportunity. Like previously said, just think of May and Myranda and before that the Tyrells. She hasn't been in a position to form friends and also is learning to distrust, use, and play the political game from LF who sees relationships as a currency or means to an end. Sansa might encounter a minor conflict of wanting to maintain the genuine friendships she is forming with Myranda and trying to maneuver herself into a more stable and safe position politically.

[Lord Wraith]

And we are to forget that Sansa is basically surrounded by enemies? She is literally imprisoned.

And not to mention that it is plainly false. She flourishes with the Tyrell flock and made quite the numerous friendships that ultimately led to nowhere. Furthermore, Tyrion noticed how excellent Sansa is at social skills during Joffrey's wedding. Lastly, she made some friends in Vale. It is plainly incorrect to say that she is incapable of making friends.

This really. Alayne has done a great job making friends in the Vale. No one wanted to be friends with the traitorous former Hand of the King's daughter, nothing she could do about that,

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This is the second time in the last few days I have had to post a reminder in a Sansa thread to not refer to TWoW chapters in the General section.

Further breaches of the spoilers rule will result in suspensions.

[/MOD]

[LordPathera]

Among other factors, Sansa's honestly a terrible judge of character for half of the series.

Why else would you screw-over your own sister in favor of the sociopath that tried to kill her and her friend unprovoked? And then continue to trust said sociopath and his evil mother when the latter had your pet wolf killed out of spite? Or think that she's safer with the Lannisters who were losing the Battle of Blackwater rather than the gruff warrior whose protected her and treated her better than just about everyone else in King's Landing and even stuck up for her?

By the time she wises up, it's when she's in Littlefinger's breadbasket. Even in the Vale, the only real friend she likely has is Mya Stone.

[Ice Turtle]

She do have trouble to form strong emotional connections with other people and it is not only because she is a hostage. It is visible even in Winterfell. The only relationship she forms in the whole books and is not skin deep is with Sandor. I think it is mainly because she herself does not really have emotional need for such relationships.

[direpoodle]

First of all, she's young and secondly she's brought up with the Septa fawnong over her, except when she does something Mordane does not like and then Mordane threatens her by saying something as ridiculous she's starting to act like Arya (who in Mordane's eyes is wrothless).

Basically, Sansa is brought up as the golden girl, without actual peers/wardens of other higborn families.

It is true that the friendship she has with Jeyne Poole only makes it worse. Jeyne Poole is the steward's daughter. She is not highborn, and at first glance it seems wonderful that Sansa befriends a girl from a lower station (Arya makes friends amongst the servants as well). But being Sansa's best friend makes Jeyne conceited and she guards her position beside Sansa very well, so much that Jeyne bullies the second highborn daughter to scare her away and make her feel less. Jeyne dreams along with Sansa about songs, knights and so on. Of course, the reality is that Jeyne will not get to marry a handsome knight. The best she can hope for is to remain friends with Sansa, so that Sansa might choose her as her lady companion at whichever house she ends up marrying, and then she might catch the eye of a hedge knight. Because of this status inequality as well as the paradox of wanting the same thing as Sansa but knowing the chance for that is nill, Jeyne has no other option than to praise Sansa sky high, nod her head and agree with whatever Sansa says and thinks. We notice this explicitly in Sansa III, when Jeyne and Sansa discuss Ned's choice who to send after the Mountain. Sansa's going on about Loras, and Jeyne at some point mentions that Ser Beric is brave and gallant.

Sansa thinks what I explained above about Jeyne having no chance with Beric. She's kind enough not to say it out loud, and she changes the topic: to herself and Joffrey. So, basically Sansa-Jeyne is a one sided "friendship" where Sansa will not listen to Jeyne's hopes and dreams and events of the day, but Jeyne must be her listening ear about everything. Another friction occurs and then Jeyne tries to make up for it by bringing Arya up. It's probably a topic that in the past served Jeyne will - where they would judge and gossip over awful Arya and whatever she's up to now again.

Jeyne's absolutely not interested in what Sansa has to tell about court, and finally ends the unequal conversation by mentioning lemon cakes.

In a way, Sansa's been conditioned into picking friends based on how much they pander to her wishes, interests and flatter her. And it makes her a sitting duck for false people who hide behind a charming mask.

Harry the Heir says several things that reveal he's an oaf, and not just to her when he insults her upon meeting her. The way he talks of the mother of his first bastard child is just utterly disrespectful, gross and superficial, it should make dozen alarm bells ring in her head. But she stores it away as "honest" and softens as he flatters her and brings on the charm. She is more cautious in her actions, and does what LF advized her to do - claim she already gave her tournament boon to someone else - but when a person insults you at first meeting, and talks trash of others they used to be involved with, you can bet on it that they will talk trash of you as well at some point, no matter how many apologies they give, no matter how much they turn on the charm and flattery

I think she's changing the subject with Jeyne because she doesn't want to outright tell her that she'll never marry someone like Beric, but she also doesn't want to give her false hope by playing along. I don't think it's that she won't listen to Jeyne and Jeyne must listen to her. She changed the subject because that was the safer thing to do, not to hurt Jeyne's feelings.

Also in regards to TWOW chapter:

Her meeting with Harry DOES set off alarm bells. She calls him Horrible Ser Harrold in her head and tells Petyr how horrible he is and hugs Lothor Brune for calling Harry an upjumped squire. When she meets him, she remarks that he's handsome, and that Joffrey was a handsome monster, indicating she knows looks don't mean anything. She wishes he falls on his head in the joust. She's thinking about how Petyr will react to her joke about Harry's lover. The only kind thought she has about him is that he has nice teeth, but she does this with everyone she meets-- she tries to find something nice about them, like Sweetrobin's hair. She plays along with the seduction because she knows she must, not because she likes him. She's constantly analyzing her behaviour and how it will look to him and always reminding herself throughout the chapter that she must make him love her. I don't think she's taken by him at all, she's playing him exactly the way Petyr suggests.

I think Sansa simply hasn't had the opportunity to make friends with people who truly care about her, but which highborn person really does? Most "friendships" are dutiful or political in their alliance. She has excellent social skills and she's very empathetic, so she absolutely has the ability to become the player. She's learned that she can't trust everyone, and with her "courtesy armour" has been fairly guarded in her behaviour for much of the series. She makes mistakes in judgment, but has been getting better.

[Balerion06]

Among other factors, Sansa's honestly a terrible judge of character for half of the series.

Why else would you screw-over your own sister in favor of the sociopath that tried to kill her and her friend unprovoked? And then continue to trust said sociopath and his evil mother when the latter had your pet wolf killed out of spite? Or think that she's safer with the Lannisters who were losing the Battle of Blackwater rather than the gruff warrior whose protected her and treated her better than just about everyone else in King's Landing and even stuck up for her?

By the time she wises up, it's when she's in Littlefinger's breadbasket. Even in the Vale, the only real friend she likely has is Mya Stone.

The Hound didn't come to rescue her at Blackwater, he came to rape her.

Kind of a big difference.

[Connartist92]

Sansa has Theon. He helped her escape.

We're talking about the books. Sansa hasn't seen Theon since she left Winterfell to go south to King's Landing with Ned, Arya, and King Robert's party at the beginning of the series.