Houses in Long Night

[Jaak]

Does anyone have a list of Houses which claim to have survived the Long Night, and of First Men Houses which don´t, having been founded sometime after Long Night and before Andal invasion?

[RobertRivers]

Stark and Bolton.

[Bluetiger]

Daynes claim to be 10 000 years old...

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don't think we have a list that specific. We can reasonably infer. House Dayne claims to have been around since the Dawn of Days. So they either predate the Long Night or came out of the Long Night (into the dawn). Blackwood ruled the Wolfs Wood but were driven out prior to the Andal invasion so I would think they were set up there beforehand. House Royce have their Bronze runic armour which is a mystery that could be connected to the Long Night.

There were Houses extinct before the Andals who would seem to have come out of the Long Night. I would think the Ryswells are offshoots of House Ryder. The Starks ended Houses and Amber Towers before the Andal invasion. There are a few others as well, check here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Extinct_houses

[John Suburbs]

The Daynes too. Also the Lannisters, the Hightowers, the Redwynes, the Tyrells (through the female line), Tully, Royce, Manderly, most of the northern houses. Perhaps the Greyjoys if the tales are true and maybe the Dondarrions, depending on which Storm King the original Don saved according to legend. This doesn't mean all of these were great houses ruling mighty seats, of course. House Tyrell were stewards to the Greenhands until the Field of Fire.

I think it would be easier to list the houses that are Andal in origin, as many of them simply married into first men houses. Arryn is an Andal house, there's probably a few others.

The only First Men house not around during the LN that I can think of is the Freys,

[TheSovereignGrave]

the Tyrells (through the female line)

House Tyrell was founded by an Andal, and the fact that they married a Gardener woman at some point isn't really relevant.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

We cannot guarantee that many of the ones above were around during the Age of Heroes right? Lannisters maybe through Lann the Clever, most of the Reach houses through Garth Greenhand.

We have no evidence that Manderly was around in the Long Night right? We assume the Yronwoods and other Stony Dornish were but there is nothing specific about them. Waynwood too.

Our only real 'evidence' of houses pre-dating the Long Night are those stories of Durran, The Grey King, Garth Greenhand, Lann. The architecture is muddled too. Winterfell's First Keep is undatable because of re-building. The Hightower's base is funky Oily Stone. We know Storms End is magic but the maesters say its too advanced in the stone work to be First Men. There seems to be nothing unquestionably that old. Starfall doesn't seem to warrant a mention.

Beyond that, we can't really differentiate between those who lived through the Long Night and those that didn't.

[Jak Scaletongue]

The Daynes too. Also the Lannisters, the Hightowers, the Redwynes, the Tyrells (through the female line), Tully, Royce, Manderly, most of the northern houses. Perhaps the Greyjoys if the tales are true and maybe the Dondarrions, depending on which Storm King the original Don saved according to legend. This doesn't mean all of these were great houses ruling mighty seats, of course. House Tyrell were stewards to the Greenhands until the Field of Fire.

I think it would be easier to list the houses that are Andal in origin, as many of them simply married into first men houses. Arryn is an Andal house, there's probably a few others.

The only First Men house not around during the LN that I can think of is the Freys,

You mean Gardeners right? Weren't the Tyrell's an Andal house that married into the Gardener's after they lost to the Andals?

ETA - ninja'd :ninja:

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don't think Gardners fought Andals did they? They let them in to settle. The Andal wars were on the East coast in the Vale, North, Stormlands and Riverlands. Only the Vale was really conquered

House Tyrell was founded by an Andal, and the fact that they married a Gardener woman at some point isn't really relevant.

If the heir was a woman I personally would count it, see Lannisters, Baratheons, Dornish houses. Maybe Starks if Bael is in any way true. Its would be a direct line down generation to generation. But the Tyrells were not direct heirs to the Gardner line so I agree, it doesn't count.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I imagine the Starks, Daynes, Hightowers and maybe Royces.

[Jaak]

Tully,

The only First Men house not around during the LN that I can think of is the Freys,

Tully most definitely NOT.

Tully names appear in many chronicles and annals of the Trident, back unto the days of the First Men,

when the first Edmure Tully and his sons fought beside the Hammer of Justice, Tristifer IV Mudd, in many of his ninety-nine

victories. After his death, Ser Edmure went over to the mightiest of the Andal conquerors, Armistead Vance.

It was from him that Edmure’s son Axel received a grant of lands at the juncture of the Red Fork and its

swift-running vassal the Tumblestone. There Lord Axel established his seat, in a red castle he named Riverrun.

Ser Edmure Tully was a First Man, who fought for Tristifer IV before he was Ser in his old age - but he was the first Edmure Tully.

Nor did he ever hold Riverrun - his son Axel was the first Lord Tully.

The father and grandfather of Ser Edmure may have been Tully, but there certainly had not been an Edmure Tully as long as there had been a Tully.

Or they may not even have been Tully, but surnameless First Man commoners.

There was, under the official chronology, a minimum of 2000 years between Long Night and Andal Conquest.

Plus the centuries of Conquest itself.

A House of First Men exterminated by Starks 500 years Before Conquest might then have been 1000 years old - founded 500 years after Long Night.

Or it might have been 2000 years old - founded 500 years before Long Night.

Or it might have been 5000 years old - founded 500 years after First Men immigration, which was 12 000 years ago, 4000 years before Long Night.

[joluoto2]

We don't know exactly when the Long Night happened, so we can't say for sure which Houses were around.

[Jaak]

We don't know exactly when the Long Night happened, so we can't say for sure which Houses were around.

To the contrary.

Just think what happens to a long history of illiterate people. Or to history for literate people who are not consulting their writings on the moment.

Try and list the Kings of Kent whom you can remember, in order, without consulting a written list. I´ll give my own list, in spoilers so you can try and give your own answer without consulting mine

Hengest

...

And now I´ll give the true list, likewise in spoilers so you can check your answer

Hengest

Horsa

Oisc

Octa

Eormenric

Aedhelberht I

Eadbald

Aedhelwald

Eorcenberht

Eormenred

Ecgberht I

Hlothhere

Eadric

Mul

Swaefheard

Swaefberht

Oswine

Wihtred

Alric

Eadberht I

Aedhelberht II

Eardwulf

Eadberht II

Sigered

Eanmund

Heaberht

Ecgberht II

Ealhmund

Eadberht III Praen

Cudhred

Coenwulf

Ceolwulf

Baldred

Ecgberht III

Aedhelwulf

Aedhelstan

Aedhelberht III

Aedhelred I

So, how many did you get?

[joluoto2]

Sure, we could count lords and kings backwards, but it still requires us to know when the Long Night was to be able to say which Houses were around Before, during and after. We do not know exactly when the Long Night happened, hust that it happened during the Age of Heroes, which spans millennia.

But when dicussing Houses that could be old enough to actually be around before the Long Night the Gardeners and the Dustins come to mind. The Gardeners are said to be the decendants of Garth Greenhand, a mythological figure that could well have been a Pre-pact First Men diety. That would make the Gardeners really really old. Unfortunately they are now extinct.

The Dustins are the direct decendants of the Barrow Kings who claimed to be direct decendants of the King of the First Men. That sounds like a really ancient heritage. Unfortunately they too are extinct (Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth, and she had no Children).

[Jaak]

Sure, we could count lords and kings backwards,

My point is, we cannot...

but it still requires us to know when the Long Night was to be able to say which Houses were around Before, during and after.

No, it doesn´t.

Look at the Kings of Kent. 38 names in about 400 years. Yet how many are commonly remembered? Well, the Memorable History names 2 - Hengest and Horsa.

The popes are at number 266 after 1982 years. There is nothing implausible about 998 Lord Comanders in 8000 years.

But how many Lord Commanders can an illiterate man remember? When the first literate septon arrived at the Wall and asked the illiterate brethren for the names of the Lord Commanders in the previous 2000 years, how many could they remember?

They would have remembered the last few, in recent memory. But beyond that? Just like Jaime said about the Kingsguard - probably fewer than two hundred all told. The few memorable ones get remembered. And the most recent ones.

But my point is - there are certain things which make people memorable.

Ordinary Catholics may not be able to say offhand the name of 133th Pope, but they would know the last few - and the first (St. Peter).

Each House would have a founding story and remember it, even as tens and tens of lords in the intervening centuries fade into oblivion except as a collection of memorable stories.

And surviving the Long Night should have been a memorable event. Every House founded before Long Night should have founding story AND Long Night story plus a few other memorable tales. Every House founded after Long Night should have founding story and a few other memorable tales, but not a Long Night story.

This does not mean the time of Long Night could be exactly known. The first Andal septon to write down the history of Night Watch could have got the names of, say, 10 last Lord Commanders (as of now, 10 last popes have rule since 1903) and 10 memorable ones in the centuries before, including THE first - but, since a bunch of Lord Commanders were clearly forgotten as unmemorable ones, might have difficulty telling whether they were dealing with 20 forgotten Commanders and a total of 40 in half a thousand years, or 200 forgotten commanders and a total of 220 in three thousands of years. Ditto about the first literate court historian of Gardeners, Durrandons or Lannisters - they might have a good idea of what their hosts were doing in Long Night, but only a hazy idea of how many kings their illiterate hosts had forgotten for not being memorable.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Lannisters are an Andal house, they were not around during the Long Night, the Casterlys may have been.

[Jak Scaletongue]

To the contrary.

Just think what happens to a long history of illiterate people. Or to history for literate people who are not consulting their writings on the moment.

Try and list the Kings of Kent whom you can remember, in order, without consulting a written list. I´ll give my own list, in spoilers so you can try and give your own answer without consulting mine

Hengest

...

And now I´ll give the true list, likewise in spoilers so you can check your answer

Hengest

Horsa

Oisc

Octa

Eormenric

Aedhelberht I

Eadbald

Aedhelwald

Eorcenberht

Eormenred

Ecgberht I

Hlothhere

Eadric

Mul

Swaefheard

Swaefberht

Oswine

Wihtred

Alric

Eadberht I

Aedhelberht II

Eardwulf

Eadberht II

Sigered

Eanmund

Heaberht

Ecgberht II

Ealhmund

Eadberht III Praen

Cudhred

Coenwulf

Ceolwulf

Baldred

Ecgberht III

Aedhelwulf

Aedhelstan

Aedhelberht III

Aedhelred I

So, how many did you get?

I remembered Hengist AND Horsa! But that's about it, though a few of them rang a bell once I saw the name - I'd do better with Wessex I think :D (not by much...)

I doubt many of the Great Houses were formed at the time of the Long Night. The Great Houses ancestors may have survived, and the Great Houses may even still hold the land their ancestors held during the Long Night, but chances are reasonable that most to some of the current day "Great" Houses were farmers, herders, woodcutters, etc during the time of the Long Night. Some of the Great Houses probably survived it, but most probably didn't become "Great" Houses until after the Long Night.

So, for example, the Royce's ancestors may have settled the area, survived the Long Night, but didn't become Kings until after the Long Night - when their neighbours were as starved, scared and desperate as the Royce's themselves and the pickings were easy (so to speak) and those neighbours either joined forces with the Royce's or fought and lost and then the Royce's became Kings. After the Long Night.

That's the way I understand it, anyway.

[Jaak]

I remembered Hengist AND Horsa!

So did I, but I remembered that Horsa was Hengest´s brother, and not that he survived Hengest to be himself King.

Which actually is disputed, anyway. The first source is Venomous Bead, writing almost 300 years later.

To repeat the point: in a long list of names, wars and marriages, most will be neglected, and for illiterate people next step is forgetting.

What get remembered are the memorable tales, and these include origin story.

I doubt many of the Great Houses were formed at the time of the Long Night. The Great Houses ancestors may have survived, and the Great Houses may even still hold the land their ancestors held during the Long Night, but chances are reasonable that most to some of the current day "Great" Houses were farmers, herders, woodcutters, etc during the time of the Long Night.

Most of Westeros had fairly little social mobility in 6000 years after Andal Conquest. Starks, Arryns, Hoares, Lannisters, Gardeners and Durrandons ruled uninterupted from Andal to Targaryen conquest.

Only Riverlands were exception, in having multiple dynasties.

About the previous 6000 years, First Men who came already had Kings. Kings existed all the time in between.

So the question is, did the First Men kingdoms feature instability like Riverlands?

So, for example, the Royce's ancestors may have settled the area, survived the Long Night, but didn't become Kings until after the Long Night - when their neighbours were as starved, scared and desperate as the Royce's themselves and the pickings were easy (so to speak) and those neighbours either joined forces with the Royce's or fought and lost and then the Royce's became Kings. After the Long Night.

It seems logical that immediate aftermath of Long Night would have been a time of relative instability, yes. Brandon the Builder also operated after the Long Night...

[Jak Scaletongue]

So did I, but I remembered that Horsa was Hengest´s brother, and not that he survived Hengest to be himself King.

Which actually is disputed, anyway. The first source is Venomous Bead, writing almost 300 years later.

To repeat the point: in a long list of names, wars and marriages, most will be neglected, and for illiterate people next step is forgetting.

What get remembered are the memorable tales, and these include origin story.

Most of Westeros had fairly little social mobility in 6000 years after Andal Conquest. Starks, Arryns, Hoares, Lannisters, Gardeners and Durrandons ruled uninterupted from Andal to Targaryen conquest.

Only Riverlands were exception, in having multiple dynasties.

About the previous 6000 years, First Men who came already had Kings. Kings existed all the time in between.

So the question is, did the First Men kingdoms feature instability like Riverlands?

It seems logical that immediate aftermath of Long Night would have been a time of relative instability, yes. Brandon the Builder also operated after the Long Night...

I'm going to assume a "damn you, autocorrect" moment and just clarify - you mean "Venerable Bede" right? The "Venomous" threw me off...

But yes, I definitely agree. Way too much gets lost and/or changed in the retellings over time.

While I think the First Men kingdoms were relatively stable before the Long Night (I'd guess about as stable as Kent/Wessex/Mercia/East Anglia/Northumbria were, but still prone to uprisings and usurpations), I think the Long Night itself destroyed all that stability and all the surviving First Men had to start all over. Some of those starting over would have been the Kings/Lords from before, but there also would have been others who took advantage of the chaos, desperation and instability to become Kings/Lords after the Long Night.

Cause the Long Night would have been BAD. Starvation, chaos, desperation, instability. Kings wouldn't have been worth the cost during the Long Night. I'm guessing they would have either been 1)attacked for their hordes of food (whether they actually had any food wouldn't matter, the commoners would think it), 2)been usurped by someone who DID have a horde of food (or was charming enough to convince the commoners that the King was useless), or 3)"taken down a peg" and lived, through necessity, like his common subjects. The third group probably had the best chance of "reviving" his kingdom afterwards. The other two groups would be long gone by now. And there's probably a dozen more scenarios that I haven't though of off the top of my head! But I've always had the impression that the Long Night was an "every man for himself" type of catastrophe - which may not be right. I suppose it's entirely possible that they banded around a local "king" and survived through working together. But I suppose that "king" may not have been THE King. In my defense, I generally assume the worst of a group of people (people are stupid when they're a mob) - individuals vary, but as a group we're all idiots! Anyways, it seems to me that something like the Long Night would be best survived in small family groups - less people need less food from a smaller area which means less work (in the freezing cold) to find food. That's why I've always assumed "every man for himself" or rather "every family for itself."

[Chocs]

House Blackwood, irrc.