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sansa the heir to casterly rock?


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isnt sansa pretty much the heir to casterly rock now? jaime is in the kingsguard and most probably will die.. tyrion is wanted for treason so i doubt hes get anything.. cersei is gonna die too so that leaves sansa.. shell also have the vale. the north and riverlands behind her.. what can she potenitally do with so much power? shell make the most valuable queen in the seven kingdoms



pls do civil discussion..i dont understand why my other post was locked.. no one explained anything to me but probably cuz people were fighting to much so pls lets discuss what sansa can do with so much power


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Don't forget Tommen and Myrcella.



As a matter of fact, even if the main Lannister line was to go fully extinct/attainted, I doubt whoever the King in place was at the time would give the Rock to Sansa. They have plenty of close kin, like Damon Lannister (Stafford's son, which also makes him Joanna's nephew).



ETA: :ninja: 'd


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If Tyrion is wanted for treason and regicide, then Sansa's in the same boat. I wouldn't go as far as saying she has no claim to the Rock at all, but the claim she has is weak and questionable at best.



It could, however, potentially, lead to an interesting situation should she finally become a cunning politician (as I've seen her heralded countless times by her fans), and a few more Lannisters kick the bucket.


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Sansa has a claim to Winterfel (after Bran and Rickon, who are believed to be dead), Riverrun (after Edmure, his child-ren, if he has any, and Bran and Rickon) and to Harrenhal through her grandmother Minisa Whent (after members of the Whent family, who are supposedly dead/line extinct, and the above mentioned Edmure, Bran and Rickon).



But she has absolutely no claim to Casterly Rock. Being married to someone does not make you heir. If she were to have children by Tyrion, they may be heirs to CR - but only if the attainder against Tyrion is lifted and he gets back his own right to CR he lost due to being a condemned regicide, and murderer of Lord of CR, Tywin Lannister.



Needless to say, even if that happens and Tyrion becomes Lord of CR (and it could happen only if Tyrion returns to Westeros backed by an anti-Lannister force, i.e. Dany - because, even if Tyrion is cleared of Joffrey's murder, he definitely did murder Tywin), Sansa is really unlikely to have any children by Tyrion, or be even remotely interested in Casterly Rock.


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I think trying to figure out what "the law" says about inheritance in complicated cases is pointless. I don't think they even have formal inheritance laws, just general principles that are followed in the simple cases. For anything more complex or non-obvious, it's up to the liege to decide. Or, in some cases, it's just decided by force, or by an agreement among the claimants.

For example, when Halys Hornwood dies with no obvious heir, his widow Donella goes to Winterfell to sort out the succession. Everyone seems to agree that she's the Lady of Hornwood for the time being, but beyond that? Bran, Rodrik, and the handful of lords who are there at the time talk about various possibilities, including giving it to Halys's bastard, following Halys's maternal connections to Karstark or Flint, or finding Donella a suitable new husband like Wyman Manderly (who presumably wouldn't have any new heirs with Donella, but could leave Hornwood to his second son, Wendel). But then Ramsay kidnaps Donella, marries her, forces her to name him as her heir, and kills her, and now he's Lord Ramsay of Hornwood, and presumably will stay Lord until Manderly finds a way to eat him.

So, if Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella die, who's the heir to Casterly Rock? Whoever the Lannisters' liege, the King, whichever King that is, decides. He'd presumably want to pick someone who's not totally out of left field and won't piss off the Lannisters and their vassals too much (because if he really wanted to piss off the Lannisters, he'd just strip them of their title and give the mines to someone else), but really, it's whoever he wants. Or, if everything falls apart so badly that it's not clear who's King, or the Lannisters rise up in revolt against the crown or something, then presumably whoever has the most local power will seize the Rock. Either way, I don't see Sansa as a strong possibility.

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But she has absolutely no claim to Casterly Rock. Being married to someone does not make you heir.

Are you sure? Everyone seemed to agree that Halys Hornwood's heir was his widow Donella, at least under Winterfell could come up with something better. And most of the suggestions for that "something better" were to find her a suitable husband, with the implication being that he would inherit Hornwood (and pass it to his second son or something). And when Ramsay Snow forced Donella to marry him, he became her heir, and Rodrik Cassel couldn't find any way to set that aside (although Wylas Manderly said he could find an army to do it). So, at least sometimes, it seems being married to someone does make you heir.
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For example, when Halys Hornwood dies with no obvious heir, his widow Donella goes to Winterfell to sort out the succession. Everyone seems to agree that she's the Lady of Hornwood for the time being, but beyond that? Bran, Rodrik, and the handful of lords who are there at the time talk about various possibilities, including giving it to Halys's bastard, following Halys's maternal connections to Karstark or Flint, or finding Donella a suitable new husband like Wyman Manderly (who presumably wouldn't have any new heirs with Donella, but could leave Hornwood to his second son, Wendel). But then Ramsay kidnaps Donella, marries her, forces her to name him as her heir, and kills her, and now he's Lord Ramsay of Hornwood, and presumably will stay Lord until Manderly finds a way to eat him.

Only in his own mind. Nobody else in the North recognized his supposed right to Hornwood. Or his marriage to Donella, for that matter - Maester Luwin thought that marriage at swordpoint was invalid, and Rodrik Cassel went to arrest/kill Ramsay for what he did, and believed he did, so this was obviously considered a crime. If they don't even consider that a valid marriage and consider Ramsay a criminal and kidnapper for forcing Donella to marry him, it's not even a question whether they would consider him really a Lord of Hornwood.

But "might makes right" - Cassel is dead, Luwin is dead, Robb Stark is dead, Bran and Rickon are missing and believed dead, the Boltons got the power in the North through their Lannister alliance, and most of the northern lords have been pretending to be OK with that due to having their family members as hostages taken at the RW, though it's clearly not going to last.

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Are you sure? Everyone seemed to agree that Halys Hornwood's heir was his widow Donella, at least under Winterfell could come up with something better. And most of the suggestions for that "something better" were to find her a suitable husband, with the implication being that he would inherit Hornwood (and pass it to his second son or something). And when Ramsay Snow forced Donella to marry him, he became her heir, and Rodrik Cassel couldn't find any way to set that aside (although Wylas Manderly said he could find an army to do it). So, at least sometimes, it seems being married to someone does make you heir.

Yes, I am sure. The Hornwood estate was up for grabs only because they had no clear heir that could immediately inherit.

If that's how it worked, Littlefinger would have no need to worry about Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir or how to keep the power in the Vale, he would be Lord due to being the widower of Jon Arryn's widow (Ramsay's Cunning Plan).

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Yes, I am sure. The Hornwood estate was up for grabs only because they had no clear heir that could immediately inherit.

And if the Lannister estate had no clear heir that could inherit, it would be up for grabs too. It wouldn't be some clerk pulling out the detailed laws of inheritance and family trees. Those laws don't exist, and fans who think they know them are just pulling them out of their asses.

Let's look at an example:

Kevans children, Tyre if he is still alive, then Genna's children and then if they all die then one of Jason's (Tywins uncle) descendants.

This assumes that there's some law that goes from Tywin to his brother, then his brother's descendants, then his son, then his son's descendants, then his sister, then his sister's descendants, then skips his other siblings and goes to his uncle's descendants. Why does Kevan's line come before Tywin's, or Jason's before Tygett's? I have no idea, but thelittledragonthatcould is absolutely sure that they do, without question.
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And if the Lannister estate had no clear heir that could inherit, it would be up for grabs too. It wouldn't be some clerk pulling out the detailed laws of inheritance and family trees. Those laws don't exist, and fans who think they know them are just pulling them out of their asses.

Let's look at an example:

This assumes that there's some law that goes from Tywin to his brother, then his brother's descendants, then his son, then his son's descendants, then his sister, then his sister's descendants, then skips his other siblings and goes to his uncle's descendants. Why does Kevan's line come before Tywin's, or Jason's before Tygett's? I have no idea, but thelittledragonthatcould is absolutely sure that they do, without question.

Huh? Kevan's line obviously doesn't come before Tywin's.

Yes, there are rules of inheritance in Westeros, and we know exactly what they are. Eldest son inherits (eldest child if you are in Dorne). Then his children and descendants, all of them. Then his next brother (next sibling if you are in Dorne) and all their descendants. Then the daughters, if you are not in Dorne. And only when all of the descendants of the eldest son (child, if you are in Dorne) is dead, you go down the family line and the next brother (sibling, you are in Dorne).

Marriage in itself does not give you a claim, if you have no blood claim. You could only rule in the name of your child, or your spouse if you're a guy.

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isnt sansa pretty much the heir to casterly rock now? jaime is in the kingsguard and most probably will die.. tyrion is wanted for treason so i doubt hes get anything.. cersei is gonna die too so that leaves sansa.. shell also have the vale. the north and riverlands behind her.. what can she potenitally do with so much power? shell make the most valuable queen in the seven kingdoms

pls do civil discussion..i dont understand why my other post was locked.. no one explained anything to me but probably cuz people were fighting to much so pls lets discuss what sansa can do with so much power

Sansa is also wanted for regicide. Most would call that treason. As hers and Tyrion's marriage was never consummated, she cannot marry anyone else and still claim her marriage to Tyrion could be legally set aside due to the lack of a bedding. I don't think she can have it both ways. Interesting to see how it plays out.

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Sansa is also wanted for regicide. Most would call that treason. As hers and Tyrion's marriage was never consummated, she cannot marry anyone else and still claim her marriage to Tyrion could be legally set aside due to the lack of a bedding. I don't think she can have it both ways. Interesting to see how it plays out.

This. As far as everyone knows, she's as guilty as Tyrion, so I doubt anyone would support her claim to the Rock, even if she had had a kid or two from Tyrion.

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Sansa is also wanted for regicide. Most would call that treason. As hers and Tyrion's marriage was never consummated, she cannot marry anyone else and still claim her marriage to Tyrion could be legally set aside due to the lack of a bedding. I don't think she can have it both ways. Interesting to see how it plays out.

It really doesn't matter if the marriage was consummated or not. The marriage is valid until one of them would like to get a divorce. And it would be a reason to actually get the divorce or even annul it - on either side. It's pretty like the Roman Catholic church.

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This time another fragment of the well known, yet so frequently disregarded, SSM. You know which one.



And when Alexander III, King of Scots, rode over a cliff, and Margaret the Maid of Norway died en route back home, and the Scottish lords called on Edward I of England to decide who had the best claim to the throne, something like fourteen or fifteen (I'd need to look up the exact number) "competitors" came forward to present their pedigrees and documents to the court. The decision eventually boiled down to precedence (John Balliol) versus proximity (Bruce) and went to Balliol, but those other thirteen guys all had claims as well. King of Eric of Norway, for instance, based his claim to the throne on his =daughter=, the aforementioned Maid of Norway, who had been the queen however briefly. He seemed to believe that inheritance should run backwards. And hell, if he had been the king of France instead of the king of Norway, maybe it would have.



Yeah, spouses count, and in-laws count, in the game. Sure, under "normal" circumstances, the inheritance goes to the deceased lord's oldest son. Under murky, conflicted circumstances, however, say, should a few blood relatives drop dead, have their right to inherit questioned, have their parentage questioned... well, all kinds of weird shit can go down, and a young, noble, fair Lannister widow pressing her "claim" would be far from the weirdest possible scenario. Saying otherwise simply contradicts what the story tells us, and what the author tells us.


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