Rant and Rave Without Repercussion: Season 5 Continued (Book Spoilers)

[TepidHands]

That the person has the excuse of incompetence or not doesn't matter, we are consumers, and the product is not what we wanted. This is a business.

Indeed, and the graphic of the flat audience this season except for the first and last shows, and the stunning decline after episode 6, has to be concerning for HBO. And there IS a growing grumble among critics about the decline in quality. Dorne didn't do the show any favors this year, but it's only the most obvious flaw. 

[Cas Stark]

Indeed, and the graphic of the flat audience this season except for the first and last shows, and the stunning decline after episode 6, has to be concerning for HBO. And there IS a growing grumble among critics about the decline in quality. Dorne didn't do the show any favors this year, but it's only the most obvious flaw. 

 

I doubt it, to be honest.  They got massive bounce back in the last 3 episodes, so their cumulative audience slightly increased over last year, that plus the Emmys...HBO has nothing to worry about.  Especially since they are only doing 7 seasons, and they will presumably have the hype machine in over drive when the 'deader than dead' Jon Snow makes his reappearance at some point.

[kissdbyfire]

It's really good! And I find it interesting, especially in it's portrayal of the Late 40's. 
 
I'm planning on using this app for any future discussions of season 5  :bowdown:

There are four different 'shame' apps, I've downloaded them all! :laugh:

[GoldHandTheGood]

 

The problem is, we get to this point where we are told it's not intentional, therefore we can't talk in terms of sexism, homophobia, or racism, but of incompetence.

 

That the person has the excuse of incompetence or not doesn't matter, we are consumers, and the product is not what we wanted. This is a business.

If the product is not what you wanted then stop purchasing it. Feel free to criticize it, but don't be surprised nor expect the product to be adjusted to your liking, as many are clearly pleased with the product. You, and others here, are only a certain denomination of consumers. There are a vast quantity of others who are willing consumers, and continue to be. I've even noticed here and on other threads people who claim to be, or speak like ardent opposers of the show and its failings, yet still consume it. Then they complain, quite bizarrely, that the show hasn't changed to their liking.

 

By consuming it, you're approving of its problems. And as a sidenote, HBO and D&D are not under any obligation to adjust their product to the liking of a minority consumer base. You, as a customer, are dissatisfied, but many others aren't. There was never any guarantee that the product would always be of a certain style or quality, and if you are displeased, then the simple answer is to go elsewhere for a product which is more satisfactory to you. GOT doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon, and to consume it further, even while publicly critiquing it, will only encourage the failings that clearly dissatisfy certain viewers.

[Le Cygne]

Indeed, and the graphic of the flat audience this season except for the first and last shows, and the stunning decline after episode 6, has to be concerning for HBO. And there IS a growing grumble among critics about the decline in quality. Dorne didn't do the show any favors this year, but it's only the most obvious flaw.

Yep, it's flat. And they know they have to jive with this one.
 
At some point, they'll try to address the problem in general, when it's too late.
 
I posted this upthread:
 

With one exception over the course of four decades, HBO has not aired an original one-hour drama series created by a woman.

 

With one exception over the course of four decades, HBO has not aired an original one-hour drama or dramatic miniseries creatively led at its debut by a person of color...

 

To be clear, HBO isn't the whole story. A few outlets aren't the whole story. But these numbers mean something. When audiences want to check on the state of high-end drama -- TV that examines, articulates and interrogates the human condition -- these places are among the first places they look. They're among the outlets that tell us who we are and who we could be. The kind of places that are supposed move the ball forward when it comes to the evolution of the art form.
 
Many at the head of the pack, however, are behind the curve.

 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/06/hbo-diversity_n_4899679.html

[TepidHands]

From that HuffPo article:

 

"Game of Thrones"
Created by David Benioff, D.B. Weiss

 

WHAT!!!!????

 

(off to go kick something)

[Le Cygne]

That's a screen credit.

Here's a list:

http://www.wga.org/subpage_writersresources.aspx?id=181

 

And a nice infographic:

 

http://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film/

[Lord Eddard]

If the product is not what you wanted then stop purchasing it. Feel free to criticize it, but don't be surprised nor expect the product to be adjusted to your liking, as many are clearly pleased with the product. You, and others here, are only a certain denomination of consumers. There are a vast quantity of others who are willing consumers, and continue to be. I've even noticed here and on other threads people who claim to be, or speak like ardent opposers of the show and its failings, yet still consume it. Then they complain, quite bizarrely, that the show hasn't changed to their liking.

 

By consuming it, you're approving of its problems. And as a sidenote, HBO and D&D are not under any obligation to adjust their product to the liking of a minority consumer base. You, as a customer, are dissatisfied, but many others aren't. There was never any guarantee that the product would always be of a certain style or quality, and if you are displeased, then the simple answer is to go elsewhere for a product which is more satisfactory to you. GOT doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon, and to consume it further, even while publicly critiquing it, will only encourage the failings that clearly dissatisfy certain viewers.

 

:agree: Awesome post!

[Annara Snow]

GoT is a hamburger?

 

Anyway, due to the sudden popularity of people posting What If? scenarios here, I've decided to re-post my little imaginary scene "What if Buffy and Angel were  a book series and two guys, let's call them Rick and Ray, decided to adapt them for TV the way D&S have adapted ASOAIF?" from an older Rant and Rave thread. For, uh, no particular reason. :mellow: 

 

If you haven't seen Buffy or Angel - spoilers for all seasons of both shows.

 

[spoiler]

 

- You know, Rick, this Buffy is a really cool character! People are totally going to love her!
- Of course, Ray! A hot blonde chick who can fight and deliver quips, what else can you want?
- But you know what, there are some things that bug me about her story, like the culmination of this thing with the Master - I mean, that when she dies and comes back, what a great scene! Totally season finale stuff!
- Yes, awesome! But I know what you mean, we have to make some changes. Wouldn't it make more sense if, instead of her going to his underground lair to face him, his minions came to the library and attacked her, and Giles tries to save her...
- But he doesn't succeed. And then they drag her to the Master, and she shivers and is ready to die, and he kills her. But then Xander and Angel appear, kill the Master and save her!
- That will totally improve the story!
- And Willow. I really like the way she grows from an insecure girl into someone powerful and more confident, like when she starts using magic and shit...
- Yes, female empowerment! Great! But her storyline is kinda slow and boring in this part, we can't give Alyson Hannigan so little to do. So maybe we give her some other character's role as a filler this season?
- How about this Katrina, Warren's girlfriend that he mind controls and tries to rape and then kills? I love that storyline! But nobody cares about this Katrina chick, so why don't we make that Willow's storyline?
- Great idea! We'll bring in that storyline, we'll use Willow for Warren's storyline. But how do we make it work?
- Well, let's say, Willow agrees to date Warren.
- But why does she do that?
- I dunno. We'll make up some shit. Like, Rack tells her to? We'll make it look like she totally trusts Rack.
- OK, but he still needs to give her a reason.
- How about, he tells her the only way she can fight Warren is if she becomes his girlfriend?
- Great! Forget magic. A woman using her sexuality, that's totally empowering.
- And I think it will make perfect sense!
- It makes perfect sense!
- And then Warren locks her up and mind controls her, beats her up and abuses her for an entire season. This will give Alyson Hannigan such great material, she's at her best when she is looking sad and downtrodden.
- She'll look really pretty with bruises.
- But that's, like, not intense enough. Maybe we also create a love triangle. Like, Warren has a a really jealous girlfriend who hates Willow, and then they have bitchy conversations?
- Great idea. And in the end, Jonathan saves her by killing Warren's bitchy girlfriend and they run away.
- This will be a great way to show what a bad guy Warren is, and for Jonathan's redemption story. But she'll also show how she's empowered and all, when she tells Warren's girlfriend she's ready to die, before Jonathan comes to save her.
- Totally empowering. Next season we'll just get her back to her real story.
- I love the way we'll streamlining this story.
- But I dunno, maybe someone will be upset with us putting Willow through all of that?
- Bah, we'll just tell them that's "in the source material!" And it's worse, Katrina gets killed! So they will have no cause to complain!
- You're right. You know what else, I think we must change some things about Angel. His story gets too depressive, he hates himself, he does really bad things... the audience will have a problem with that! He's our hero, people like him!
- I know! We can't have him do, like, problematic shit, like locking up those lawyers, or being nasty to his friends and sacking them, or that thing with Darla...
- Right. We'll just have him be sad and sulk a little for a couple of episodes, and Cordelia will tell him he's awesome, and then he'll turn it around and be a great guy for the rest of the season. He will never lock up those lawyers, he won't sack his friends, he won't try to lose his soul. He must be a good guy 100%.
- But what about Darla?
- She'll offer him sex because he's such a great guy, but he'll politely refuse her.
- Oh, that's perfect.
- Spike also has some boring shit this year. I don't understand this story of his at all.
- Me neither. Like, he's supposed to be changing, or something? What's this crap about fighting for his soul? Now he wants to be a good guy? WTF?
- Doesn't make sense to me either, must be bad writing. I think he should still be totally in love with Drusilla, they were the perfect couple, and he should still be doing everything for her and to be a big bad vampire.
- But fans seem to like this Buffy/Spike thing... And some of these things here seem like he has been falling in love with Buffy?
- OK, we'll give one little nod to this thing with Buffy, but that's all. And anyway, we'll see what to do about him next year. But now we'll give him some filler storyline.
- Like we did with Willow? So, like, he gets abused by some bad guy?
- No, you fool! He's a male character, his filler story will be some random action stuff where he gets to fight and all. Like, maybe he gets to go on a hilarious bro trip with Andrew where they fight some bad guys!
- Oh, great idea! They will be so funny together! We gotta think of some witty lines for Spike... I'm not very good at that, can you do it?
- Meh, we both know that Andrew is the funnier of the two! Andrew will get most scenes. We don't need Spike to be funny, too. He can just fight and look sexy, I mean that's why people love Spike, right? Being a sexy badass?
- TBH I don't know why people like him, but that must be it. So, how about we have him fight some hot, badass Latina evil Slayers...
- Wait, fighting humans? I thought he is handicapped because of his chip, that was kind of a big deal in the story...
- Bah, you're such a nerd. It doesn't matter.
- You're right. Who cares. OK, now what about this Wesley Wyndam-Pryce dude?
- Well, he's a bad guy, right?
- Yeah. He was totally annoying when he first appeared. Must be a bad guy.
- So we have to make sure people see how evil he is before we kill him off. Like, he'll throw Connor into the other dimension with an evil grin on his face, to stick it to Angel. All because of his crazy ambition and lust of power, he was always angry because he wanted to be the top guy, that's why he hated Giles and why he hates Angel, because Angel's authority overshadows his.
- You've got a perfect read on his character. Ambition and lust for power, that's totally what always motivated Wesley.
- We are so good at characterization. We must also fix a few other characters that don't make sense. Like that Larry.
- I know, right? He just doesn't seem gay at all. He has to talk constantly about how much he likes Broadway, hairdressing and Liza Minelli.
- Exactly. We'll make him such a great gay character. Everyone will see how progressive we are, totally not homophobic.
- That Wood guy, too. He doesn't seem black at all. He must be always listening to hip hop and talking about the life in da hood.
- Perfect, we'll show we're also not racist.
- Another character we need to fix is Tara. She's just so dull and weak. We need to make her stronger and more empowered! Like, she should be always yelling about revenge and urging Willow and Buffy to kill people.
- We'll make her such a strong female character!
- I think we need to humanize Glory. We'll show that she's really nice and justified in everything she does and that people just hate her because she's a woman.
- Yes, we're not some woman-haters. That will show how feminist we are. We are so good with female characters, Rick.
- We totally are, Ray.
- And not only have we streamlined the story, I think we've really improved on it.
- We totally have.

[/spoiler]

[Mindwalker]

 

The problem is, we get to this point where we are told it's not intentional, therefore we can't talk in terms of sexism, homophobia, or racism, but of incompetence.

 

That the person has the excuse of incompetence or not doesn't matter, we are consumers, and the product is not what we wanted. This is a business.

:agree: Awesome post!

[TepidHands]

You know, basically it boils down to this: I liked the books immensely. I know aFfC and aDwD were difficult for some folks to read and get their minds around. Those folks probably should stick with simpler stuff, like that Twilight stuff. I was excited when I heard that HBO would adapt them, and Season 1 wasn't too far from mark for me: good casting, good acting, but especially, sharp and faithful scripts. I figured if the grownups were in charge, the geographic and time challenges of the last two books would handled just as well.

 

That was a mistake. 

 

Instead of "Justice and vengeance, fire and blood!" we got "bad pussy." We got a sexed-up Ramsey and his 20 good men. We got a child burned by her father, a bride that was never there, a rape that apparently was in the planning when the actress was 14. We got Harryhausen skeketons that move at superhuman speed.

 

We got SHOCK, but we got little awe.

 

And now, we have the Fanboy Militant. 

 

Sigh. I need a drink. 

[RGBeyondAsshai]

You know, basically it boils down to this: I liked the books immensely. I know aFfC and aDwD were difficult for some folks to read and get their minds around. Those folks probably should stick with simpler stuff, like that Twilight stuff. I was excited when I heard that HBO would adapt them, and Season 1 wasn't too far from mark for me: good casting, good acting, but especially, sharp and faithful scripts. I figured if the grownups were in charge, the geographic and time challenges of the last two books would handled just as well.

 

That was a mistake. 

 

Instead of "Justice and vengeance, fire and blood!" we got "bad pussy." We got a sexed-up Ramsey and his 20 good men. We got a child burned by her father, a bride that was never there, a rape that apparently was in the planning when the actress was 14. We got Harryhausen skeketons that move at superhuman speed.

 

We got SHOCK, but we got little awe.

 

And now, we have the Fanboy Militant. 

 

Sigh. I need a drink. 

:thumbsup: This

[kissdbyfire]

You know, basically it boils down to this: I liked the books immensely. I know aFfC and aDwD were difficult for some folks to read and get their minds around. Those folks probably should stick with simpler stuff, like that Twilight stuff. I was excited when I heard that HBO would adapt them, and Season 1 wasn't too far from mark for me: good casting, good acting, but especially, sharp and faithful scripts. I figured if the grownups were in charge, the geographic and time challenges of the last two books would handled just as well.
 
That was a mistake. 
 
Instead of "Justice and vengeance, fire and blood!" we got "bad pussy." We got a sexed-up Ramsey and his 20 good men. We got a child burned by her father, a bride that was never there, a rape that apparently was in the planning when the actress was 14. We got Harryhausen skeketons that move at superhuman speed.
 
We got SHOCK, but we got little awe.
 
And now, we have the Fanboy Militant. 
 
Sigh. I need a drink.

Yeah, your post pretty much sums up my feelings as well. As to the paragraph in bold, I'll just say there's an awful lot we could add to that list, unfortunately.

I need a double.

[TepidHands]

We could make a drinking game out of this, like one shot if a well-loved story or line gets handed to another character, two if Tyrion does something saintly, etc. I'd say a shot for every time Olly nods, but my liver couldn't stand it!

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

We could make a drinking game out of this, like one shot if a well-loved story or line gets handed to another character, two if Tyrion does something saintly, etc. I'd say a shot for every time Olly nods, but my liver couldn't stand it!

Well, I do want to live by the end of the episode. 

[Annara Snow]

We could make a drinking game out of this, like one shot if a well-loved story or line gets handed to another character, two if Tyrion does something saintly, etc. I'd say a shot for every time Olly nods, but my liver couldn't stand it!

 

Sounds like Chebychov's Booksnob Bingo + drinking.

[kissdbyfire]

Well, I do want to live by the end of the episode.

:rofl:

How's that line Manderly says about 'eating excrement and praising the taste'?
I think of that line every time I read apologists and most critics/reviewers gushing praise on GoT.

[Toth]

I thought that was always considered to be played while drunk.

Wait, I always considered the show was considered to be watched while drunk.

How did anyone actually managed to watch it sober?