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Heresy 173


Black Crow

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So, as for me, I'm still utterly unconvinced we've seen the Others. And I see all the possibilties that GRRM can hit his readers upside the head with when they think they know all there is to know about them... No my friends, until we've seen those Ice Spiders, one would be a fool to discount the old 1993 letter. Half-forgotten Demons out of legend? Honestly Craster's Boys are a bit of joke.

Oh we've seen them and its quite clear from the prologue, from Old Nan's story and various other references right from the beginning that the white walkers are indeed Others. The point which some of us have been arguing and sometimes in different directions is that while they are Others they are not the one and only true and authentic Others. There is, as has been mentioned a theory of a hierarchy of Others. I don't believe it for a moment, but I do believe that the term Others is not confined to the walkers but encompasses all of Faerie, including the three-fingered tree-huggers.

As to the spiders its worth rememering there are only two references; in Old Nan's tale they are [only] as big as hounds, while Sam was frightened by bedtime tales way down south of their being big enough to ride on. There seems little doubt that their size, like many a fish grew in the telling in direct proportion to the distance and if we ever see them they are probably going to be quite small

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Are you convinced by theories?

If this came to be the case it would blow my mind.

im definitely not. might there be a hierarchy as in there is hierarchy among men? sure. but different species? i don't think there is much textual evidence for that. i think it would overly complicate things and to to be told at this point, those that we've called others are not others.......would just be wierd

yeah, basically for the same reasons as bc said. the prologue was clearly there to show us what we are up against.

the spiders. maybe someof them ride spiders, i dont think it will be that important to the plot. certainly not to the extent that only spider ridinging others are true others. (i saw that somewhere)

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Here I have to disagree [in different ways] with both with yourself and Addicted. I think, notwithstanding the other candidates shortly to be unveiled and discussed in Wolfmaid's upcoming mini-series, this is something which GRRM is trying hard to manage. As I understand GRRM has said its possible to work it out from what's in the first book, and so people have and so like Topsy R+L=J has "grewed" into a cult and arguably received GRRM's own primatur in the declaration that he won't change somehing because people have worked it out...

Fair enough, but whether or not R+L=J is true, or whether GRRM was being absolutely literal in saying that a very few people had worked out the answer from his "subtle" clues and a different equation has been in play from the beginning its important to note how low key the whole business appears in the synopsis and while GRRM may not be altering anything he certainly appears to be trying to manage the expectations of R+L=Jon Targaryen with things like the reveal about Viserys being named as heir to Aerys and even going back to Maester Aemon's declaration that "You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

Black Crow,

Is there a SSM in which GRRM states specifically that the identity of Jon's parents can be worked out from just AGOT?

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I have a recollection of him saying something to the effect that Jon Snow's mother could be figured out from the first book but I can't quote chapter and verse

IIRC it's a combination of SSMs, but mostly it's about how his editor worked it out while editing Book One.

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I have a recollection of him saying something to the effect that Jon Snow's mother could be figured out from the first book but I can't quote chapter and verse

Imagine how crazy it would be if it turned out Jon's mother is either Wylla or Ashara. And that Ashara or Wylla is still alive. And that it won't affect the story at all.

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Oh we've seen them and its quite clear from the prologue, from Old Nan's story and various other references right from the beginning that the white walkers are indeed Others. The point which some of us have been arguing and sometimes in different directions is that while they are Others they are not the one and only true and authentic Others. There is, as has been mentioned a theory of a hierarchy of Others. I don't believe it for a moment, but I do believe that the term Others is not confined to the walkers but encompasses all of Faerie, including the three-fingered tree-huggers.

As to the spiders its worth rememering there are only two references; in Old Nan's tale they are [only] as big as hounds, while Sam was frightened by bedtime tales way down south of their being big enough to ride on. There seems little doubt that their size, like many a fish grew in the telling in direct proportion to the distance and if we ever see them they are probably going to be quite small

Agreed--we've seen them. Just are still having to figure them out. Only limited info--that's the mystery.

Spiders? Maybe--but if exist and if small, now have very silly scene in my head whereby humans are trying to step on the spiders while fighting off the wights. Though that might make up for the wights' apparently sluggishness.

I have a recollection of him saying something to the effect that Jon Snow's mother could be figured out from the first book but I can't quote chapter and verse

IIRC it's a combination of SSMs, but mostly it's about how his editor worked it out while editing Book One.

This is my recollection as well. Though how we're supposed to figure out an objective standard for "ease of figuring out" with any idea in the book is beyond me. Everyone reads differently. Could be easy. Could be hard. Where it may be going--the implications--that seems like the interesting part (in my completely objective opinion).

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This i fear is what will happen which will make it even worse.Something occured to me when re-reading Jon's experiance on the Skirling Pass.Jon was able to identify the Bran because the Weirwood tree because had Bran's face but at first when he heard the voice he was looking for a lean grey shape (Summer).Bran ofcourse recalls touching Ghost.So i'm thinking something could happen where they can't recognize eaxh other e.g Let's say if either or begins to lose themselves.

Agree--even though it scares me. Am thus hoping the proposed title "A Time for Wolves" is suggestive in their case. They remember their pack--as their wolves remember their pack--and remember their Starkness. Could make it easier to recognize each other.

Bu I am encouraged by the fact the Jon recognized Bran-as-tree--despite his confusion. Suggests the potential future confusion can be overcome.

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Agree--even though it scares me. Am thus hoping the proposed title "A Time for Wolves" is suggestive in their case. They remember their pack--as their wolves remember their pack--and remember their Starkness. Could make it easier to recognize each other.

Quite, they [including Jon] are wolves not dragons.

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Oh we've seen them and its quite clear from the prologue, from Old Nan's story and various other references right from the beginning that the white walkers are indeed Others. The point which some of us have been arguing and sometimes in different directions is that while they are Others they are not the one and only true and authentic Others. There is, as has been mentioned a theory of a hierarchy of Others. I don't believe it for a moment, but I do believe that the term Others is not confined to the walkers but encompasses all of Faerie, including the three-fingered tree-huggers.

As to the spiders its worth rememering there are only two references; in Old Nan's tale they are [only] as big as hounds, while Sam was frightened by bedtime tales way down south of their being big enough to ride on. There seems little doubt that their size, like many a fish grew in the telling in direct proportion to the distance and if we ever see them they are probably going to be quite small

I have always wondered why they are called "Others". One should assume it only means "those who are not men" yet it would mean that giants, singers and whatever is not human is an "Other". Other thought would be they are just called others because people would fear them so much that calling their names was a taboo, it is cliched those days but it wasn't when he started to write.

Then there is the term Neverborn. It literally means they are not born, of course, but that also means... they are not an "organic" race like the men, giants or children. Yet we know they are not dead, but a different form of life. Not a mindless one, of course, but elegant and beautiful, inhuman. With intelligence.

But it is just a thought...

By the way, aren't comets supposed to mean dragons? If so, couldn't the heart of a fallen one (well, it obviously is not a comet but it is not like the Westerosi would make much of a distinction either) could be counted as dragonsteel? What if we make a sword out of it, white as milk? Better, lets stick it in some ice demons.

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I have always wondered why they are called "Others". One should assume it only means "those who are not men" yet it would mean that giants, singers and whatever is not human is an "Other". Other thought would be they are just called others because people would fear them so much that calling their names was a taboo, it is cliched those days but it wasn't when he started to write.

Then there is the term Neverborn. It literally means they are not born, of course, but that also means... they are not an "organic" race like the men, giants or children. Yet we know they are not dead, but a different form of life. Not a mindless one, of course, but elegant and beautiful, inhuman. With intelligence.

But it is just a thought...

I'd been thinking the fact the the Others are called Others is a nod to their possibly being transformed humans. Craster's boys. Night King's sacrifices. Makes "Others"--not Children or of giants--"Other" than human. Because came from human. Not born from human but transformed from it. And still intelligent.

But that's just a guess re: your just a thought.

By the way, aren't comets supposed to mean dragons? If so, couldn't the heart of a fallen one (well, it obviously is not a comet but it is not like the Westerosi would make much of a distinction either) could be counted as dragonsteel? What if we make a sword out of it, white as milk? Better, lets stick it in some ice demons.

Can't see why not. One of the reasons I think Dawn gets brought up--could be the key weapon. White as milkglass to melt the milkglass bones of Others. Also one of the reasons I can't quite buy a dragon as potential "Lightbringer" or solution to the whole mess. Seems like the sword is more of a key--though why I don't know.

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Oh we've seen them and its quite clear from the prologue, from Old Nan's story and various other references right from the beginning that the white walkers are indeed Others. The point which some of us have been arguing and sometimes in different directions is that while they are Others they are not the one and only true and authentic Others. There is, as has been mentioned a theory of a hierarchy of Others. I don't believe it for a moment, but I do believe that the term Others is not confined to the walkers but encompasses all of Faerie, including the three-fingered tree-huggers.

As to the spiders its worth rememering there are only two references; in Old Nan's tale they are [only] as big as hounds, while Sam was frightened by bedtime tales way down south of their being big enough to ride on. There seems little doubt that their size, like many a fish grew in the telling in direct proportion to the distance and if we ever see them they are probably going to be quite small

You're position is hard to find serious fault in but there's still a few nagging things that makes me think there's more to the Others (and not just talking about Cave Gremlins which I agree with you are in league with Great Cold Ones).

My main and only real contribution to ASOIAF theory though, pretty much relies on there being a third thing (Wights > Walkers > ?), that is that the black pool in the Winterfell Godwood can be used to access a tunnel system that goes all the way to the Heart of Winter, and that the lady Bran sees in his tree vision who is visibly pregnant is carrying an Other-baby or some type of Fae-baby, and upon her return from her long journey immediately petitions the Old Gods for a son who will avenge her because that is exactly who you would want to petition in the case you intentionally want an Other/Fae baby. Now I don't believe this nameless woman is the last person to put to use this Stark Family Secret, which is one of the reasons I think Martin shows it to us.

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I have always wondered why they are called "Others". One should assume it only means "those who are not men" yet it would mean that giants, singers and whatever is not human is an "Other".

That's very much the way I'm inclined to see it these days. There is perhaps a political element in that not all Others may be enemies, but all enemies are Others and they are Others because they're not the Thenns or the Flints or the Starks or Uncle Tom Cobbley but something else, not men.

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You're position is hard to find serious fault in but there's still a few nagging things that makes me think there's more to the Others (and not just talking about Cave Gremlins which I agree with you are in league with Great Cold Ones).

My main and only real contribution to ASOIAF theory though, pretty much relies on there being a third thing (Wights > Walkers > ?), that is that the black pool in the Winterfell Godwood can be used to access a tunnel system that goes all the way to the Heart of Winter, and that the lady Bran sees in his tree vision who is visibly pregnant is carrying an Other-baby or some type of Fae-baby, and upon her return from her long journey immediately petitions the Old Gods for a son who will avenge her because that is exactly who you would want to petition in the case you intentionally want an Other/Fae baby. Now I don't believe this nameless woman is the last person to put to use this Stark Family Secret, which is one of the reasons I think Martin shows it to us.

There is a perfectly respectable theory out there that particular vision will be explained in the as yet unpublished She-Wolves of Winterfell although opinion is divided as to whether it has been held back because it contains spoilers, or whether its simply been pushed to one side while he gets his head down on WoW.

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There is a perfectly respectable theory out there that particular vision will be explained in the as yet unpublished She-Wolves of Winterfell although opinion is divided as to whether it has been held back because it contains spoilers, or whether its simply been pushed to one side while he gets his head down on WoW.

There's defintely something strange that seems to be going on with Stark women.

Also Black Crow, I'm curious that you don't seem averse at all to using GRRM's old letters to augment your theories, yet you're so sure that Martin has scrapped the three tiered Other heirarchy he detailed in 1993? I simply choose to remain open to the idea that GRRM hasn't scapped that idea.

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There's defintely something strange that seems to be going on with Stark women.

Also Black Crow, I'm curious that you don't seem averse at all to using GRRM's old letters to augment your theories, yet you're so sure that Martin has scrapped the three tiered Other heirarchy he detailed in 1993? I simply choose to remain open to the idea that GRRM hasn't scapped that idea.

it sounds a lot more like creepy imagery than an established hierarchy

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Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.



Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.






I am wondering, it is obvious GRRM first intended Bran and Arya to become a siblings-in-arms, Bran with magic (Bran the Sorceror?) and Arya with skill at arms. He obviously kept the trend to both, sort of as Arya is not a knight but an assassin, but they are now far apart from each other. Anyway, the thing is: he first devised of magic as something you can actually use for combat. Yet, it strikes me as really odd. Why would he take Bran and Arya (now only Bran) North of the Wall? Apparently Bran will become versed in magic but... it is just... it could have been anywhere, one of the free cities. There must be something more... if he didn't change the initial content much, it means he was taking Bran to the Heart of Winter. Will we still see it?



By the way, Catelyn was intended to fall to the Others, which means she would rise as wight. It sounds to me he was planning her return since the beginning, and according to his comments about the mummers' play, he still has a role. I always knew that, I am just more curious to what it turns to be.


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You're position is hard to find serious fault in but there's still a few nagging things that makes me think there's more to the Others (and not just talking about Cave Gremlins which I agree with you are in league with Great Cold Ones).

My main and only real contribution to ASOIAF theory though, pretty much relies on there being a third thing (Wights > Walkers > ?), that is that the black pool in the Winterfell Godwood can be used to access a tunnel system that goes all the way to the Heart of Winter, and that the lady Bran sees in his tree vision who is visibly pregnant is carrying an Other-baby or some type of Fae-baby, and upon her return from her long journey immediately petitions the Old Gods for a son who will avenge her because that is exactly who you would want to petition in the case you intentionally want an Other/Fae baby. Now I don't believe this nameless woman is the last person to put to use this Stark Family Secret, which is one of the reasons I think Martin shows it to us.

:cheers:

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Agree--even though it scares me. Am thus hoping the proposed title "A Time for Wolves" is suggestive in their case. They remember their pack--as their wolves remember their pack--and remember their Starkness. Could make it easier to recognize each other.

Bu I am encouraged by the fact the Jon recognized Bran-as-tree--despite his confusion. Suggests the potential future confusion can be overcome.

Oh i definitely think the individual members of the pack will find or should i say reaffirm themselves as pack mates.However,i think for the moment they'll be hunting alone and getting themselves into some tight situations.Sometimes even going off the path,but i agree i think they'll find themselves and each other eventually.

I have always wondered why they are called "Others". One should assume it only means "those who are not men" yet it would mean that giants, singers and whatever is not human is an "Other". Other thought would be they are just called others because people would fear them so much that calling their names was a taboo, it is cliched those days but it wasn't when he started to write.

Then there is the term Neverborn. It literally means they are not born, of course, but that also means... they are not an "organic" race like the men, giants or children. Yet we know they are not dead, but a different form of life. Not a mindless one, of course, but elegant and beautiful, inhuman. With intelligence.

But it is just a thought...

By the way, aren't comets supposed to mean dragons? If so, couldn't the heart of a fallen one (well, it obviously is not a comet but it is not like the Westerosi would make much of a distinction either) could be counted as dragonsteel? What if we make a sword out of it, white as milk? Better, lets stick it in some ice demons.

This is a very interesting questions and it may stem from the idea that of labeling something we can't understand externally.Making it as far away from us as we can.I get this every time i call into rememberance Qhorin's statement "The trees have eyes again," then thinking to my self those eyes are human eyes.Hence my theory that despite how alien people make the Others in the end it will turn out that they are extraordinary humans.

Westeros says Others i say greenseers and all the weird crap their up to.

There is a perfectly respectable theory out there that particular vision will be explained in the as yet unpublished She-Wolves of Winterfell although opinion is divided as to whether it has been held back because it contains spoilers, or whether its simply been pushed to one side while he gets his head down on WoW.

When is this suppose to come out? We've been hearing about this for a while now.

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