Why do people say it is the books fault season 5 was bad?

[Pyat>Daenerys]

I've seen a lot of people say that books 4 and 5 were bad, thus D&D had a tough job ahead of them. They say D&D have done the best they could, but with how bad the books were you can't blame them.

But I have a few issues with this. If the books are bad or not, D&D have clearly demonstrated they are willing to write what could be called fanfiction. For example the Dorne and Sansa storyline. Both have pretty contrived logic to make events unfold, and neither of those storylines resembles the actual books.

So, if what is widely considered as the worst part of the show (Dorne) hasn't even happened in the books, how is it the books fault it is bad? If the books were truly so bad and would make for poor TV, D&D had all the power to change it into something better. They tried and failed. Sansa's arc in WF isn't that different from the books even. She hardly does anything in the Vale in book 5, and she doesn't do anything in WF either. Am I to believe getting raped and brutalized makes for better TV? I think not. Her Vale arc could actually have some character development and a more natural progression.

D&D know what will happen in the future. For example the burning of Shireen, battle of Winterfell. They have surpassed the books already at these events. So... if books 4 and 5 were bad, why not skip more of them? They have knowledge of events to happen. They could make more contrived situations to arrive at those interesting points sooner. Not only they didn't do this, the show original plot of Dorne almost feels like filler. And even though they have already surpassed the books with a few scenes, the casting information tells us they will include Euron. So instead of rushing through these two awful books they are backtracking to them? Why not scrap Dorne and have Euron instead? Then you are done with these shitty books sooner.

It looks to me as though D&D were afraid of passing the books. Afrad of writing their own material and just stalling for time. In the end, I just wanted to say that even if books 4 and 5 are unredeemable piles of garbage, the show had all the opportunity to make it better. They failed, and it's not the fault of the books. So I think it's silly to blame AFfC and ADwD for the failings of the show.

[Primalsplit]

I definitely agree. They seem to be stalling as much as they can. I have some guesses as to why, but in the end they are just speculations. They try to stay within the book territory but then again they are passing a lot of material from them as well.

It's all very confusing. What are their strategy? Wait for Martin to develop as much of story as possible, so they will have a basic structure to follow... but then completely change all the content with their fanfic-like version? I don't attribute this strategy to malice as well, but in the end it they know they are bad writers but still want to write over many parts? Eh... it's mind boggling.

[ShadowKitteh]

I loved season 5, and I think D&D are brilliant writers considering they've adapted views from inside character's HEADS into a playable plot (they can actually afford to shoot), that an audience can follow that is NOT inside a character's head.

Until you've actually written an adapted screenplay for a visual medium, I think you might not have a basis for your judgement.

Seriously. If you're a giant book fan and think D&D suck, do it better. Even ONE episode. Start with books 4 & 5. No, you can't use any of the show's actual scripts or even outlines. Start from scratch.

It's very cavalier to whine about how they've had to change the story, and as much as you hate the changes, it doesn't make them bad writers with one of the top shows on TV currently working on it's 6th season, and the No. 1 pay channel on the planet begging them for more than 7 seasons.

The industry and millions of viewers disagree with you.

[The Jomsviking]

It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, in the end you still have a turd. Books 4 and 5 are comparitively just not that good. It is very obvious to all but the most devoted of his fans that Martin has lost almost all interest in writing this series. So you have the show creators - and of course there are many, many more of them than just D&D - who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They have many options, none of which are that great:

1. Blow past two entire books, just barely touching on the plot

2. Re-write them to make them more entertaining

3. Ignore them entirely

4. Present them faithfully, almost certainly losing television fans and potentially funding for finishing the series

5. Do a little bit of each, make everyone just a bit mad but minimize damage <-- this is what I think they are attempting to do

I definitely don't envy them. Any halfway competent TV director can film scenes like the Red Wedding and make it entertaining. What in the world are you to do with settings like Mereen, with dozens of incomprehensible names, a sluggish plot, bizarre character actions, and tenuous connection (at best) with the rest of the story? And god help you if you remove / edit ANY of it, because then you'll have "fans" screaming bloody murder over your decisions.

[ShadowKitteh]

It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, in the end you still have a turd. Books 4 and 5 are comparitively just not that good. It is very obvious to all but the most devoted of his fans that Martin has lost almost all interest in writing this series. So you have the show creators - and of course there are many, many more of them than just D&D - who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They have many options, none of which are that great:

1. Blow past two entire books, just barely touching on the plot

2. Re-write them to make them more entertaining

3. Ignore them entirely

4. Present them faithfully, almost certainly losing television fans and potentially funding for finishing the series

5. Do a little bit of each, make everyone just a bit mad but minimize damage <-- this is what I think they are attempting to do

I definitely don't envy them. Any halfway competent TV director can film scenes like the Red Wedding and make it entertaining. What in the world are you to do with settings like Mereen, with dozens of incomprehensible names, a sluggish plot, bizarre character actions, and tenuous connection (at best) with the rest of the story? And god help you if you remove / edit ANY of it, because then you'll have "fans" screaming bloody murder over your decisions.

:agree:

[Khal Boner]

Season 5 was very far from bad but the books were more difficult to adapt for tv because nothing very much happens in the way of plot progression, a host of new characters and story lines appear and generally events in Westeros and Mereen are put on hold.

[Khorkalba]

Firstly, I think people who say that books 4 and 5 are bad have very poor taste. Book 4 in particular is the best GRRM has written in my opinion.

Secondly, the awful fanfiction writing on the TV show didn't start with season 5. I actually consider season 4 to be even more appalling than season 5, and that season was largely based on the 3rd book.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

I loved season 5, and I think D&D are brilliant writers considering they've adapted views from inside character's HEADS into a playable plot (they can actually afford to shoot), that an audience can follow that is NOT inside a character's head.

Until you've actually written an adapted screenplay for a visual medium, I think you might not have a basis for your judgement.

Seriously. If you're a giant book fan and think D&D suck, do it better. Even ONE episode. Start with books 4 & 5. No, you can't use any of the show's actual scripts or even outlines. Start from scratch.

It's very cavalier to whine about how they've had to change the story, and as much as you hate the changes, it doesn't make them bad writers with one of the top shows on TV currently working on it's 6th season, and the No. 1 pay channel on the planet begging them for more than 7 seasons.

The industry and millions of viewers disagree with you.

This has literally nothing to do with what I've posted.

It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, in the end you still have a turd. Books 4 and 5 are comparitively just not that good. It is very obvious to all but the most devoted of his fans that Martin has lost almost all interest in writing this series. So you have the show creators - and of course there are many, many more of them than just D&D - who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They have many options, none of which are that great:

1. Blow past two entire books, just barely touching on the plot

2. Re-write them to make them more entertaining

3. Ignore them entirely

4. Present them faithfully, almost certainly losing television fans and potentially funding for finishing the series

5. Do a little bit of each, make everyone just a bit mad but minimize damage <-- this is what I think they are attempting to do

I definitely don't envy them. Any halfway competent TV director can film scenes like the Red Wedding and make it entertaining. What in the world are you to do with settings like Mereen, with dozens of incomprehensible names, a sluggish plot, bizarre character actions, and tenuous connection (at best) with the rest of the story? And god help you if you remove / edit ANY of it, because then you'll have "fans" screaming bloody murder over your decisions.

Only they didn't polish it. Like I've said in the thread, they've cut Jaime's entire storyline with fanfiction. Why not do the same for Daenerys if the material is so bad? Show us that talent of theirs.

[Khal Boner]

Only they didn't polish it. Like I've said in the thread, they've cut Jaime's entire storyline with fanfiction. Why not do the same for Daenerys if the material is so bad? Show us that talent of theirs.

So it's just another hate thread. Jaime's storyline was boring in AFFC. Would make terrible tv. The show wasn't any better though I admit. Fails all round.

[ShadowKitteh]

This has literally nothing to do with what I've posted.

It literally has everything to do with what you posted. You posted about D&D adapting the script from the original source material and posted ways you'd have done it differently, and I pointed out that it's harder to do than you can ever imagine, and called you out to do it better.

[Primalsplit]

I think problem also stems from the difference between the books. 4th and 5th books are different compared to earlier ones. They are much more diverse in terms of characters and plots. It goes with a different method somehow. Like them or dislike them, this is something that should be considered in an adaptation.

The way I see it, D&D are enamoured by the first 3 books mainly. They adapted them well, I'll give you that. Though in season 4, increased sexism and deviations were beginning to be worrysome but that's another matter of debate. Imo, what they should have done was to trust in their audience and succesfully go through a similar change. This doesn't mean to go over every sub-plot and cast side characters. What it means is, do what books 4 and 5 did. Put the themes in the centre of the story. Explore them the way the books did. Dany and Jon going through difficulties in ruling. If being a good person equates to being a good ruler or not. Tyrion hitting the rock bottom. Sansa learning the game, but also sticking to her ideas of being a loved queen rather than feared. Quentyn, Brienne and Jaime exploring the horrors of war; what Fire and Blood (cutting quentyn is OK!). Dorne... And vica versa... Also utilising the budget more on actors, seperate filming crews might have been a better idea. I like zombies, dragons and such but I'd prefer a richer story.

The way I see it, they failed to adapt. No! They didn't even consider to adapt. Instead they tried to play the same old trick of shocks, brawls and boobs. They should have played to the strengths of books. It would have been a calmer paced season. Attention to calmer... not slow or boring. Setting the story for an ACT II is what those books do and I don't think there's much wrong with it. It makes more sense from a strategical viewpoint to sacrifice some tempo and casualness from this season to make it explode in later seasons.

That is to say, this season was already boring and with full of filler. This is just extra incompetence on their part. This has less to do with strategy and more to do with writing skills.

[Tolsimir]

Firstly, I think people who say that books 4 and 5 are bad have very poor taste. Book 4 in particular is the best GRRM has written in my opinion.

:agree:

As for the OP. It is obvious to everyone that the quality of the show has dropped. Even people who still enjoy the show and think it's the best thing ever didn't like Dorne. They just don't want to accept that this thing they like sucks, so excuses are made and scapegoats are searched for. One of these scapegoats are the books. Which is funny, because the show had almost nothing to do with the books this season. Yet people still insist it's somehow AFfC's and ADwD's fault.

[The Jomsviking]

Firstly, I think people who say that books 4 and 5 are bad have very poor taste. Book 4 in particular is the best GRRM has written in my opinion.

And you are perfectly welcome to that opinion. You should also acknowledge that this places you firmly in the minority of his fans and professional critics, most of which have acknowledged a significant drop in the series over the last decade (!). Frankly the amount of time it took him to even bang these books out should be proof that much of the magic is gone. But that aside - if you're starting position is 'the world is wrong, and I am right' then you need to be prepared to be continually disappointed by a TV series made with a mass audience in mind.

Again, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong. Everyone has their own particular taste and what is entertaining or rewarding to one person can fall flat for someone else. But a mature reader must recognize that when their taste is in the decided minority, they will not often be pleased by products prepared for general reception.

[ShadowKitteh]

:agree:

As for the OP. It is obvious to everyone that the quality of the show has dropped. Even people who still enjoy the show and think it's the best thing ever didn't like Dorne. They just don't want to accept that this thing they like sucks, so excuses are made and scapegoats are searched for. One of these scapegoats are the books. Which is funny, because the show had almost nothing to do with the books this season. Yet people still insist it's somehow AFfC's and ADwD's fault.

"Everyone"

Really?

You don't speak for anyone except yourself, and you certainly don't speak for me. It doesn't "suck" to me, and is still the best thing on TV to me, and I don't think the quality of the show has dropped at all. In fact, Hardhome was one of the best sequences I've seen in film, let alone television.

I get that you don't like it. Fine. Many people agree with you. Also fine. But attempting to garner universal mob-mentality status on this smells of desperation.

I'm curious, what do you hope to gain by attempting to speak for "everyone"?

[apovsic]

You should also acknowledge that this places you firmly in the minority of his fans and professional critics, most of which have acknowledged a significant drop in the series over the last decade (!).

Where are you getting this info of significant drop from? I know that general opinion is that there is a drop, but it like from 5* do 4*, not from a 5* do turd (if I use your analogy from firs post).

[Pyat>Daenerys]

It literally has everything to do with what you posted. You posted about D&D adapting the script from the original source material and posted ways you'd have done it differently, and I pointed out that it's harder to do than you can ever imagine, and called you out to do it better.

Saying ''Do it better or stfu'' is no argument at all. If I had the HBO money or they'd hire me sure, but there's really nothing I can do about it can I? And by this logic, it was hard for Martin to write the books too. So unless you'd do it better stop blaming the books!

[Tolsimir]

"Everyone"

Really?

You don't speak for anyone except yourself, and you certainly don't speak for me. It doesn't "suck" to me, and is still the best thing on TV to me, and I don't think the quality of the show has dropped at all. In fact, Hardhome was one of the best sequences I've seen in film, let alone television.

I get that you don't like it. Fine. Many people agree with you. Also fine. But attempting to garner universal mob-mentality status on this smells of desperation.

I'm curious, what do you hope to gain by attempting to speak for "everyone"?

Dorne doesn't suck to you? A storyline with no logic and terible action scenes is good to someone?

And by everyone I simply meant that if everyone agrees that Dorne sucked (which they do, from my experience), then it is obvious that the quality has dropped. There was no such backlash for any storyline in the past seasons. People were even defending the stupid scene at the moon-gates last season, but nobody steps up for Dorne.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

"Everyone"

Really?

You don't speak for anyone except yourself, and you certainly don't speak for me. It doesn't "suck" to me, and is still the best thing on TV to me, and I don't think the quality of the show has dropped at all. In fact, Hardhome was one of the best sequences I've seen in film, let alone television.

I get that you don't like it. Fine. Many people agree with you. Also fine. But attempting to garner universal mob-mentality status on this smells of desperation.

I'm curious, what do you hope to gain by attempting to speak for "everyone"?

Spot on. 99% of people still love the show. It's the people who are most passionate about the book series who now claim that the show is terrible (and of course this is occurring at the point when the show is starting to make huge diversions from the book).

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

Dorne doesn't suck to you? A storyline with no logic and terible action scenes is good to someone?

And by everyone I simply meant that if everyone agrees that Dorne sucked (which they do, from my experience), then it is obvious that the quality has dropped. There was no such backlash for any storyline in the past seasons. People were even defending the stupid scene at the moon-gates last season, but nobody steps up for Dorne.

I didn't mind Dorne at all either and I think people go overboard in their criticism for it.

[ShadowKitteh]

Dorne doesn't suck to you? A storyline with no logic and terible action scenes is good to someone?

And by everyone I simply meant that if everyone agrees that Dorne sucked (which they do, from my experience), then it is obvious that the quality has dropped. There was no such backlash for any storyline in the past seasons. People were even defending the stupid scene at the moon-gates last season, but nobody steps up for Dorne.

No, Dorne didn't "suck" to me. Would I like MORE Dorne? Yes, but when you take the overall arc of the show, it's not a very big part of the story compared with everything else, and I'm thankful we got it at all.

I also thought the change to "Your Sister." made a lot more sense, and was waaaay more personal than, "Only Cat." to the show audience.

But then I don't think it's cool and fashionable to hate on D&D and the show, or to compare the books to the show (and please stop accusing everyone who doesn't share your views with "blaming the books.")