what if Snow is really, permanently dead?

[Gomagoti]

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but what if Jon Snow is actually, properly, permanently dead? we have a million theories and reasons about why he should live, and I certainly do not argue that his story arc seems to be central within the entire series. But what if he were dead; where would this take the tale in general? interested in people's hypotheses.

[ErasmusF]

That's a great question. I'll state a couple of things in preface to my answer. I think we've been assured that there will be a Stark in Winterfell at the end of the story. I would also say that it's pretty much a done deal that R+L=J, at least in my view.

1. It would place a huge new emphasis on Dany getting to Westeros and battling the White Walkers. I am a Dany hater and I think it would be a lot cooler to have Dany face off against Jon at the end of the story. Or maybe Dany gets a redemption arc where she realizes governing is tough and change is slow.

2. It might mean that the Davos scene with Manderly takes on added significance. It could mean that Rickon needs to come back an reign holy hell on the Boltons as only a pissed kid with an army of purported cannibals can do. That would be fun.

3. Recently, I've gotten kind of sick of the Jon Snow must be the hero theories, and I would love to see Sansa being the Stark in Winterfell. There is a bit of foreshadowing to suggest that she will be the one who regains Winterfell for the family.

4. We also pretty much know that Arya is going to come back to the North, and that might have something to do with avenging Jon.

5. Jon being dead also frees Martin up to play with the R+L=J theory in interesting ways. One thing I have been thinking about is what if Azor Ahai and the Prince that Was Promised are symbols rather than real people. What if Jon's secret is revealed post-mortem, let's say because Sansa discovers it in the crypts and uses it to coalesce the Grand Northern Conspirators with the Wildlings to make a claim on the Iron Throne. Or to reach out to Dany to make peace between the houses of Ice and Fire? That might be the dumbest of the possibilities - if this is the case I am sure GRRM has some really good ideas for how this will impact the story.

6. Whatever happens, I think it's pretty much assured that the Wildlings are going to go apeshit on the remaining NW. Alys Karstark will probably get her new husband all ginned up to maintain order in the North, and behead all the conspirators. That may be the end of the NW and unwittingly, possibly the Wall itself.

7. I do think even if he is "dead" he will live on as a warg in Ghost, and that would allow Ghost to take on a Nymeria-like role in WoW. That would be fun. I wonder if a direwolf can kill a white walker?

Getting back to #1 and #2, I would love to see Rickon face off against Dany at the end. If Dany is going to take out the WWs, then I would love to see Rickon Stark make some weirwood arrows and bring balance back to the world by killing the remaining dragons, then telling Dany the Iron Throne is hers but he is the King in the North.

I hope it's not the case. I hope Jon comes back somehow. GRRM has confirmed he's not dead at the beginning of WoW. That doesn't mean he'll come back.

[Winterbowl]

I'd be shocked if Jon is truly dead (in a VERY good way though). I think GRRM is gonna bring him back to claim his destiny though. Jon has some dark roads to walk.

[Gomagoti]

I too would be shocked, however what turn(s) would hypothetically ocur in the series if it were so?

Erasmus I agree bout Dany's arc becoming more important. As far as the Starks go, I think Bran & Arya's arcs also come to the fore if he dies, and maybe we see more of Rickon. As the 2 remaining Starks with a) the closest ties to Jon and b)the most in terms of new powers, they (Arya & Bran) both stand to be greatly affected by and in a position to exact revenge for his murder. However I don't see Bran ever physically leaving that tree, and Arya is tied to a path of eternal revenge; I do not see either becoming the Master/Mistress of Winterfell. Until we know more about the Harry the Heir arc I don't really know what to think about Sansa.

Whilst I am a believer in R+L=J, and I think a posthumous reveal would be bittersweet, I don't see how R+L=J could lead to anything solid in terms of power for Jon anyways.I think it only comes to play if he is the one in one of the prophecies (AA, PtwP, take your pick). So if he is dead, the prophecy will either fail and Westeros is in for a tough time, or a combination of other people/events will step into the void to fulfil it. In terms of the fight with the White Walkers, the rest of the night's watch are ill equipped and have lost Wildling support without Jon, so I think (hope) the WW will breach the wall in the next book,which takes the defence of Westeros to (most likely) Winterfell. It is not inconcivable that we see the remaining Stark's rally there, plus whatever is in the crypts plus Dany when she finally makes it onto these shores, for the final battle.

Any hypotheses about what happens with the religious war upon Jon's demise?(R'hllor vs Seven vs Faceless Gods vs Old Gods?)

[alienarea]

Honestly, I would prefer that.

I'm not a religious person, but mortal people aren't supposed to get resurrected IMHO.

I don't care about R+L either, so burn his body and be done with him.

I have had a theory that Sansa will be the only surviving Stark because Lady got killed, and the bittersweet ending will be Sansa and the direwolves of her dead siblings regrouping in Winterfell.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I really like Jon i was a huge supporter of him coming back to life or clinging on to his live but after season 5 it's starting to look pretty certain that he's not coming back....sadly. Sometimes i found his chapters a little boring and himself a little melancholy but he was a good guy. He spent his life in Winterfel in more comfort than many bastards and other characters but being so close but not be apart of would have been hard. He tried hard to live his life with honor and be the best man he could be and do the best for his men, he faced opposition for everything he tried to do.

His death will spark a war on the wall, The innocent black brothers will blame the wildlings who will intern blame the black brothers, a fight will ensue the wall will be lost and the Others will come..

[Lord Ravenstark]

Personally, I think his story is good the way it ended in ADOD. I wouldn't mind if he is actually dead for real.

[ErasmusF]

I have had a theory that Sansa will be the only surviving Stark because Lady got killed, and the bittersweet ending will be Sansa and the direwolves of her dead siblings regrouping in Winterfell.

Good point. I too favor Sansa if that's the end of Jon.

[Logicsbane]

Its almost too crazy to consider...but who knows? If John is dead and not coming back then his story isn't really his story, it's simply the Story about the Wildlings and the others, nothing more, IMO.

Personally I don't believe that, but sometimes I wonder if we have speculated and Theorized so much that we have convinced ourselves that the popular theories are canon. Like r+ L = J, for example. What if it isn't ? I'm sure it is , but what if?

[Gomagoti]

I really like Jon i was a huge supporter of him coming back to life or clinging on to his live but after season 5 it's starting to look pretty certain that he's not coming back....sadly. Sometimes i found his chapters a little boring and himself a little melancholy but he was a good guy. He spent his life in Winterfel in more comfort than many bastards and other characters but being so close but not be apart of would have been hard. He tried hard to live his life with honor and be the best man he could be and do the best for his men, he faced opposition for everything he tried to do.

His death will spark a war on the wall, The innocent black brothers will blame the wildlings who will intern blame the black brothers, a fight will ensue the wall will be lost and the Others will come..

I'd say this is almost a sure bet even if he is resurrected - the wall will probably fall, the Others will most certainly come.

Those who see Sansa as the ultimate ruler of Winterfell, I'd like to ask why her and not one of the others? Do you see her having a bigger role in the defence of Westeros against the WWs, as well as being the Stark in Winterfell?

What do you think will happen with Dany? It seems inevitable that she and her dragons are the 'Fire' that needs to meet the WW, but then are the WW themselves the "Ice" in the song?

If Jon was the "Ice" what happens to the song without him? who takes that role?

Who will exact revenge/justice on Ramsay if not Jon: Sansa & Harry?Arya?Rickon?Bran?

What (if anything) happens due to Rob's letter legitimising him?

What (if anything) impact on Mel, who kept seeing him in her visions?

And Ghost, do you think the Night's Watch will be able to get close enough to kill him? If Ghost survives but Jon is dead dead, what does this mean (if anything? )

[vrso]

Jon won't immediately come back to life, so I bet a fight breaks out between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings. Selyse's men try to stop the chaos. That is unlikely to work out.

Anyway, if there's a fight between the three above-mentioned factions, it'd be up to Melisandre to either arrange peace or ressurrect Jon so he can do it.

If Melisandre doesn't bring Jon back, then I guess his body stays forgotten long enough during the chaos for him to become a wight.

After that, I don't know what might happen. Could Jon skinchange from Ghost to his undead body?

[ErasmusF]

Those who see Sansa as the ultimate ruler of Winterfell, I'd like to ask why her and not one of the others? Do you see her having a bigger role in the defence of Westeros against the WWs, as well as being the Stark in Winterfell?

If Jon was the "Ice" what happens to the song without him? who takes that role?

Who will exact revenge/justice on Ramsay if not Jon: Sansa & Harry?Arya?Rickon?Bran?

What (if anything) happens due to Rob's letter legitimising him?

What (if anything) impact on Mel, who kept seeing him in her visions?

And Ghost, do you think the Night's Watch will be able to get close enough to kill him? If Ghost survives but Jon is dead dead, what does this mean (if anything? )

Quoted only the parts I wanted to answer.

Why not Sansa? It almost assuredly won't be Arya, as we have the prophecy that she will be dead at the end of the series. It won't be Bran. Rickon may have some role to play, and may ultimately succeed Sansa as the Lord of Winterfell, but not by the time the series is over. I see her as a likely steward for Rickon. She will evolve into a She-Wolf, which is way more interesting than Jon marching south as a resurrected avenger.

Jon's death becomes symbolic. Ice dies, the Wall holding back Winter comes down. Fire comes to battle Winter. Fire dies battling Winter back.

I favor Manderly and the GNC avenging Robb. I suspect when all is said and done a Manderly will sit at the Twins.

I suspect nothing will happen with Robb's letter. It's not a Red Herring. Just a minor detail.

Mel is in the midst of a redemption arc. She will go down fighting Winter.

Jon may "live on" in Ghost but I am assuming no one counts that as him being resurrected as a POV character. I suspect that we'll lose his POV. Ghost will be a Nymeria like character and maybe be able to give Bran important information through the Weirnet.

[Whitering]

Put me on board with those that hope he's dead and stays that way in Warg form, maybe.

I waffle on this though, so it's not like I have strong feelings about it, but I just would rather it continue with the Ned dead is dead theme.

I would guess that if Jon is totally, dead and maybe if he is not and resurrected by Mel, that the Watch is toast anyway. I wonder if the Wildlings can maintain the order necessary realizing that killing the men of the Watch will be counter productive to fighting the Others, but maybe they won't be able to restrain themselves. Mace was the King Beyond the Wall, but Jon was the King Inside the Wall.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I'd be personally disappointed if he was dead but it'd be worth it to come on the forums and watch peoples reaction

[WhitewolfStark]

I've posted this on several other of these types of threads, might as well repeat it here. Although, I will say I've gotten quicker each time at typing it:

I've lately gotten interested in the book series Martin calls "the original game of thrones" in his forward to the English translation of, Les Rois Maudits (aka The Accursed Kings). It's a book series about how France goes from the Medieval superpower and powerhouse with a strong military, strong monarchy and secure dynasty (the Capets), it's so powerful they've even forced the Pope to move to France and influence the elections of said Pope. To how it becomes a ripe plumb for the English to pluck and war with for a hundred years of on again and off again warfare. Essentially the lead-up to the Hundred Years War. And it all comes down in the novels to two people playing the "game of thrones" and slowly killing more and more of the royal family off or manipulating them to squabble amongst each other and their sworn lords that, they run France right into the ground. And what got them into this mess? This constant back and forth of treachery, backstabbing, murder, betrayal, and intrigue.

Les Rois Maudits isn't a love letter to all the "game of thrones" the nobles play, it's viewpoint is that of Jorah's from AGOT: "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are." --Daenerys III

Or Varys' from AGOT as well: "The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me … why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" --Eddard XV

It's a resounding continual exploration of how the realm bleeds when nobles take it into their heads to play "the game of thrones". The games of thrones isn't want saves a realm--it's what destroys it. Which is I disagree that Sansa learning to play the Game of Thrones is a "good" thing. Sure, personally it is what Sansa needs to learn, but having so many players jockeying for power and undermining each other is what got us into this mess in the first place, as it destabilizes the realm and only gives you temporary and token victories which usually come at a high cost the longer you try to hold on to those token victories. Same thing happens in Les Rois Maudits, only Druon (the author of that series) distills it into one fight over a single county inheritance between a nephew (who is very Tyrion and Jaime like--imagine them combined in personality) and an aunt (who is like Cersei and Olenna combined into one character). The two enlist and use various members of the royal family to gain possession of that county--often destroying it or ransacking it when they realize that the other is about to come back with a counter move, and increasingly doing more and more damage to the county they supposedly profess to "love". In the end none of what anyone was fighting for in their "game of thrones" is accomplished. The game of thrones is exposed as nothing more than a waste of time, people, and lives--as neither have the county, and each dies in the attempt of reclaiming it at the end.

If Martin continues with this pattern of inspiration from Les Rois Maudits, things have to get a lot worse before the Others arrive, and the only way for that to come to pass is if Jon is dead. This is true regardless of whether you believe him to be coming back or not. Just like how the GOT is destabilizing the South (and to some extent the North), at the Wall, Jon's presence brings with it too much stability. If Westeros is to be caught unawares of the Others, Jon and the fragile peace between Wildlings and the Night's Watch needs to come to an end. Fighting, chaos, and disarray need to come to the Wall and destabilize it, preparing for the invasion of the Others. Whether or not Jon comes back is irrelevant. First he has to die and stay dead for a time, so that the Wall can do what the rest of Westeros has been doing for some time: fiddle while Rome burns. After that, it could go either way.

Personally, I've grown tired of "Jon Snow is the Übermensch" theories, which leads me to like the idea of him really being dead, or at least remaining in Ghost for the rest of the series. But I do see the likelihood that he comes back, though I have increasingly less enthusiasm for it, and in such a case--he needs to be changed along the lines of Stoneheart in terms of personality, or having his personality nearly subsumed by the wolf part would be suitable--degraded so it's just a step above dark animal instinct. That would keep the tone consistent.

Any way you cut it, Jon's staying dead for a while and needs to be for the story of how Westeros screws itself over so that it leaves itself easy prey for both Dany's invasion and the Others' invasion. Whether he remains that way is another matter.

Dany and her crew likely die in fighting off the Others--as someone else put it "Fire dies and leaves the survivors to rebuild without Ice or Fire."

And in the end most of our POVs will be dead (just like Druon killed off most of his POVs in his last book), leaving secondary characters who are unheroic survivors like Samwell to rebuild in the ashes left behind. Similarly Druon left secondary and minor characters he introduced late in the series to continue the fighting when the original cast continually died off. Druon ends on a note that France only has herself to blame for the war that followed with the English, and I think we have to hit that note in Weseros before things will turn around and go past where Druon went.

[Jaface]

Could Jon skinchange from Ghost to his undead body?

This is now my personal theory. Jon wargs Ghost while his body is resurrected as a white walker. Then he finds his mindless body and wargs back into it. Now he's a conscious white walker.

[WhitewolfStark]

This is now my personal theory. Jon wargs Ghost while his body is resurrected as a white walker. Then he finds his mindless body and wargs back into it. Now he's a conscious white walker.

 

So what possibly happened to Coldhands?

[Whitering]

 

So what possibly happened to Coldhands?

I don't think we've seen Coldhands since Bran got into the Cave, my own opinion is that Bloodraven was at the wheel, that's why he seemed so often distracted. It's a mirror of what Bran does with Hodor, which is immoral in Bran's case, but okay if it's a dead dude in Bloodraven's case.

[Gomagoti]

lets say, hypothetically, he doesn't warg at all, doesn't become undead etc. What do you htink might happen to Ghost? I don't see anyone being able to catch/kill him, he'd be in too much of a state when Jon dies.They can't keep him locked up forever either. My personal theory is that in a scenario like this, there would be generalised chaos what with Wun Wun going bonkers and the wildlings and other NW men realising Jon's been stabbed. I'd hope Ghost could escape and make his way to Summer and Bran, or even just roam the north as a free agent. Then there's also the possibility that Mel either takes him in, or frees him, or helps him in some other way; the 2 did seen to be getting along nicely in Dance.

 

I really love Ghost.I will be more disenchanted if he dies than if Jon does.

[Logicsbane]

I've posted this on several other of these types of threads, might as well repeat it here. Although, I will say I've gotten quicker each time at typing it:
I've lately gotten interested in the book series Martin calls "the original game of thrones" in his forward to the English translation of, Les Rois Maudits (aka The Accursed Kings). It's a book series about how France goes from the Medieval superpower and powerhouse with a strong military, strong monarchy and secure dynasty (the Capets), it's so powerful they've even forced the Pope to move to France and influence the elections of said Pope. To how it becomes a ripe plumb for the English to pluck and war with for a hundred years of on again and off again warfare. Essentially the lead-up to the Hundred Years War. And it all comes down in the novels to two people playing the "game of thrones" and slowly killing more and more of the royal family off or manipulating them to squabble amongst each other and their sworn lords that, they run France right into the ground. And what got them into this mess? This constant back and forth of treachery, backstabbing, murder, betrayal, and intrigue.
Les Rois Maudits isn't a love letter to all the "game of thrones" the nobles play, it's viewpoint is that of Jorah's from AGOT: "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are." --Daenerys III
Or Varys' from AGOT as well: "The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me … why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" --Eddard XV
It's a resounding continual exploration of how the realm bleeds when nobles take it into their heads to play "the game of thrones". The games of thrones isn't want saves a realm--it's what destroys it. Which is I disagree that Sansa learning to play the Game of Thrones is a "good" thing. Sure, personally it is what Sansa needs to learn, but having so many players jockeying for power and undermining each other is what got us into this mess in the first place, as it destabilizes the realm and only gives you temporary and token victories which usually come at a high cost the longer you try to hold on to those token victories. Same thing happens in Les Rois Maudits, only Druon (the author of that series) distills it into one fight over a single county inheritance between a nephew (who is very Tyrion and Jaime like--imagine them combined in personality) and an aunt (who is like Cersei and Olenna combined into one character). The two enlist and use various members of the royal family to gain possession of that county--often destroying it or ransacking it when they realize that the other is about to come back with a counter move, and increasingly doing more and more damage to the county they supposedly profess to "love". In the end none of what anyone was fighting for in their "game of thrones" is accomplished. The game of thrones is exposed as nothing more than a waste of time, people, and lives--as neither have the county, and each dies in the attempt of reclaiming it at the end.
If Martin continues with this pattern of inspiration from Les Rois Maudits, things have to get a lot worse before the Others arrive, and the only way for that to come to pass is if Jon is dead. This is true regardless of whether you believe him to be coming back or not. Just like how the GOT is destabilizing the South (and to some extent the North), at the Wall, Jon's presence brings with it too much stability. If Westeros is to be caught unawares of the Others, Jon and the fragile peace between Wildlings and the Night's Watch needs to come to an end. Fighting, chaos, and disarray need to come to the Wall and destabilize it, preparing for the invasion of the Others. Whether or not Jon comes back is irrelevant. First he has to die and stay dead for a time, so that the Wall can do what the rest of Westeros has been doing for some time: fiddle while Rome burns. After that, it could go either way.
Personally, I've grown tired of "Jon Snow is the Übermensch" theories, which leads me to like the idea of him really being dead, or at least remaining in Ghost for the rest of the series. But I do see the likelihood that he comes back, though I have increasingly less enthusiasm for it, and in such a case--he needs to be changed along the lines of Stoneheart in terms of personality, or having his personality nearly subsumed by the wolf part would be suitable--degraded so it's just a step above dark animal instinct. That would keep the tone consistent.
Any way you cut it, Jon's staying dead for a while and needs to be for the story of how Westeros screws itself over so that it leaves itself easy prey for both Dany's invasion and the Others' invasion. Whether he remains that way is another matter.
 
Dany and her crew likely die in fighting off the Others--as someone else put it "Fire dies and leaves the survivors to rebuild without Ice or Fire."
And in the end most of our POVs will be dead (just like Druon killed off most of his POVs in his last book), leaving secondary characters who are unheroic survivors like Samwell to rebuild in the ashes left behind. Similarly Druon left secondary and minor characters he introduced late in the series to continue the fighting when the original cast continually died off. Druon ends on a note that France only has herself to blame for the war that followed with the English, and I think we have to hit that note in Weseros before things will turn around and go past where Druon went.

Solid post.... I never really imagined Jon Snow have an arc that saw him turn to evil ( I actually anticipate Dany T and her Dragons as the series ultimate Evil, for lack of a better word).....but What if? What if an Anti-Hero Jon becomes blood thirsty ?