POV structure of TWoW

[ChillyPolly]

 

So you think some other POV will visit the River Lands, get captured by the BwB and Jamie's story will continue like that?

 

No.  I think Jaime will show up somewhere else, in someone else's POV, and provide an explanation (possibly misleading) as to where he has been or what he has been doing.  We will see him through the eyes of others, and possibly be misled.  

 

GRRM has deliberately left us in the dark.  This is not something he might do.  It is something he has already done.

[sifth]

 

No.  I think Jaime will show up somewhere else, in someone else's POV, and provide an explanation (possibly misleading) as to where he has been or what he has been doing.  We will see him through the eyes of others, and possibly be misled.  

 

GRRM has deliberately left us in the dark.  This is not something he might do.  It is something he has already done.

 

Yea I doubt that's going to happen. Jamie was made into a POV for a reason, what that reason is I don't know, but he clearly has a plan for the character, that requires him to not remain a secondary character.

 

My guess is GRRM just took a random guess when asked how many POV's he was using for the next book. Cercie and Jamie's chapters for example weren't originally planned to be in ADWD. George just chose to put them in because he wanted to settle a few cliffhangers from AFFC, since the 5th book took so long write.

[ChillyPolly]

 

Yea I doubt that's going to happen. Jamie was made into a POV for a reason, what that reason is I don't know [1], but he clearly has a plan for the character, that requires him to not remain a secondary character.

 

My guess is GRRM just took a random guess [2] when asked how many POV's he was using for the next book. Cercie and Jamie's chapters for example weren't originally planned to be in ADWD. George just chose to put them in because he wanted to settle a few cliffhangers from AFFC, since the 5th book took so long write.

 

[1] If you don't know the reason, then you don't know the purpose has yet been achieved.  He's setting up something, to be sure.  But the denouement does not have to come in his own POV.

 

[2] My guess, nonetheless, is that GRRM still has more authority than you do, however fallible he may be.  So 13 it is, until we get further news.  So go ahead and include Jaime if you want.  You'll just have to cut someone else out to stay at 13.

[sifth]

 

[1] If you don't know the reason, then you don't know the purpose has yet been achieved.  He's setting up something, to be sure.  But the denouement does not have to come in his own POV.

 

[2] My guess, nonetheless, is that GRRM still has more authority than you do, however fallible he may be.  So 13 it is, until we get further news.  So go ahead and include Jaime if you want.  You'll just have to cut someone else out to stay at 13.

 

I'm just saying don't take GRRM's word like it's something set in stone. If it was ADwD would have been out in 2006, lol

[ChillyPolly]

 

I'm just saying don't take GRRM's word like it's something set in stone.

 

Nothing is set in stone.  He can change his mind and add a Dolorous Edd chapter out of the blue because he decided he needs one.  But a Dolorous Edd chapter is not something we can predict, particularly if it is not something GRRM can predict.

 

 All I am saying is that we don't know better than he does.  So if he thinks he needs 13 POVs, then the only logical conclusion is that those insisting he needs more than 13 are counting as necessary some POVs that GRRM has decided will not appear.

[sifth]

 

Nothing is set in stone.  He can change his mind and add a Dolorous Edd chapter out of the blue because he decided he needs one.  But a Dolorous Edd chapter is not something we can predict, particularly if it is not something GRRM can predict.

 

 All I am saying is that we don't know better than he does.  So if he thinks he needs 13 POVs, then the only logical conclusion is that those insisting he needs more than 13 are counting as necessary some POVs that GRRM has decided will not appear.

 

Believe what you want man, I just know nothing is certain with GRRM until it's published and I highly doubt the 13 POV window is going to be something that sticks. If you want to believe it will, that's fair enough I suppose.

[ChillyPolly]

Believe what you want man, I just know nothing is certain with GRRM until it's published and I highly doubt the 13 POV window is going to be something that sticks. If you want to believe it will, that's fair enough I suppose.

Be as agnostic as you like. If your position is "we cannot possibly know", then you have my support.

But if you want to guess, your odds of being right are best if you work with the best info available. And the best info available is 13 povs in the volume, per GRRM, and not more than 13 POVs in the volume, per fans who claim they know better than GRRM.

It's not that I think GRRM knows for certain or is infallible. It is just that I refuse to entertain, for one second, the idea that anyone else knows any better than he does.

So yeah, I'm stiking with 13. And if I am wrong, because GRRM adds a Beth Cassell POV and an Alliser Thorne POV at the last minute, then my guesses will still be closer than the "I know better than GRRM" crowd, because none of them will have predicted Alliser Thorne or Beth Cassell either.

It's not that I assume I have good odds of guessing right. It's just that I refuse to entertain the idea that the "I know better than George" attitude will improve my chances of guessing right.

[sifth]

Be as agnostic as you like. If your position is "we cannot possibly know", then you have my support.

But if you want to guess, your odds of being right are best if you work with the best info available. And the best info available is 13 povs in the volume, per GRRM, and not more than 13 POVs in the volume, per fans who claim they know better than GRRM.

It's not that I think GRRM knows for certain or is infallible. It is just that I refuse to entertain, for one second, the idea that anyone else knows any better than he does.

So yeah, I'm stiking with 13. And if I am wrong, because GRRM adds a Beth Cassell POV and an Alliser Thorne POV at the last minute, then my guesses will still be closer than the "I know better than GRRM" crowd, because none of them will have predicted Alliser Thorne or Beth Cassell either.

It's not that I assume I have good odds of guessing right. It's just that I refuse to entertain the idea that the "I know better than George" attitude will improve my chances of guessing right.

 

Never said I know better than George, I just know his nature and his nature is to give out unreliable info while writing a book. Years ago while writing ADWD he said there would only be one new POV character in the book and when the final product came out we ended up with 4; Barristan, Mel, Jon C, and Quentyn.

 

Just a rule of life man, never trust any info while something is still in post production; well in this case still being written.

[Sir popelor]

This is becoming a bit off topic...

[Bastetcat]

My prediction: the Winds of Winter POV-s, and what will we see through them.

------------- the samples----------------
1. Barristan - Mereen - he will die (see TV show) Dany will return to Mereen (see more in NO. 6)

2. Sansa - Vale, political play, entering northern policy and/or southern policy (Dorne-Aegon)

3. Arya - will continue learning, then flee to Westeros - maybe after the news: "Jon is murdered".

4. Arianne - marry Aegon, sitting on the throne, then get the news - Aegon if fake. Big fail on her mission, then dies.

5. Damphair - working against Euron. Contact Asha and Theon. Maybe some real kraken awakening? That would be cool.

 

------------- my opinion----------------

6. Deny – uniting the dothrakies, then Mereen, then to Volantis, stop at the narrow sea. Learn “how to tame your dragon”. But only Drogon.

7. Cercei - win the trial, but losing the children to Dorne -> Mircella dies in Dorne, Tommen when Aegon and Arianne go to Kings Landing?

8. Jamie- Riverlands, Frays and BWB, LS. Northern conspiracy on the riverlands.

9. Tyrion - Mareen, advising Dany, the Iron fleet, Victarion, dragon problems

10. Davos - Rickon - the north in general, small folk.

11. Asha Grayjoy - Stannis's army, the battle of winterfell, death/end of Stannis, meating with Davos, Rickon, and everyone in winterfell. Northern conspiracy in the north.

12. Jon – not death, just in comatose. learning to warg. Others arriving. The north unit against the bigger threat. Northern conspiracy, Robbs will. This could couse conflict with the south. – Sansa could interfere?

13. Bren – far north.
------------------  +1 ------------------
14. Sam – Oldtown.
 

I think after Barristan ‘s death. (- 1 POV) we will have +1 which is Sam’s). So technically it will be 14.

Ps: forgive me if there are mistakes, my English is rusty.

[ChillyPolly]

I think after Barristan ‘s death. (- 1 POV) we will have +1 which is Sam’s). So technically it will be 14.

 

Fine.  But that's not what George said.  He said there would be 13 & fewer by the end, not 14, and fewer by the end.

[sifth]

I'll honestly be shocked if Barristan and Vic survive this book. I suppose only time will tell.

[Locksley]

Oh man I totally forgot to put Davos in my POV count. That was silly of me. 

We know the following are confirmed POV's from chapters that have been released/read so far:

Arya

Tyrion

Barristan

Arianne

Aeron

Theon

Sansa

Victorian

 

So those 8 are confirmed. I agree that Victorian and Barristan are likely to kick the bucket in this book, but they still count towards the total POV's.

I believe Dany, Bran, Davos, Jaime, and Sam would be the next 5 that would get chapters if he sticks with his prediction of 13 chapters.

If he changes his mind and adds more POV's, all the better for us readers. If he can tell the story he wants with only 13 of his 20 POV's, I'm fine with that. I was previously expressing my shock that he would cut back the POV's so drastically, especially since most of us think 1 or 2 of the already confirmed POV's will die early one. But hey, what do we know, this is all specualtion until the book comes out. :)

 

So that being said, if he does indeed stick with the predicted 13 POV's here are my thoughts on who they will be and what story they will tell:

 

1. Barristan: Battle of Mereen and aftermath. I think he will survive the battle, possibly injured, but will die a little while after the battle while in service to his queen.

2. Theon: Battle of Ice and following Stannis' story. This will combine with Asha as well. I don't think Asha will have her own POV any longer unless Theon dies, but I feel his story is not complete yet, I think we will see him survive until ADoS. Asha may die.

3. Tyrion: Battle of Mereen, taming Dragons, helping Dany establish herself as a ruler. 

4. Arianne: I think after her early chapters meeting Aegon and going to Storm's End, we will see Aegon's story unfold through her eyes. I don't think JonCon will be alive after this book so she will take his place. I think she and Aegon are destined for King's Landing so we may not see any Cersei chapters, we may see Cersei's fate through Arianne's POV.

5. Aeron: Iron Islands and his polotting against Euron. Maybe he will meet up with Asha or Theon later in the book to dispute the Kingsmoot. 

6. Victorian: Battle of Mereen. I'm not sure how long he will survive. I'm guessing until part way through the book, but I think he will die trying to claim the dragons as his own.

7. Sansa: The Vale and the political climate there.

8. Arya: Some of training and later on hopefully a mission or her going rogue, leading her to Westeros.

 

So those are the confirmed POV's, following are my predication's for the remaining POV's.

 

9. Bran: Happenings in the North and through the Weirwood trees some of the other locations and storlines that need resolution. The revival of Jon.

10. Dany: Dothraki sea, Vaes Dothrak. Going back to Mereen. Hopefully getting ready to head into Westeros.

11. Jaime: Including his story and Brienne's/LS/BWoB. Maybe King's Landing later on or Cersei's fate.

12. Davos: Rickon and Skagos. Possibly more Stannis info if Theon/Asha end up with Aeron or dead,

13. Sam: The Citadel/Reach  Maybe some Euron action.

 

So that wraps up the predicted amount of POV's but leaves us with some unresolved plot lines without POV's. I'm sure George with his brilliance will figure out how to finish those stories, no matter how many POV's he needs/has.

Unfinished plotlines not covered by predicted POV's:

- Darkstar hunt: Possibly in Arianne or Sam chapters? No more Areo I guess, otherwise I'd imagine him resolving this plot line.

- The Wall/Jon Snow: Possibly through Bran's POV? Unless Theon or Davos ends up at the wall to provide this story or maybe it will be resolved in the Epilogue with Mel or some other POV dying and Jon reviving.

- Trials of the Faith: Cersei/Marg trial's. Maybe through Arienne or Jaime. Possibly Bran can see this if for some reason the Trials happen near a Weirwood (I could see Cersei giving the finger to the Faith by insisting her Trial happen in the Godswood just to spite them)

 

That sums up everything I can think of. I guess we will wait and see. :)

[ChillyPolly]

9. Bran: Happenings in the North and through the Weirwood trees some of the other locations and storlines that need resolution. The revival of Jon.

10. Dany: Dothraki sea, Vaes Dothrak. Going back to Mereen. Hopefully getting ready to head into Westeros.

11. Jaime: Including his story and Brienne's/LS/BWoB. Maybe King's Landing later on or Cersei's fate.

12. Davos: Rickon and Skagos. Possibly more Stannis info if Theon/Asha end up with Aeron or dead,

13. Sam: The Citadel/Reach  Maybe some Euron action.

 

So that wraps up the predicted amount of POV's but leaves us with some unresolved plot lines without POV's. I'm sure George with his brilliance will figure out how to finish those stories, no matter how many POV's he needs/has.

Unfinished plotlines not covered by predicted POV's:

- Darkstar hunt: Possibly in Arianne or Sam chapters? No more Areo I guess, otherwise I'd imagine him resolving this plot line.

- The Wall/Jon Snow: Possibly through Bran's POV? Unless Theon or Davos ends up at the wall to provide this story or maybe it will be resolved in the Epilogue with Mel or some other POV dying and Jon reviving.

- Trials of the Faith: Cersei/Marg trial's. Maybe through Arienne or Jaime. Possibly Bran can see this if for some reason the Trials happen near a Weirwood (I could see Cersei giving the finger to the Faith by insisting her Trial happen in the Godswood just to spite them)

 

That sums up everything I can think of. I guess we will wait and see. :)

 

A pretty good analysis.  The big omissions from your list are Cersei and Jon Snow/Ghost.   I don't buy this, which is why I instead would knock off Jaime and Sam.  

 

I think Jaime will next appear in Cersei's POV.  She won't know what happened to him -- no more than he tells her -- and I think GRRM wants the readers in the same boat.  Eventually he will strangle her, as many have guessed.   It will be also be through Cersei's eyes (news brought her by advisers, etc.) that we discover what is really going on with the so-called "Darkstar Hunt".   Also her trials.

 

Sam's plot role at this point is either to disappear after having been offed by a faceless man, or to settle in and get an education.  Either way, he is well set up for a book-long POV hiatus.  I have no particularly strong opinions here, but I can't see him as more likely than a continuing Jon Snow/Ghost POV.

[Sir popelor]

I think Jaime will next appear in Cersei's POV.  She won't know what happened to him -- no more than he tells her -- and I think GRRM wants the readers in the same boat.  Eventually he will strangle her, as many have guessed.   It will be also be through Cersei's eyes (news brought her by advisers, etc.) that we discover what is really going on with the so-called "Darkstar Hunt".   Also her trials.

 

Sam's plot role at this point is either to disappear after having been offed by a faceless man, or to settle in and get an education.  Either way, he is well set up for a book-long POV hiatus.  I have no particularly strong opinions here, but I can't see him as more likely than a continuing Jon Snow/Ghost POV.

 

The Jaimie prediction is quite strong, also the Hunt for Darkstar(Or maybe put the end of the hunt on the epilgue, with Lightbringer=Dawn revealed)

Jon/DeadJons' POVs are not gonna be in the book, but I think Mel will be following and replacing his POVs for this time

 

Also no Sam

[sifth]

We're going to need at least one POV on The Wall. I highly doubt GRRM is just going to forget about the Jon Snow cliffhanger for an entire book.

 

Especially not with season 6 about to spoil it for all of us.

[yankee211]

7. Sansa: The Vale and the political climate there.

 

Nope. Sansa is going to leave the Vale very very soon maybe even in the next chapter itself. The show has already told us the Vale plot is inconsequential.

The only purpose of the Vale plot = Sansa learning the game of thrones, thats it.

 

Either she will go North or much more likely, she will go south and become a POV in Kings Landing along with Cersei which eliminates the need for a Brienne/Jaime POV as well. Brienne is already tied into Sansa plot both in books and show.

Do you also think Sansa's story will tie into the riverlands as well. Because of her lineage with the Tullys and Wheants since her grandmother was a Wheant. There is something about Haranheal that is important for LF and I strongly believe Sansa will some how encounter her mother, because it will tie into Brienne's and Jaime's promise to Catlyne.

[Locksley]

7. Sansa: The Vale and the political climate there.

 

Nope. Sansa is going to leave the Vale very very soon maybe even in the next chapter itself. The show has already told us the Vale plot is inconsequential.

The only purpose of the Vale plot = Sansa learning the game of thrones, thats it.

 

Either she will go North or much more likely, she will go south and become a POV in Kings Landing along with Cersei which eliminates the need for a Brienne/Jaime POV as well. Brienne is already tied into Sansa plot both in books and show.

Not saying she will be there the whole book, but for at least the first third I think she will be. After that I'm not sure.

 

But of course since the TV show changed Sansa's story it is of no consequence, that's why GRRM put it in the book to begin with right?. How foolish of me to view the TV show and the books as different entities entirely.

[Curled Finger]

I came here today with the express purpose of finding this thread.   My friend said she read that Winds will open with 13 POVs and end with 6???   6???   She is not great at sourcing so I was hoping some of you well informed folks could confirm or deny this?   I came up with the same 19 POVs and the same pairings, Asha/Theon, Brienne/Jamie, Jon/Mel and Arienne/Jon C. imagining that 1 of each will be eliminated or more hopefully, combined.  That's 15.  It's a safe bet that Victarion/Tyrion/Barristan will be combined, making 14 and that is where I hit the wall.   It was good to reread Chilly Polly's supposition that the dispersing of a POV doesn't necessarily mean a death.   Whew.   I am not up for losing Brienne or Jamie yet.  GRRM said we will see High Garden and Casterly Rock, I think.   I would think Sam as the most likely POV for High Garden.  If I am forced to choose, kill off the damphair, not Sam.   Does anyone have information regarding the ending number of POVs in Winds?

[Sir popelor]

There is no confirm that at the end there will be 6, just less than the beginning