Diregon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Why is taken as a general rule that Stannis doesn't lust for power and only wants it because he has a duty towards the entire kingdom ? He didn't tell his brother as soon as he found out about the incest thing .... Any half decent brother wouldn't have left their elder brother in the hands of Lannister treachery . I mean wasn't it his duty to tell his brother the truth? He clearly knew that he was the heir to the throne if the incest was proven, so if he had told Robert while he was alive maybe the thought crossed Stannis's mind that Robert could legitamise one of his bastards or get remarried and have more children if he found out that his own children were illegitimate... Why else would he wait till Robert is dead to reveal the truth ? Why see him through rose tinted glasses ( the same one Davos uses ) when we can't read his mind because he doesn't have a pov... How are we so sure that he isn't as entitled as Dany is without seeing his head ? He is just . It is given , but saying that he solely wants the crown because he has a duty but no ambition or lust to be a king is just streching it . He doesn't have to be the king to defeat the white walkers (if people try to justify his war to throne for that noble purpose). He could easily have supported Robb and Renly give up his claim and yet do his as Azor Ahai (as he believed that he was the one due to Mel).... Not like Renly wouldn't have agreed to help against the white walkers if Stannis asked and if he was shown their power...( What Renly did was wrong, but couldn't Stannis be a bigger man like Aemon if he didn't lust for power ?) It was his duty to protect the realm right ? He did the opposite by declaring himself king... Both Robb and Renly were fighting one common enemy and Balon wasn't doing anything actively, so instead of 2 parties ( Robb and Renly vs Lannisters) There became 3 parties solely due to his " duty" ... More lives lost .... How is that protector of the realm? (Not saying that Renly wasn't ambitious , in fact he was more lustful ... But Renly being ambitious doesn't change the fact that Stannis was lustful too.) End justifies the means? So its justified for him to use black magic to get to an end and kill his brother and its ok to kill his nephew .... But if his end is getting to the IT, it makes sense . But if his end was to fight against the white walkers, he could do that without being the king too. Even if he was the king not like every major house ( Tyrell , Lannister, Martell etc ..) would willing send their armies that far north..Maybe he could have had a little more agency but he could have gone through a peaceful approach too if his intentions were fighting the WW... If end justifies the means, why not let your ego on the side and even support Tommen atm to just get through the Winter ? Instead of having contrived plans on first taking the north and then attacking the crown all in the middle of a zombie apocalypse ? The fact is he is a lustful for power as any other contender for the throne, maybe he is just scared of the fact that he would just be a page in someone else's history book instead of becoming the legendary hero that Mel told him he might be ? After all we don't see Stannis for a large part of the story from his own eyes but from the eyes of a guy who worships him . Its like reading Dany from Jorah's eyes . He just was tired to be overshadowed by his brother all the time and wanted his moment in the sun . Isn't that a possibility atleast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her? We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must ... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. I don't think that he wants to be King but that is the law and he cannot change the law. End justifies the means? So its justified for him to use black magic to get to an end and kill his brother and its ok to kill his nephew .... You are talking about the TV series. In the books there is nowhere mentioned that he knew what Mel did before Renly's death. Also in the books he was thinking about doing it to save the Realm. If he was determined to do it, Edric would had been dead from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregon Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 I don't think that he wants to be King but that is the law and he cannot change the law. What does the law say about kinslaying? You can't say end justifies the means and also say that you can't break the law together ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 What does the law say about kinslaying? You can't say end justifies the means and also say that you can't break the law together ; ) again; You are talking about the TV series. In the books there is nowhere mentioned that he knew what Mel did before Renly's death. Also in the books he was thinking about doing it to save the Realm. he wasn't sure. If he was determined to do it, Edric would had been dead from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregon Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 I don't think that he wants to be King but that is the law and he cannot change the law. You are talking about the TV series. In the books there is nowhere mentioned that he knew what Mel did before Renly's death. Also in the books he was thinking about doing it to save the Realm. If he was determined to do it, Edric would had been dead from the beginning. So he is unaware that he killed his brother with his shadow baby ? Ok that might be a possibility, but isn't it there a bigger possibility that he might be aware of it and still be ok with it ? Noone has seen inside his head and to think that he has no inkling about it is being naive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregon Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 Its called shadow baby for a reason, how is there a baby without consensual sex between Mel and Staanis? And why would he even have sex with her if he didn't know about the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 So he is unaware that he killed his brother with his shadow baby ? In the books he didn't knew what Mel did before Renly being shadowbabied. Ok that might be a possibility, but isn't it there a bigger possibility that he might be aware of it and still be ok with it ? And Ned might have been the smarter player of them all. Is not about possibilities. Is about what is in the books and what isn't. Stannis didn't knew what Mel did to Renly before his death. He felt something when Renly dies but he didn't knew it before that. Noone has seen inside his head and to think that he has no inkling about it is being naive Again possibilities=/= books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Its called shadow baby for a reason, how is there a baby without consensual sex between Mel and Staanis? And why would he even have sex with her if he didn't know about the consequences? So if a woman gets pregnant by a sperm donor with a child that in the future will be a serial killer is the father's or the mother's, fault? As to why, I know that it might be a shocking but some people have sex for pleasure and not for procreation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 What does the law say about kinslaying?Presumably nothing, unless you can provide textual proof otherwise. Thought a sin and against the law of god(s)doesn't make it Westerosi law. It's not like anyone was arguing with Robb that killing Karstarks was unlawful of him. Taking up arms against your king though, breaking his peace, clearly unlawful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Stannis used Mel to kill Renly with magic. Maybe he did not know about the shadowbaby but he for sure knew he have to kill Renly to win the battle because he can not win the conventional way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Stannis used Mel to kill Renly with magic. Maybe he did not know about the shadowbaby but he for sure knew he have to kill Renly to win the battle because he can not win the conventional way. What do you believe that would had happen in battle people play cards and the one who wins at the game wins the war? Of course he knew that he had to kill the traitor. What he supposed to do? Is it his fault what Mel did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Do people really believe Stannis didn't know that he would kill Renly using magic? Why the fuck would he put himself in the shitty position next to Storm's end if he didn't know what he was doing? He was 100% lying to Davos about not knowing what he was doing, Stannis is not naive and probably wouldn't just fuck Mel for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 What do you believe that would had happen in battle people play cards and the one who wins at the game wins the war? Of course he knew that he had to kill the traitor. What he supposed to do? Is it his fault what Mel did? You are doing a poor job shifting the blame to Mel. Let's face the truth. Stannis desperately wanted Renly's bannermen and with his small army, there was no hope for him to win the battle. So for Stannis killing through magic was the only option. It might be true he was not aware of the details, but he knew only through magic he can hope to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 That he even has to mention that he does not want it calls that into question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Of course he knew, the better question is why do people point to it as though it's some kind of hypocrisy? Ending rebellions, defending and bringing peace to their realm is part of the job description for a king, it's perhaps their primary duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 He clearly wants to be king. In fact his every "duty to the realm" was done with his own ambitions in his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Do people really believe Stannis didn't know that he would kill Renly using magic? Of course he knew, the better question is why do people point to it as though it's some kind of hypocrisy? Ending rebellions, defending and bringing peace to their realm is part of the job description for a king, it's perhaps their primary duty. You are doing a poor job shifting the blame to Mel. Let's face the truth. Stannis desperately wanted Renly's bannermen and with his small army, there was no hope for him to win the battle. So for Stannis killing through magic was the only option. It might be true he was not aware of the details, but he knew only through magic he can hope to win. Where in the books is it mentioned? Because in my books nowhere was mentioned that Stannis knew what Mel was going to do before she shadowbabied Renly. But please humour me where in the books it is mentioned that he knew it before it was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 If he didn't, I'm not sure why his brother's peach is going to haunt him for so long, by his own admission. But really, does anyone believe there is really a curse on kinslaying? It's not the greatest of deeds (in the case of Tywin, it is) but the world hasn't set a precedent of amazingly strong family bonds over the millenia. Stannis killed Renly. Is there something more wrong with that than if he hadn't been related to him? Meh. Some might say life destruction is life destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Stannis has done some horrible things in his quest to sit that ugly ass chair of course he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 But really, does anyone believe there is really a curse on kinslaying? It's not the greatest of deeds (in the case of Tywin, it is) but the world hasn't set a precedent of amazingly strong family bonds over the millenia. No. Its just a superstition which for me is a result of the guilt the person who killed the other feel. Stannis killed Renly. Any text that it is mentioned that Stannis knew what would happen before it happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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