Heresy 174

[Reposado]

again he finds an interesting fact and twists logic  to fit a crazy theory. (that of planetos being in the 1000 worlds)

 

if anything the sacrifices would have sped up in the past 200 years. (which may be why the others are just returning to strength now)

 

which is an interesting point.

 

prior to alysanne's visit. the night's watch was holding the night fort. now it's empty and it's much easier to get down there to sacrifice your bastard. and he uses a quote saying that the boltons, hill clans and umbers keep to the first night as evidence that the sacrifices have stopped? umm, there is now an open path to the sacrifice gate. 

 

so what would it mean for sacrifices to be on the rise. add craster to the mix, because he hes only been making sacrifices in the past century at most

 

the weird part is if it has been thousands of years since sacrifices were made in the nightfort, how do the boltons, umbers and hill clans know about it? and what were they doing with these babies before then? perhaps giving them to the weirwoods. and thus in the past 200 years the singers have dwindled, (thus their summoning of bloodraven and then bran) and the others have been gaining strength, the most they have had since the long night

[Tucu]

 

I can go with a lot of that, especially in regards to the Black Gate. As I said earlier I think that the gate itself lends credence to the heretical theory that the faces on the trees are not carved but magically imprinted when men are sacrificed to them. It would also answer one of the contradictions in the Nights King story; namely that if the Wall was built after the Long Night and the Others had been defeated and sent homeward to to think again, why thirteen Lord Commanders down the line later were sacrifices being made to the supposedly long-gone Others.

 

As to the walkers themselves, given Maester Fomas' account I really can't accept that Craster's sons are a red herring - what's the point? 

The Black Gate opens when a NW brother says:"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

 

A weird key phrase for a door intended for giving away human sacrifices. Unless there is some form of deception or someone changed the locks after the NK was deposed.

[Black Crow]

I like to keep things simple myself - always have.

 

I'd say that once upon a time those sacrifices to "the Others" were made by passing children through the living weirwood portal we now know as the Black Gate, but when that particular portal was closed it then became necessary to rely on scattered individuals like Craster and those he inherited the curse from.

[Black Crow]

The Black Gate opens when a NW brother says:"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

 

A weird key phrase for a door intended for giving away human sacrifices. Unless there is some form of deception or someone changed the locks after the NK was deposed.

 

Oh yes indeed, that's certainly how we've interpreted it in the past - that Stark of Winterfell had the locks changed after his brother was overthrown

[Melifeather]

again he finds an interesting fact and twists logic  to fit a crazy theory. (that of planetos being in the 1000 worlds)

 

if anything the sacrifices would have sped up in the past 200 years. (which may be why the others are just returning to strength now)

 

which is an interesting point.

 

prior to alysanne's visit. the night's watch was holding the night fort. now it's empty and it's much easier to get down there to sacrifice your bastard. and he uses a quote saying that the boltons, hill clans and umbers keep to the first night as evidence that the sacrifices have stopped? umm, there is now an open path to the sacrifice gate. 

 

so what would it mean for sacrifices to be on the rise. add craster to the mix, because he hes only been making sacrifices in the past century at most

 

the weird part is if it has been thousands of years since sacrifices were made in the nightfort, how do the boltons, umbers and hill clans know about it? and what were they doing with these babies before then? perhaps giving them to the weirwoods. and thus in the past 200 years the singers have dwindled, (thus their summoning of bloodraven and then bran) and the others have been gaining strength, the most they have had since the long night

 

 

Here's a thought...maybe one of the promises Lyanna extracted from Ned was to not throw Jon down the chute? BUT, now that he's been "kippered", he'll become a white walker like the Snow bastards are supposed to?

 

 

The Black Gate opens when a NW brother says:"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

 

A weird key phrase for a door intended for giving away human sacrifices. Unless there is some form of deception or someone changed the locks after the NK was deposed.

 

:ninja:    Ninja'd by Black Crow....when the Nights King was overthrown, that's exactly what they would've done: used magic to seal the door to all but the Watch.

[Matthew.]

 

 

Who says it's the Children that are doing the sacrificing? There's about as much evidence that they are doing it as some other as yet un-named human. Maybe Roose Bolton has been throwing bastards through the chute? Ramsay's just lucky that Roose decided not to throw them both (he and his mother) down a well. Maybe the well he was referring to is actually another gate?

I'm not saying it has to be the CotF. There are many scenarios where I think that basic premise - offerings sent through the Black Gate - could apply. A second Pact with "the Others," as a true race unto themselves, a pact with some unrevealed faction of Wildlings, etc. The significance of the weirwood face could amount to the fact that the CotF are a part of whatever agreement was in place, but not necessarily the ones primarily responsible for the eventual fate of the sacrifices.
 

The Black Gate opens when a NW brother says:"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

 

A weird key phrase for a door intended for giving away human sacrifices. Unless there is some form of deception or someone changed the locks after the NK was deposed.

A valid criticism, and while I think "changing the locks" might be possible, it's not a terribly satisfying answer.

Maybe those who passed through the Black Gate weren't fated to become WWs, but fated to become like Coldhands--cold rangers, a fighting force more well suited to waging combat in the "white cold" than a force of living men; maybe the history didn't get things that wrong, and the NK really was just an asshole who used sorcery to steal the free will of his fellow rangers, and tried to carve out a kingdom  :dunno:

[WhitewolfStark]

The Black Gate opens when a NW brother says:"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

 

A weird key phrase for a door intended for giving away human sacrifices. Unless there is some form of deception or someone changed the locks after the NK was deposed.

 

Or perhaps the Night's Watch was simply complicit in the entire affair? Akin to how Mormont turns a blind eye to Craster's sacrifices.

It's fun to throw these ideas around, though I do think he's forcing the whole 1000 worlds angle too much, when Martin himself has outright stated that while it started there originally it hasn't ended up there.

What I'm more interested in is the commonalities on a thematic level as informing Martin, with adapting those themes to the appropriate genre through appropriate genre means.

[Tucu]

I can get behind the idea of the "under new management" of the Night Fort.

 

The idea that Northmen have been making sacrifices to the Others in recent history has problems. The Others can't go south of the Wall and Northmen can't easily go North of it. The NW is composed of people from too many places for them to be accomplices.

[Black Crow]

#Whitewolf

 

I think its more simply a matter of continuing to explore and develop particular themes. A good example is The Ice Dragon. It was written a long time ago as a stand-alone story and doesn't form part of the story of Westeros, but certain of the themes explored in there have obviously resurfaced and been rewritten as his ideas have moved on.

[Black Crow]

I can get behind the idea of the "under new management" of the Night Fort.

 

The idea that Northmen have been making sacrifices to the Others in recent history has problems. The Others can't go south of the Wall and Northmen can't easily go North of it. The NW is composed of people from too many places for them to be accomplices in recent history.

 

Not Northmen as such - other than the traditional business of using human entrails as Xmas tree decorations, but some wildlings.

[Tucu]

 

Not Northmen as such - other than the traditional business of using human entrails as Xmas tree decorations, but some wildlings.

Sorry, I was referring to the idea that the Good Queen stopped the sacrifices from Northmen living close to the Wall

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I don't see that one myself either, especially as part of the problem was that there weren't enough people in the original Gift to be viable.

[Tucu]

Looking at the history of the Night Fort, I just realised that the NW decline is rather recent. They had 10000 men at the time of Aegon conquest. I always thought that their decline started a lot earlier, maybe even before the Andal invasion.

 

How were they financed and who were they fighting? With no big bad enemy, why were lords sending men and resources. For example LC Hoare was iron born, so it was not just Northmen supporting the NW.

Why would the iron born care about wildlings invading the North?

Or were the Others still active and the fact was only recently forgotten? Citadel conspiracy?

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure its something GRRM really thought through and if pressed for an explanation it may be that the wars of the Seven Kingdoms provided a steady stream of prisoners - ended by the imposition of the Pax Targaryana.

 

That said, one wonders if there was a semi-religious side to it, in effect sacrificing men to the Wall

[WeaselPie]

It would be interesting to add to JNR's theory that Craster's sons were used as a blood sacrifice to create the bodies for the white walkers and the shadows go into that body.

 

That is just my two cents however.

 

Is THAT where he was going?  First I heard it to my memory but then again I can't check.

[Black Crow]

And with that, its past my bedtime so its time to put this one to bed too.

 

Good night all and I'll see you on Heresy 175 in the morning.

[Voice]

Cheers BC. Onward to H175. Is this bicentennial time now @wolfmaid?