Why I Think Jon Snow Is Dead and Gone

[El Guapo]

Just to elaborate on that, you seem to think D&D are in some personal war against the readers, trolling them for the lulz. Just really silly. They are motivated by one thing: success. If George intends to resurrect Jon, they will do so as well.

They have a popular character, beloved by fans, presumably central to the endgame (if raised in books) who is already on contract. And you think they would diverge from the book here in order to troll?

You need to start asking yourself if your hatred for them is clouding your judgment. Maybe time to even stop watching the show. Get some fresh air. Read a western.

 

It is scary but I believe some people on this board really believe this.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

It is scary but I believe some people on this board really believe this.

I think spending too long in the Rant and Rave threads can drive you insane.

[Toth]

Just to elaborate on that, you seem to think D&D are in some personal war against the readers, trolling them for the lulz. Just really silly. They are motivated by one thing: success. If George intends to resurrect Jon, they will do so as well.

 

I never said anything about a personal war and that they are trolling because they are evil or something. I absolutely agree that their entire motivation is building a successful formula so that they can bath in cash. We only have different interpretations of what that means to the result. You think it's a great thing because appeasing to the masses must be something good while I and many other people find it obvious that they are sacrificing George's story to achieve that.

 

I'm absolutely serious here. We are talking about two people who got a long essay by Ian McElhinney for why Barristan is an important character people have great expectations in and why it is a horrible idea to kill him. Their reply was that they "wanted to kill him even more now". Wow. Getting arguments that a character had crucial stuff to do made them more eager to rake in shocks by killing him off and give said stuff to their favourite Tyrion instead. Just wow. These are people who completely abort Sansa's arc because they wanted shock value out of a main character getting raped. Because Game of Thrones is the show where everyone dies or miserable things happen to them. That's their formula of success, don't pretend otherwise. So if it shocking enough and twists expectations to kill off Jon for real, it is something I simply won't put past them after this season.

 

Of course I think it more likely they keep Jon. Whom else should Melisandre flash her boobs to now after both he and Stannis are gone? But again, I wouldn't put it past them.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

I never said anything about a personal war and that they are trolling because they are evil or something. I absolutely agree that their entire motivation is building a successful formula so that they can bath in cash. We only have different interpretations of what that means to the result. You think it's a great thing because appeasing to the masses must be something good while I and many other people find it obvious that they are sacrificing George's story to achieve that.

 

I'm absolutely serious here. We are talking about two people who got a long essay by Ian McElhinney for why Barristan is an important character people have great expectations in and why it is a horrible idea to kill him. Their reply was that they "wanted to kill him even more now". Wow. Getting arguments that a character had crucial stuff to do made them more eager to rake in shocks by killing him off and give said stuff to their favourite Tyrion instead. Just wow. These are people who completely abort Sansa's arc because they wanted shock value out of a main character getting raped. Because Game of Thrones is the show where everyone dies or miserable things happen to them. That's their formula of success, don't pretend otherwise. So if it shocking enough and twists expectations to kill off Jon for real, it is something I simply won't put past them after this season.

 

Of course I think it more likely they keep Jon. Whom else should Melisandre flash her boobs to now after both he and Stannis are gone? But again, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

I think this kind of sums it up. Not the truth, but the wrong way of looking at what is going on. I've read the interview you mentioned and its obvious that D&D were joking or saying things in a humourous manner when they said they wanted to kill him more. Of course they should have been cleverer because internet trolls cannot distinguish between irony and people telling the truth.

I wasn't a big fan of Selmy dying but if it was a necessary piece of what they were planning on doing then I'm not that bothered. It at the very least did add something to a mid section of the season which was dragging, the reason it was dragging was due to a lack of material to work from. And if they felt that having Selmy around next season didn't really make enough sense of give him something to do, or if the end of season arc worked better when it was focussed on Jorah and Tyrion then I am ok with that too.

The argument that Sansa was sent North to get raped is so childish that its not worth commenting on, but i think its wiser to just try.. TRY and see the bigger picture of why these events occur rather than comments about rape or D&D trolling everyone.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

 
I never said anything about a personal war and that they are trolling because they are evil or something. I absolutely agree that their entire motivation is building a successful formula so that they can bath in cash. We only have different interpretations of what that means to the result. You think it's a great thing because appeasing to the masses must be something good while I and many other people find it obvious that they are sacrificing George's story to achieve that.
 
I'm absolutely serious here. We are talking about two people who got a long essay by Ian McElhinney for why Barristan is an important character people have great expectations in and why it is a horrible idea to kill him. Their reply was that they "wanted to kill him even more now". Wow. Getting arguments that a character had crucial stuff to do made them more eager to rake in shocks by killing him off and give said stuff to their favourite Tyrion instead. Just wow. These are people who completely abort Sansa's arc because they wanted shock value out of a main character getting raped. Because Game of Thrones is the show where everyone dies or miserable things happen to them. That's their formula of success, don't pretend otherwise. So if it shocking enough and twists expectations to kill off Jon for real, it is something I simply won't put past them after this season.
 
Of course I think it more likely they keep Jon. Whom else should Melisandre flash her boobs to now after both he and Stannis are gone? But again, I wouldn't put it past them.

When did I say you said they were evil? You said

"No seriously I think as an author you need to be a total moron if you don't revive Jon with his whole parentage and Azor Ahai arc remaining unsolved. That's the only reason why I think it is entirely possible that Jon remains dead and D&D pad their respective shoulders for having trolled their audience so thoroughly while bazillions of bookreaders just sit there thinking "No seriously, they can't be THAT stupid...""

That's what you said. They are trolling for the lulz is the implication. Notice the self congratulatory patting of the shoulder and the word "troll" being used. Don't back off what you were implying just because someone points it out. You were saying they troll for the lulz.

Now, you could address my follow up about why keeping Jon would be the obvious thing to do given everything we know about how the show works. Or you could take one off-screen quote out of context, sprinkle it wish a dash of hyperbole, and then blow it out of proportion. Sorry, but Ser Barriston != Jon Snow. He is a minor character. Jon is not. Again, your silly example shoes you think they are motivated by puerile trolling incentives. Back to reality please.

[Toth]

@Channel4: I offered a compromise to end the discussion here and now. People who are unhappy with the show find the writing decisions atrocious. People who are happy with the show can look over the writing decisions and decide for themselves that they can live with it. And I can live with people who think like that and don't feel the need to defend every inch of those decisions as absolutely necessary and pure genius at that. I don't want to derail the thread, so I'm just going to iterate the discussion that could spawn out of your comment myself.

 

- I would argument that they have stated in an interview that they always liked the Winterfell-storyline and wanted Sansa in there because it would have more emotional impact to have her raped instead of a newly introduced character. Since they haven't included anything else from that story with the exception of Theon jumping off a castle wall with a rape victim, the reason for replacing Jeyne with Sansa seems absolutely clear to me.

- You would argument that they needed to cut the Vale because that wouldn't have been compelling TV

- I would argument that this simply isn't true, they could have taken storylines from TWoW or made up their own, the show is called Game of Thrones so we should see Sansa playing the game. There was more than enough useless filler this season to replace that with it.

- this part of the discussion would then circle endlessly, you insisting that we couldn't know that because that's not what they've decided on TV, me insisting that it would have been totally possible if they simply hadn't insisted to bring Sansa to Winterfell

- meanwhile I would say to your "See the big picture!"-demand that there simply is no big picture in the show. I don't know where exactly but in one of the earlier interviews the Ds proudly bragged with that they only start writing the next season when the one before has finished filming, so they make up shit as they go along. They don't plan everything through and I doubt they really planned for Sansa to be raped two years ago (maybe they have talked about it, but since Littlefinger's insanely illogical plan came out of nowhere, it's highly doubtful they really 'planned' the way she gets into that situation). So the other bigger picture you could reference there is the books they thoroughly ignore with their adaption. And in these books it is very clearly foreshadowed that Sansa is going to rally the Vale to her side. So if she gets to arrive at Winterfell, she does as a liberator with an army at her back, not as a traumatized rape-victim without army, what she is at the end of season 5. That has barely anything in common...

- here you would argument that I couldn't know that they don't have something up their sleeves and this something would make complete sense in retroperspective. I continue to doubt that, so this argument would also go on in circles.

 

But yes, they'll likely revive Jon because that is on one of GRRMs know-cards he gave them, but that's it, so while there is foreshadowing in the show for it, it's not they deserve praise for being faithful to the books or something considering how little they got anything right.

 

@Split Pea Soup: Okay, fine. I've made a joke by stating they could be trolling (even though trolling doesn't need to imply a personal war, that would have implied they have some grudge against there own audience and I highly doubt that). I also gave that only a chance of 10% of happening, in the other 90% they stick to the books and revive him. So yes, while I had taken the opportunity to make a jab at them, the core of my prediction was that the only reason I can think of for why Jon could stay dead is trolling. I don't need more to expand that and will now give room to others so they can discuss what they think is going to happen with him.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

@Channel4: I offered a compromise to end the discussion here and now. People who are unhappy with the show find the writing decisions atrocious. People who are happy with the show can look over the writing decisions and decide for themselves that they can live with it. And I can live with people who think like that and don't feel the need to defend every inch of those decisions as absolutely necessary and pure genius at that. I don't want to derail the thread, so I'm just going to iterate the discussion that could spawn out of your comment myself.

 

 

How about: People who are unhappy with the show are irrationally unhappy because they want the show to be something it never can be: a line by line, 500 hour adaptation of the books. People who are happy with the show can enjoy it because they appreciate the extremely high quality production values, writing, acting, directing and score.

[Toth]

How about: People who are unhappy with the show are irrationally unhappy because they want the show to be something it never can be anymore: a line by line, 500 hour adaptation of the books A well written story in its own right. People who are happy with the show can enjoy it because they appreciate the extremely high quality production values, writing, acting, directing and score.

 

Fixed that for you.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Possible you're not a fan of the writing because it's not the books? You're in a pretty small minority and that minority (coincidentally) consists mainly of people who are die hard book fans. Unless you are just somehow smarter than all of the critics, Emmy voters, and fans who love the show. 

[julynnastarkfan]

I see your point, but Jon has been different from the beginning. Set apart from Ned and Robb, in name and path. As much as I loved them, they were just one thing. Ned--blinded by duty and doing the right thing. Robb--determined to be his father's son and swept up in the North's need for vengeance.

Jon, however, is more. He convinces Ned to keep the direwolves, he gives Arya her needle, he has an initial relationship on the road with Tyrion, becomes brothers with the NW AND is respected by the Wildlings. He is part of the thoughts that haunt Ned and Cat's one obvious flaw. He kills the first wight but prior to that Jeor and Aemon saw something special in him and started grooming him for leadership. In one way or another, he has crossed paths with someone from every main story line. (he's even wielding the sword that used to be Jorah's)

 

The parentage thing is huge as well. All those hints.

 

Also the unfinished aspect.

 

Ned--he tried to do what was right and failed, then compromised for the sake of his daughter, and Joffrey killed him. That was a clean ending. It started everything really, and if he hadn't died he would have taken the black, but he would never have been able to do what Jon did with the Wildlings. He'd never really been an outsider, Jon had as a bastard.

Robb--he was making good headway but there has to be a winner in a war, and he made a huge tactical mistake by betraying the Freys and trusting the Boltons. I wasn't happy he died and it was horrible and sad but it made sense.

 

Jon's death doesn't actually make sense unless the story at the Wall is over. Unless every dream in the book and all the references in the show to AA and R+L didn't really matter.

Who cares about the Wall if Olly and Alliser are running things? No one.

Who roots for humanity when the one LC who actually understood what his vows meant (ie Wildlings are people too and they aren't why the wall was built) is killed by his own men out of ignorance and fear?

 

Sure there are a lot of stories going on with tons of other characters, but the only story that was dealing with the seemingly unstoppable force of nature that is the WW was Jon's story. That's it. Cersei trying to keep her family on the throne, bandits in the Riverlands, FM training in Braavos, Dany trying to rule in Mereen... none of them have even hinted at being aware of or remotely prepared for one of the largest overall story lines in the series. The fact that zombies and their icy puppet masters are bringing back the long night. Without Jon... well, no story is that hopeless and dark.

 That is my thoughts too, I have always believed the story was about Jon, the other characters are just a part of his story

[A Ghost of Someone]

This whole story seems to be about Jon and Dany and one of them dying and staying dead at this point seems improbable, However, one could be put on "ice" for a while and make a dramatic comeback

[abacabb]

Every great tv show has at least one season where things don't go the way we had hoped for. All the hype and anticipation can also contribute to the effect something like season 5 had on many of its viewers. I think this season in particular was mostly disappointing simply because of where the story is.

 

 I really have faith in next season being the best we'll see which then leads to a final season to wrap everything up. If next year is disappointing then oh well.. but looking at all the events of this past season does lead me to believe that next season has to be the one that blows everyone out of their socks! I expect a shit load of blowback next year but if all we get is a bunch of setup for the series finale then bah what a waste.

 

And what I mean is, I sure as hell hope next year isn't just a bunch of filler scenes about this or that, something big has to happen and not just with this character or that character but across the board!

 

If they leave Jon out this season only to  return for the series finale then what a waste of time! They better bring his ass back by episode 3-4.

 

 

 That is my thoughts too, I have always believed the story was about Jon, the other characters are just a part of his story

 

No other character has had as much screentime and development as Jon Snow.. since season 1 he has been a major part of the storytelling and it's just obvious to me that the writing is using him as a ploy for a great shocker.. yea his death was shocking but so many main characters have died in GOT that the ultimate shocker would to bring one back, one that mattered... its like a reverse psycology of "the boy who cried wolf" characters keep dying and eventually your like immune to it.. but to bring a character back would be like the ultimate "gotcha!!"

[Daedric Justice]

Jon Snow is the next person in whom we placed the hope of the narrative

_____________

 

It's true that GRRM has so far killed off each "hero" character (the character in whom we placed our hopes) but he can't keep doing this indefinitely.  Think about it...if you follow that logic through to its natural conclusion then you might as well just seat Ramsey on the throne right now! 

 

I.e. if the most likeable or good character is always going to die then you will be left only with 'bad' or inconsequential characters and readers/viewers would surely lose interest. I got over Ned's death because there was the possibility of Robb getting revenge. I got over Robb's death because there was still Jon and Arya. If Jon and Arya both die then I will stop caring completely.

[Visceral Varys]

Jon Snow is the next person in whom we placed the hope of the narrative

_____________

 

It's true that GRRM has so far killed off each "hero" character (the character in whom we placed our hopes) but he can't keep doing this indefinitely.  Think about it...if you follow that logic through to its natural conclusion then you might as well just seat Ramsey on the throne right now! 

 

I.e. if the most likeable or good character is always going to die then you will be left only with 'bad' or inconsequential characters and readers/viewers would surely lose interest. I got over Ned's death because there was the possibility of Robb getting revenge. I got over Robb's death because there was still Jon and Arya. If Jon and Arya both die then I will stop caring completely.

 

This is the very thing that I worry about with this show. In another thread it was asked if we would stop watching if Jon was indeed dead. I'm not a Jon "fan" but if they kill off his character it will be the tipping point for me and many. I may check in with reviews to see what has happened but I never stay with any show or book if there is nothing to cling to.

 

There was another show we were watching and it was just one bummer after another and we gave up on it. It was like they couldn't give one spark of happy and it was too much. I really hope GOT doesn't make that mistake.

[Le Cygne]

I don't think he's dead, he's at center of the whole thing. I think maybe books and show, surprise is valued a bit too much. Surprise is a fine thing in a narrative, but it can be overdone. Sometimes the way something happens can be surprising, it's not such a bad thing for the reader to see something coming, it means the story has been told right.

[Rise Above]

Believing Jon is truly dead and gone from the story is dumb.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Follow the money. All the budget went on Hardhome not on the Battle of Winterfell. The money went on Jon's story. And if he was to be dead for good, then he would have died at Hardhome in episode 10 at the hands of the Night's King, and in an epic and brave duel where his death would have saved many lives and alerted Westeros to the very real WW threat and it would have meant something.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

In response to Toths comment about D&D only writing the next season when they finish the current one... How else are they meant to do it???

This doesn't also mean they don't have an overall plan for what they are doing or basic plot line to take them to the end. It's almost certain they do, as GRRM will have one and he will definitely have told them what it is.

The assertion that they are just making it up as they go along is naive and shows little understanding of what happens when you write TV shows.

The Sansa rape accusation is one that is just a malicious dig at D&D rather than one that comes from reasonable thinking. Again it's about bringing characters who are important into the main story. Even if Sansa was rallying the Vale it leaves her story entirely unconnected from everyone else. I don't know why that concept escapes everyone who complains here.

I'll say it again. For the millionth time. D&D have as one of their objectives to keep the huge mass of storylines as connected as possible so as to not bore and confuse people. That is the main reason for most of the decisions trolls on here moan about. Their motivation is to make the programme accessible, it's not about titilation.

[abacabb]

If Jon is done they would not have left his stabbing/death as a "cliffhanger" or major ending to a season. IMO

 

The other ambiguous deaths of the season finale are just a mask.

[Zoe Stark]

In response to Toths comment about D&D only writing the next season when they finish the current one... How else are they meant to do it???

This doesn't also mean they don't have an overall plan for what they are doing or basic plot line to take them to the end. It's almost certain they do, as GRRM will have one and he will definitely have told them what it is.

The assertion that they are just making it up as they go along is naive and shows little understanding of what happens when you write TV shows.

The Sansa rape accusation is one that is just a malicious dig at D&D rather than one that comes from reasonable thinking. Again it's about bringing characters who are important into the main story. Even if Sansa was rallying the Vale it leaves her story entirely unconnected from everyone else. I don't know why that concept escapes everyone who complains here.

I'll say it again. For the millionth time. D&D have as one of their objectives to keep the huge mass of storylines as connected as possible so as to not bore and confuse people. That is the main reason for most of the decisions trolls on here moan about. Their motivation is to make the programme accessible, it's not about titilation.

 

Precisely. They don't just sit in their writers' room saying, "HOW CAN WE GET EM THIS TIME DAN???? AHAHAHHAA." There is a "shock effect" that they try to achieve every once in a while, but everything they write somehow will bring along characters' story lines for the expansion of the plot, not to "troll" us. I don't understand how so many people are convinced that they make up huge, random shit up (like Jon's death or Sansa's changed arc) for the hell of it; it would be a waste of HBO's money and it would disrespect GRRM's work a great amount. No one is trying to screw the audience over, nor is anyone giving the audience what it wants (to an extent). There is an end game. There always has been. The show will end the way however D&D intend it to and it won't be a horrible disappointment. Some events might not turn out the way some want them to, but it will ultimately end the same way GRRM will end his story. They aren't just throwing curveballs to fuck around, they know what they're doing (with the Sand Snakes and Dorne as an exception, but I read somewhere that they regretted this as much as book readers hated it). They can't please everyone, obviously, and the show will continue to be independent from the books until maybe the last episode.