What would Rhaegar have named Jon had he lived?

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Then let me re-phase my question: Are we absolutely sure that Jon is Rhaegar's treueborn son? Correct me if I was wrong, are we talking about GRRM's book or some fantacy like cinderella?

Are we sure? No. We cannot be sure until the books are printed that confirm one way or the other. Am as highly convinced of the likelihood? Yes. The evidence set forth in the RLJ pinned threads -- as well as other threads discussing the marriage issue separately -- have convinced me that the likelihood that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar is quite high and the likelihood that Jon is the son of Rhaegar (either trueborn or bastard) is virtually guaranteed. Still not "sure" in the technical sense, but if Jon is the not the son of Rhaegar, then parts of the story just don't seem to make sense. The OP in the pinned RLJ thread is pretty good place to start for the evidence -- but not the only place where the analysis is persuasive. 

 

I can respect people who want to withhold judgment until the books come out to confirm. But anyone who is interested in engaging in supported literary analysis to figure out the clues regarding mysteries like whether Rhaegar is the father of Jon and whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is most likely -- IMHO -- to come to the conclusion that the books point strongly in the direction of Jon being the son (and actually the "trueborn son") of Rhaegar. But I understand that some people disagree -- and that is their right. But I think this thread simply assumed Rhaegar as the father -- given that the majority of people on this site seem to accept that conclusion.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The problem with all the Aemon foreshadowing is that it's not actually foreshadowing. Rhaegar died, Ned named the boy. If you're asking what would have happened in a hypothetical very different story that diverged from this one almost two decades before the starting point, nothing you find in this one counts as foreshadowing.

Now, it's possible that Rhaegar did actually come up with a name, and he told Lyanna, and she told Ned, and he told Howland, and Aemon Targaryen will be revealed to be Jon's real name. If that's what you expect to happen, you can look for foreshadowing in Jon's story. But if you don't think that happened, and are just looking for the counterfactual "what if" story, then there's no point in looking for it.

 

People like to imagine that Jon will cast aside everything he is and become Aegon / Aemon/ Viserys Targaryen, even to the point people wonder how he could get white hair or whether his eyes are not dark grey like we are told but a really dark purple! Its silly. His name is Jon, he looks like his mother's family, he was raised up North. He's never going to be the Targaryen poster boy.

 

I guess Viserys just didn't match up for them and Dany is Dany so they need another Targ proxy.

[Humble Maester]

Jon is named Jon as it is, no matter what we think. We also know by the word god that Ned named Jon what he is named.

We have no ground at all to speculate what Rhaegar would had named Jon. He might had named him some Viserysish if he had lived, but as we well know he didn't.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Judging from the other two, Rhaegar seems to be the type who would choose a traditional Targaryen name. The most frequent after Aegon, probably.

Lyanna however would likely prefer to name him Brandon like every other Stark and this would lead to their first fight.

 

(Because, if we are going to do what-ifs we may as well do them completed ;) )

[falcotron]

Then let me re-phase my question: Are we absolutely sure that Jon is Rhaegar's treueborn son? Correct me if I was wrong, are we talking about GRRM's book or some fantacy like cinderella?

Again, laying out and arguing over the evidence for Jon being Rhaegar's (bastard or trueborn) son has consumed (as of this moment) 150 threads, the latest of which is always stickied to the top of this forum, or just click here for #150, which starts off with a summary, FAQ, and links collection.

If you want to read the arguments, go there. If you want to dispute the arguments, go there. If you want anything more than what you've already been told--that most people who look into it are convinced, but not everyone--go there.

[WolfgangII]

Robert.

 

 

Seriously, I also believe it will be Aemon.

[Bael's Bastard]

Lygar

[Bael's Bastard]

Anything but Aenys.

[XSarellaX]

I also strongly support the theory that Jon's was suppose to be named Aemon. As further evidente, Dalla's son, an obvious parallel to Jon, is also named Aemon.

Besides, Aegon IV, Aegon V and Daemon Blackfyre's son Aegon had brothers named Aegon. Aegon II had one named very similarly. It seems it's quite traditional for an Aegon to have a brother named Aemon, and Rhaegar seems to be a very traditional guy...

I don't think Jon will suddenly become a Targaryens poster boy, as AryaNymeriaVisenya put it... He lacks emotional connection to his Targ relatives, Maester Aemon is (so far) the only one he's ever met. That's why finding out about his original name will be important. I second everyone that said it will help him accept the truth about his birth.

[averde]

Jon.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Juan

[John Doe]

Rhaegar had a plan?

[Julia H.]

^^^ I agree. Aemon seems the most logical and is foreshadowed.

 

Here are the quotes that you were looking for:

 

"But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well."

 

....edited to add that Jon ultimately chose honor, like Aemon did...hmmmm...

 

"Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool."

 

To the first quote: "Three times the old man had chosen" - I think we can safely say that by the end of ADwD Jon had also chosen honour instead of desertion at least three times. 

 

The paragraph right after the one that you quoted is also interesting:

 

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life - however long that might be - he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hands be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avange his father.

 

Doesn't the bolded part sound (and this paragraph is right after mentioning that Jon is not Aemon Targaryen) like his actual life? Eddard thinks that he has lived his lies for fourteen years. He dares not speak Jon's true name because any man who hears it could doom Jon to death. 

 

In addition, it can also foreshadow that one day Jon will know what his name (and life) could have been, but he will not share the secret with anyone, thus he will "live a lie" - a feeling that may be part of an identity crisis.

 

So I'm in the Aemon camp, because it seems that GRRM is teasing us with these quotes. However, I don't think it foreshadows that Jon will change his name. His "true name" is Jon. "Aemon Targaryen" is more like another R+L=J clue. However, it is possible that Jon will learn that it would have been his name (in accordance with Rhaegar's wish) and it may make the whole idea sound a bit more real to him, but it will always remain something that "could have been" but didn't happen. 

 

Regarding Rhaegar's plans, am I the only one who thinks that Elia being sickly and unable to give birth to any more children may be only part of the truth that Rhaegar knew? IIRC, we know about these things from Jon Connington, and he did not necessarily know everything about the family affairs. What if Elia suffered from an incurable disease and both she and Rhaegar knew that she would not live long? Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna in haste because otherwise Lyanna would have been married to Robert, so they could not wait - and Rhaegar decided to play the Targaryen polygamy card rather then lose her. In this case, it would not have been polygamy forever, and after Elia's death, Dorne had no reason to be offended. Rhaegar, however, probably had reason to hope that Aerys would not be king for a long time.

[The Dragons Hand]

My theory (and obviously only a theory -- no real proof) is that Rhaegar married Lyanna and intended to bring Lyanna and the baby back to KL (or perhaps to DS) and raise the baby, together with his other two children, to be prepared as the three heads of the dragon (i.e., trained to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0). Elia could not risk getting pregnant again, so even though Rhaegar would have two wives, he would only be intimate with Lyanna. Elia would still have the benefit of being the first wife and mother to the future King --  Aegon -- so she would accept the arrangement. Getting everyone to be ok with the polygamy aspect would have been a trick -- but I think Rhaegar thought he could get away with it.

People seem to forget the first bolded issue. Rhaegar wouldn't want to Aegon the 4th Princess Elia's Naerys if he is even a moderately good person, which everyone in-universe (Excluding Robert) seems to suggest he is.

[The Dragons Hand]

Anything but Aenys.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:
(Even though I pronounce it as "Rhaenys" without the Rh-prefix, no matter what George says.)

[Anath]

My theory (and obviously only a theory -- no real proof) is that Rhaegar married Lyanna and intended to bring Lyanna and the baby back to KL (or perhaps to DS) and raise the baby, together with his other two children, to be prepared as the three heads of the dragon (i.e., trained to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0). Elia could not risk getting pregnant again, so even though Rhaegar would have two wives, he would only be intimate with Lyanna. Elia would still have the benefit of being the first wife and mother to the future King --  Aegon -- so she would accept the arrangement. Getting everyone to be ok with the polygamy aspect would have been a trick -- but I think Rhaegar thought he could get away with it.

Not true. As you have acknowledged in other threads. No one ever mentioned that Elia could not risk getting pregnant. It was only stated that she couldn't have more children, not that she risked something in trying. She couldn't get pregnant. She could have sex, perhaps plenty, so she had zero reasons to accept Rhaegar only ever being intimate with Lyanna.

 

Elia would have only the benefit of having Lyanna Stark breathing down her neck - and she had no reason to believe in the sainted Lyanna's version. She had no reason to believe she would not be replaced as the future king's mother. Or that Lyanna wouldn't have tried to put an end to Aegon's very life. Rhaegar could give her no guarantees for Lyanna, no guarantees for their future children being little angels and no guarantees that he himself would not change his interpretation of the prophecy again as he did once. In fact, you think he changed it once again - believing that the PWWP was not Aegon but Jon. Hardly reassuring for Elia. I can just imagine the scene: Honey, you know the all-important prince is not Aegon but the son of my one true love! Isn't it wonderful Aren't you happy for me, Elia?

 

How do you imagine Elia would have reacted to this news? I cannot imagine her taking it well but I guess you think she would have because she trusted Rhaegar and his ever changing intertpretations that, weirdly, only worked to elevate Lyanna and push Elia down.

 

Anyway, I see no basis for your firm statement that "she would accept the arrangement".

 

Even if she did - which I don't believe - I think she would have tried to defy it at finding out that Aegon had sunk down in Rhaegar's esteem. Accepting that she'd just keep trusting in Rhaegar - and Lyanna! - at this point stretches credubility. But then again, you have already written that Elia's duty was going on with Rhaegar's wishes, so I suppose it's not Rhaegar and Lyanna's problem. Just Elia's. If she had been a good little doormat taking every piece of shit he threw at her, everything would have been just fine. Since Rhaegar, clearly, had no duties towards Elia, like upholding the tradition and law under which he married her.

[WSmith84]

I-was-meant-to-be-a-girl Targaryen?

[Lady Blackmont]

Viserys. Duh.

[Sly Wren]

I would also like to throw in the suggestion of Maekar. 

Or, given how hard the labor might have been, could see Lyanna's having insisted on Maegor.

[Fat Mac]

Hey, if Jon is truly a bastard, maybe it was Orys?