Sympathy for the Ned

[A Faceless Poster]

So a lot of criticism has been put upon Ned for how he handles the game, mainly about his trusting of the wrong people and his warning to Cersei. First I will defend his choices, but that is relatively unimportant for this post. Ned trusting littlefinger is no more of a mistake than anyone trusting him, the only difference is Ned died pretty quickly for his wrong placed trust. Tyrion allows the man to remain on the small council despite accusing him of a false crime, and ends up nearly as screwed as Ned by Littlefinger's plots and yet manages to live. So intelligence and being more practical does not guarantee protection from Littlefinger. Secondly can we really fault a man that much for trying to spare children? Not only is it a moral thing to do, but it is also somewhat practical. How do you think Tywin or even the rest of the realm would react to Cersei and her children being put to death? Tywin started a war over his least favorite child, do you think he would be passive to the death of more favored child at the hands of a man he has lent 3 million to? No I doubt it. Cersei's death would create a lot of chaos. Finally his warning of Cersei had nothing to do with Robert's death, Robert was already on his hunt and Cersei had already hatched her plan to kill Robert. Ned could have said nothing and Robert would still be dead. Varys puts a lot of unfair blame on Ned for what has happened, even asking why the common people must suffer during the game of thrones. Except Ned was trying to avoid the game like he has his entire life. He never tried to increase his power and he even tried to avoid the suffering of the innocent, so the man who cuts children's tongues out and uses them as pawns is in no way justified in criticizing Ned for causing the suffering of the innocent.

My main point though is that Ned recognized his inability to navigate the politics of the South. He desperately wanted to stay in Winterfell, even cursing at Maester Luwin and Catelyn for their urging him to go to King's Landing. He knew he was not up to it, his wife and closest advisor basically twisted his arm into doing it. He was rightly suspicious of Lysa's letter and while he wanted to investigate Jon Arryn's murder that still was not enough to compel him to go to King's Landing without Luwin and Catelyn compelling him to do so. So a man failed exactly where he expected to fail, in a nest of adders he knew he should have avoided. He remembered his father dying at the summoning of a king, and he rightly feared the same. Can we really fault a man for not being a good player in the game of thrones who knew he was not and only tried his hand at the game in his most desperate hour? Ned never had a chance while in the same city as Varys and Littlefinger, as we learned from Tyrion, outmaneuvering Cersei for power in the long run means nothing. Ned is a very tragic character, loaded with responsibilities he did not want or choose. He married the women that he was not supposed, became a lord when he was never groomed to be one, forced to keep many secrets as an honorable man that does not like to lie, and burdened with a promise from his dying sister that he feels he has failed while raising a son that is most likely not his creating tension in his marriage. Despite all this Ned keeps going, like a true soldier bravely marching to his death. There is a damn good reason three thousand men rally to the cause of Stannis for the sole purpose of saving the Ned's daughter, the North remembers and so should we that Ned Stark was no fool. A fool does not keep a peaceful and stable realm that is viewed nostalgically by nearly the entire North. Although honor is often the downfall of many, it is not something to be held in contempt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LC Dolorous]

On my first read I pictured awesome Ned-on-the-Wall stories when he was in his cell in KL and was convinced he would follow (a soon to die) Jeor Mormont as LC. It could have made for a lot of awesome father-son stories together with Jon, with a tragic end by either the father or the son getting killed by the Others. But then Joffrey happened...

[A Faceless Poster]

On my first read I pictured awesome Ned-on-the-Wall stories when he was in his cell in KL and was convinced he would follow (a soon to die) Jeor Mormont as LC. It could have made for a lot of awesome father-son stories together with Jon, with a tragic end by either the father or the son getting killed by the Others. But then Joffrey happened...

I feel like "but then Joffrey happened" sums up a good amount of the action in the first three books. 

[thi4f]

Eddard is Leto Atreides of ASoIaF. He didn't want to be 'honored' and was fully aware of his weaknesses and present dangers. But he did what he was supposed to do, the best way he could.

Of course I'd love him to team up with Renly or be less forthcoming to Cersei, but it wasn't his way. I respect that.

[Northern light]

One of the most misunderstood characters in ASOIAF by fans. Not liked by the cool kids in ASOIAF fandom. A victim of Martins Deus ex machina ambition in the series. King Robert killed by a boar in the correct moment.....

[A Faceless Poster]

Eddard is Leto Atreides of ASoIaF. He didn't want to be 'honored' and was fully aware of his weaknesses and present dangers. But he did what he was supposed to do, the best way he could.

Of course I'd love him to team up with Renly or be less forthcoming to Cersei, but it wasn't his way. I respect that.

Yeah I wish he teamed up with Renly, but I think he would have if Renly had not left the city. Renly's offer was poorly timed, and it rubbed Ned who was sad about his dying friend the wrong way so Ned rebuked him. When he had time to think he asks for littlefingers support and also counted on Renly's support, but Renly had left King's Landing. So it once again becomes sad, because if Renly had waited before making his offer and stayed in King's Landing the Ned Renly team up almost certainly would happen. I have no idea what would happen after that, but it does not really matter.

[Julia H.]

So a lot of criticism has been put upon Ned for how he handles the game, mainly about his trusting of the wrong people and his warning to Cersei. First I will defend his choices, but that is relatively unimportant for this post. Ned trusting littlefinger is no more of a mistake than anyone trusting him, the only difference is Ned died pretty quickly for his wrong placed trust. Tyrion allows the man to remain on the small council despite accusing him of a false crime, and ends up nearly as screwed as Ned by Littlefinger's plots and yet manages to live. So intelligence and being more practical does not guarantee protection from Littlefinger. Secondly can we really fault a man that much for trying to spare children? Not only is it a moral thing to do, but it is also somewhat practical. How do you think Tywin or even the rest of the realm would react to Cersei and her children being put to death? Tywin started a war over his least favorite child, do you think he would be passive to the death of more favored child at the hands of a man he has lent 3 million to? No I doubt it. Cersei's death would create a lot of chaos. Finally his warning of Cersei had nothing to do with Robert's death, Robert was already on his hunt and Cersei had already hatched her plan to kill Robert. Ned could have said nothing and Robert would still be dead. Varys puts a lot of unfair blame on Ned for what has happened, even asking why the common people must suffer during the game of thrones. Except Ned was trying to avoid the game like he has his entire life. He never tried to increase his power and he even tried to avoid the suffering of the innocent, so the man who cuts children's tongues out and uses them as pawns is in no way justified in criticizing Ned for causing the suffering of the innocent.

My main point though is that Ned recognized his inability to navigate the politics of the South. He desperately wanted to stay in Winterfell, even cursing at Maester Luwin and Catelyn for their urging him to go to King's Landing. He knew he was not up to it, his wife and closest advisor basically twisted his arm into doing it. He was rightly suspicious of Lysa's letter and while he wanted to investigate Jon Arryn's murder that still was not enough to compel him to go to King's Landing without Luwin and Catelyn compelling him to do so. So a man failed exactly where he expected to fail, in a nest of adders he knew he should have avoided. He remembered his father dying at the summoning of a king, and he rightly feared the same. Can we really fault a man for not being a good player in the game of thrones who knew he was not and only tried his hand at the game in his most desperate hour? Ned never had a chance while in the same city as Varys and Littlefinger, as we learned from Tyrion, outmaneuvering Cersei for power in the long run means nothing. Ned is a very tragic character, loaded with responsibilities he did not want or choose. He married the women that he was not supposed, became a lord when he was never groomed to be one, forced to keep many secrets as an honorable man that does not like to lie, and burdened with a promise from his dying sister that he feels he has failed while raising a son that is most likely not his creating tension in his marriage. Despite all this Ned keeps going, like a true soldier bravely marching to his death. There is a damn good reason three thousand men rally to the cause of Stannis for the sole purpose of saving the Ned's daughter, the North remembers and so should we that Ned Stark was no fool. A fool does not keep a peaceful and stable realm that is viewed nostalgically by nearly the entire North. Although honor is often the downfall of many, it is not something to be held in contempt.

 

 

 

Excellent post.  :agree: Well said.

[LC Dolorous]

This posting and the Ned himself do indeed get too little credit, honour shouldn't be something that is lookep down upon

[A Bastard Snow]

Eddard is Leto Atreides of ASoIaF. He didn't want to be 'honored' and was fully aware of his weaknesses and present dangers. But he did what he was supposed to do, the best way he could.
Of course I'd love him to team up with Renly or be less forthcoming to Cersei, but it wasn't his way. I respect that.

That's like the first Dune reference I have ever seen on the forum.

[thi4f]

That's like the first Dune reference I have ever seen on the forum.

 

Could you please elaborate? I don't have much experience on the forum so if it was brought up repeatedly, then sorry.

[A Bastard Snow]

 
Could you please elaborate? I don't have much experience on the forum so if it was brought up repeatedly, then sorry.

Dune It's a Science fiction novel.Leto the Just was head of House Atreides a great moral and honorable man.(Ned Stark) whose family is betrayed by a House no one likes House Harkonnen (Lannisters)
Oh and his grandkids? Are attacked by lions when they are kids as a plot to assassinate them.
Also his son has to wander in a wasteland and drink/eat weird stuff to transcend his humanity (Bran).

Hm...also Leto is tricked into leaving his home just like Ned was.

[thi4f]

So you agree to some extent with me. ;)

I think that Eddard situation is very similar to Leto's. Common themes:

1) They are ordered to relocate to a distant place to serve monarchs (Eddard to KL as Hand, Leto taking over Arrakis fief)

2) They are reluctant because these missions pose a great danger to their houses

3) They are right in their suspicions (Eddard never sees Winterfell again, and Leto leaves Caladan for good too)

4) So why do they this? Because it's their duty

5) Their rival houses (Lannister & Harkonnen) prepare coup d'etat upon their arrival

6) They are betrayed by dark haired, average in built but awesome in mental department guys (Littlefinger & Wellington Yueh) and one could argue they do it because of love to a woman

7) They have similar personalities and sets of traits.

 

Both are succeeded by strong mother & talented, 15-year old son duos (Catelyn-Robb, Jessica-Paul).

We can also observe some similarities between Jon and Bran development beyond the Wall and Paul's growth among the deserts... growing with tribes able to cope with harsh conditions (Wildlings and Fremens)... learning their impressive skills (climbing the Wall and riding Shai Hulud)... having their first love in caves with wild girls...

and eventually become messianic figures with God-like abilities!

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I believe that a lot of criticism that Ned gets is based on readers' benefit of hindsight. Something the characters can't have.

 

However, Ned did make some mistakes that he could have avoided, had he been a bit more distrusting: for examble, he could have confronted Cersei after having secured his daughters' way out and not before. This is due IMO to Ned's character, not being able to conceive people's potential for the absolutely worst in its full extent. But, that's a rather endearing trait of The Ned, albeit potentially disastrous.

 

All in all, I love Ned and I agree that his flaws are really overblown, while his competence extremely underrated/disregarded.

[James of the Blackwater]

I really like Ned, but I don't have sympathy for him, his honor did him in, but I still really like him, he was a great and honorable man, a great Lord of the North, but not a great Hand of the King.

[The Santa of House Claus]

This posting and the Ned himself do indeed get too little credit, honour shouldn't be something that is lookep down upon

 

I shouldn't be, but it is by to much of the fandom. Though I think that is only because of the length of time between book releases, we chat, debate, and argue so much that slowly we make the good guys less good and the bad guys less bad just to keep things going. I mean all the chatacters were a shade of gray to begin with. Throw in far to much over evaluation, and bam, Ned is an idiot because we are judging based on hinesight, knowing the future of the series, and hours, nay days, of analysizing the events.

[David Selig]

 

He desperately wanted to stay in Winterfell, even cursing at Maester Luwin and Catelyn for their urging him to go to King's Landing. He knew he was not up to it, his wife and closest advisor basically twisted his arm into doing it. He was rightly suspicious of Lysa's letter and while he wanted to investigate Jon Arryn's murder that still was not enough to compel him to go to King's Landing without Luwin and Catelyn compelling him to do so.

How the hell was Ned compelled to do anything here?

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

I believe that a lot of criticism that Ned gets is based on readers' benefit of hindsight. Something the characters can't have.

 

However, Ned did make some mistakes that he could have avoided, had he been a bit more distrusting: for examble, he could have confronted Cersei after having secured his daughters' way out and not before. This is due IMO to Ned's character, not being able to conceive people's potential for the absolutely worst in its full extent. But, that's a rather endearing trait of The Ned, albeit potentially disastrous.

 

All in all, I love Ned and I agree that his flaws are really overblown, while his competence extremely underrated/disregarded.

 

Wasn't one of Ned's problems that Sansa blabbed about leaving King's Landing to Cersei because she didn't want to go.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Wasn't one of Ned's problems that Sansa blabbed about leaving King's Landing to Cersei because she didn't want to go.

 

That was after he had already confronted Cersei.

So, Cersei could have acted and perhaps succeeded without Sansa's help, while Sansa couldn't have talked to Cersei if she had been taken away already.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Needs paragraphs. 

[GuardstheRealmsofMen]

Honestly, Ned was a good man who was bad at his job. 

 

I don't see any evidence that he was a bad husband, a bad father, or a bad Warden of the North. Once he got to King's Landing, he made terrible decisions and got himself killed. That's okay. I would be a terrible race car driver, head chef, or FBI agent. Nobody taught me how to do those things.

 

Just like nobody gave me the opportunity to drive regular cars, work in a small restaurant, or be a beat cop before attempting these high pressure jobs, nobody let Ned be a small time player or even a counsel member before becoming Hand of the King. One could argue that Warden of the North is training, but it has been well established that King's Landing has a highly different political climate than the North. 

 

So Ned was a terrible Hand. Perfectly understandable. I don't understand when people try to say that he wasn't so bad at it, but I certainly would never hold that against him. He just didn't know how it do it.