Why Aerys II and Rhaella lost so many children

[Lady Blizzardborn]

My husband's mother is Rh negative, and both he and his sister are Rh positive. Both pregnancies made her extremely sick, even with the shot, and she had a third pregnancy that landed her in the hospital and she almost died. After that, she sadly had to abort the third baby. Unless there are documented histories of Rhaella being deathly ill during her pregnancies (which I honestly can't recall if there are, so please feel free to let me know if you find them) then it seems unlikely this was the cause.

 

Pycelle murdering the babies makes sense, though what would his motivations be? Was he in league with Varys in gaslighting Aerys?

Nope. Rhaella was fine until Dany's birth.

 

Remember that Pycelle was not just a maester but Grand Maester of Westeros.  He would have very strong ties to the Citadel and one of the most common theories about how the dragons ended up dying off (aside from the mass-murder in the dragonpit) is that the Citadel wanted them gone and had the maesters poisoning them or otherwise monkeying with them to produce progressively weaker and more sickly offspring.

 

 

Well, I'm not a blood specialist. I only know that it takes many genes and combinations to have the final Rh type. And it's all hypothetical on a fantasy world. A large tinfoil hat, if you will. 

 

Another scientific crackpot... auto immune rejection. My aunt had this problem after her first child, who is perfectly fine. Every child after, she developed antibodies against it and miscarried, herself not being ill. I don't know exactly the name of the Syndrome, but she lost four babies and did not try again.

 

I have not looked into historical cases of inbreeding and the toll it took on the offspring. 

 

Never in the history of the Targs had there been so many miscarriages and stillbirths. Was it incest overload? Was it poison? Who knows. Just throwing cents here. 

 

:)

There's a blood group anomaly that a couple of researchers recently discovered Henry VIII might have had that could have caused the fertility problems in his wives and mistresses.  It usually results in a healthy firstborn and then the loss of subsequent pregnancies.  Looking at the male relatives of his going back to Elizabeth Woodville's mother, and looking at their wives' pregnancy histories, they think EW's mom was the source.  The gene runs through the maternal line, but only the male's children are affected by the issue and only when the mother lacks the same gene.

So again, given that Aerys and Rhaella were full siblings to full siblings, descended from a long line of other full siblings (thought not Aegon and Betha, or Maekar and Dyanna), it's likely they both had exactly the same blood group anomalies, if any.

 

 

It Pycelle was behind it, I don't know if we can necessarily assume it was on the orders of Tywin. The Maesters themselves might have a reason to ensure that the Targ dynasty came to a formal end.

 

And there are cases of multiple failed births in Targ lineage. Maegar the Cruel, for example.

Interestingly, in Maegor's case there is a baby that was lost and one of his other wives went to him and told him that she had been poisoning the mother so she would lose the baby.  I guess Tyanna wanted to be the one to provide an heir for Maegor.  He had her "female parts" removed, then her body torn to pieces and fed to his dogs. Hence "the Cruel."

 

So in that one case at least there was poison used.

[Jasta11]

 

The funny thing about Aerys is that even in his deepest paranoia, he believed in people who had taken vows to be loyal to him. I find it very revealing that in the end the two people who betrayed Aerys, Pycelle and Jaime, were people he trusted because of the vows they had taken. I don't think Aerys could conceive of Pycelle betraying him. And if there was a conspiracy in the citadel against the Targaryens, then Pycelle led it because he was the head of the Citadel for over forty years.

 

ETA: Also, the one thing we are told about Pycelle is that he is a master of poisons.

 

The Grand Maester is not the head of the Citadel. The council of Archmaesters are. The GM is an ambassador of sorts.

 

And Aerys may trust Pycelle, but it's still a terribly huge risk to poison a king's children. No amount of trust will save Pycelle if he is caught, or if Aerys decides to investigate the deaths because of one dead child too many. And Pycelle is never characterized as a very courageous man who would risk everything for anyone else, whenever it is the Citadel conspiracy or Tywin. Varys, who knows more than us probably, claims that he loves his office above all else, poisoning Aerys's children is definitely at odds with this, it puts him in potential danger more than anything else.

 

Besides, the history of the Targaryen is rife with complicated pregancies. Unless one believes that every Targaryen in history had a Maester nearby to poison their offspring, it's hard to attribute this to external factors. Even moreso because of the accumulated incest baggage, and the Targaryen's inherent magical nature may cause problems as well (explaining why their stillborns often look like half-dragon abominations). Rhaella also lived in a highly unhappy marriage, which causes stress and doesn't help. Pycelle's intervention is most definitely not required to explain the queen's difficult pregnancies.

 

Besides, now that Pycelle suffers from a bad case of the dead, I'm not sure how we could get the theory validated.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

The Grand Maester is not the head of the Citadel. The council of Archmaesters are. The GM is an ambassador of sorts.

 

And Aerys may trust Pycelle, but it's still a terribly huge risk to poison a king's children. No amount of trust will save Pycelle if he is caught, or if Aerys decides to investigate the deaths because of one dead child too many. And Pycelle is never characterized as a very courageous man who would risk everything for anyone else, whenever it is the Citadel conspiracy or Tywin. Varys, who knows more than us probably, claims that he loves his office above all else, poisoning Aerys's children is definitely at odds with this, it puts him in potential danger more than anything else.

 

Besides, the history of the Targaryen is rife with complicated pregancies. Unless one believes that every Targaryen in history had a Maester nearby to poison their offspring, it's hard to attribute this to external factors. Even moreso because of the accumulated incest baggage, and the Targaryen's inherent magical nature may cause problems as well (explaining why their stillborns often look like half-dragon abominations). Rhaella also lived in a highly unhappy marriage, which causes stress and doesn't help. Pycelle's intervention is most definitely not required to explain the queen's difficult pregnancies.

 

Besides, now that Pycelle suffers from a bad case of the dead, I'm not sure how we could get the theory validated.

If he had orders from the Citadel there are a number of people who could confirm that. Pate/FM, Sam, Alleras/Sarella, Marwyn, random Archmaester #7, possibly old man Hightower--though he's a less likely bet.

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

It wasn't until the advent of modern medicine that childbirth wasn't a crapshoot.

The odds of children living to adulthood was low- the rate of stillbirths high- the odds of mothers dying was also high by our standards.

In fact, it is only recently where the concept of dying of old age was common.  To our close ancestors, death was around every corner.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Pycelle had been poisoning the children, you'd expect he results to be more similar to each other. There's quite the difference between causing a miscarriage, and causing the death of a child a year after his birth.

 
Rhaegar was born at Summerhall and was delivered by a different maester. After that he was at Dragonstone until Aerys became king. Rhaegar was about three years old then. Far to old and healthy for Pycelle to make it look like just another sickly infant dying.

And where does this knowledge come from? How are we certain that Pycelle had not been at Summerhall? He was Grand Maester, and Rhaegars birth was expected.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Incest is a good explanation.

 

But, the reality, is very common in Middle Age to a couple have many children and many of them die in young age. For example, Edward I had 16 children with Eleonor of Castille, but only five survived to adulthood (4 daughters and 1 son).

[The Green King]

the stillborn of 270 AL, was likely not a stillborn, and likely not Aerys' child.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

the stillborn of 270 AL, was likely not a stillborn, and likely not Aerys' child.

How so?

[bent branch]

 

The Grand Maester is not the head of the Citadel. The council of Archmaesters are. The GM is an ambassador of sorts.

 

And Aerys may trust Pycelle, but it's still a terribly huge risk to poison a king's children. No amount of trust will save Pycelle if he is caught, or if Aerys decides to investigate the deaths because of one dead child too many. And Pycelle is never characterized as a very courageous man who would risk everything for anyone else, whenever it is the Citadel conspiracy or Tywin. Varys, who knows more than us probably, claims that he loves his office above all else, poisoning Aerys's children is definitely at odds with this, it puts him in potential danger more than anything else.

 

Besides, the history of the Targaryen is rife with complicated pregancies. Unless one believes that every Targaryen in history had a Maester nearby to poison their offspring, it's hard to attribute this to external factors. Even moreso because of the accumulated incest baggage, and the Targaryen's inherent magical nature may cause problems as well (explaining why their stillborns often look like half-dragon abominations). Rhaella also lived in a highly unhappy marriage, which causes stress and doesn't help. Pycelle's intervention is most definitely not required to explain the queen's difficult pregnancies.

 

Besides, now that Pycelle suffers from a bad case of the dead, I'm not sure how we could get the theory validated.

 

I read the Conclave's insistence that only they could make or unmake a GM as them asserting their independence from the crown in running their own affairs and that only they could choose their own leader. YMMV

 

Pycelle presented the appearance of being a timid man, but we know he did murder people when he could make it look "natural" (Jon Arryn). And he himself said that if the boar had not done such a good job on Robert that he was willing to finish the task. So Pycelle openly admitted he was up for some kingslaying. Seems to me he had plenty of balls for killing a few babies.

 

We are only told of two times of stillborns looking like half-dragon abominations. Over the course of three hundred years that is not often. And most Targaryens had plenty of live healthy children. Not having children is the exception rather than the rule.

 

GRRM has said we will know everything regarding the truth behind Robert's Rebellion. I'm sure he will find a way to tell us about what was happening to Aerys.

 

If Pycelle had been poisoning the children, you'd expect he results to be more similar to each other. There's quite the difference between causing a miscarriage, and causing the death of a child a year after his birth.

And where does this knowledge come from? How are we certain that Pycelle had not been at Summerhall? He was Grand Maester, and Rhaegars birth was expected.

 

Actually, if Pycelle was murdering the children I would expect it to look different each time. Killing them the same way each time would make it beyond clear that someone was killing them and Pycelle would quickly come to the top of the list. However, if you have a miscarriage here, a stillbirth there and a crib death over there it just seems like a terrible misfortune. And that is definitely how most readers are seeing it.

 

However, GRRM has set it up that in each of the children who live has something exceptional about their birth that makes them stand out from the ones that died. In Rhaegar's case he was born at Summerhall. In Viserys' case Aerys took extraordinary measures to assure he would live. And in Daenerys' case she was born on Dragonstone. This leaves two different ways of reading this situation.

 

1.  Aerys and Rhaella had difficulties having children and this fact made Aerys crazy with grief. His accusations that someone was killing his children had no basis in reality.

 

2.  Someone was killing Aerys and Rhaella's children and Aerys realized this. However, he couldn't figure out who was doing this or how they were doing it. He flailed about trying to change the situation. Finally, with Viserys' birth he took crazy measures to save Viserys' life and Viserys lived.

 

I don't believe in coincidences in literature and Viserys' survival was to me the undeniable proof that someone was killing Aerys' children. GRRM has purposely given us a situation where the only children who lived had exceptional births in some way. I read this as Aerys was NOT crazy when it came to his suspicions that some one was killing his children. That he never suspected Pycelle is an indication of his unwavering faith in the institutions of Westeros.

 

It is more of an assumption that Pycelle was at Summerhall when the tragedy occurred than to assume he was in KL, especially since he never once references being at Summerhall during that awful tragedy.

[Knight and Dayne]

Agree with a lot of this Re: Pycelle. The damning evidence for me was that the children Pycelle didn't have access to the kids survived (that's been mentioned, but I'd like to reiterate it.) 

 

We also know that dynastic incest predated the Targs by a lot - it's a Valyrian custom the Targs fought tooth and nail to maintain, even after they gave up polygamy. While difficult births are common with Targs, we really only know about dead Targ babies that Maesters would have had access to. 

 

I wrote a couple long things about Aerys being driven mad, rather than having some sort of Targ crazy gene (see signature). What's interesting to me is that Aerys' paranoia surrounding Viserys' birth predates Duskendale, which is his pretty clear breaking point. 

 

The differing deaths of Rhaella's kids is a good point, but we also know that Pycelle's got a lot of poisons in his cabinet, and he might be the most competent poisoner this side of the Narrow Sea. Means, motive, and opportunity.

[Mithras]

Foreshadowing to Dany's death in childbirth. So far, Dany had two problematic pregnancies. The first one was a typical Targaryen deformity and the next one was a miscarriage due to food poisoning.

[Grayce Hornwood]

^ Did she actually eat any of the locusts? I can't remember. If not the locusts, then to what food poisoning are you referring?

[Mithras]

^ Did she actually eat any of the locusts? I can't remember. If not the locusts, then to what food poisoning are you referring?

 

Green berries.

 

Interesting stuff about nightshade:

 

Bittersweet is its common name.

 

Just past midday she came upon a bush growing by the stream, its twisted limbs covered with hard green berries. Dany squinted at them suspiciously, then plucked one from a branch and nibbled at it. Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her. 

 

Symptoms: Digestive disorders, such as Stomachache, salivation, diarrhea, liver problems.

 

An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on. She spent the rest of that day retching up green slime.

 

An important thing to note that In any case, it should never be administered to pregnant women because it can cause abortion easily.

 

Seems like nightshade is the reason for Dany's abortion.

 

ETA:

 

The boy considered for a moment. “I could teach them the arms of the great Houses, and how Queen Alysanne convinced King Jaehaerys to abolish the first night. And they could teach me which weeds are best for making poisons, and whether those green berries are safe to eat.”

“They could,” Dunk agreed, “but before you get to King Jaehaerys, you’d best help us teach them how to use a spear. And don’t go eating anything that Maester [the mule Aemon gave them as a gift] won’t.”

 

Dany did not have a mule to serve as a food taster.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Yeah, see I totally forgot about the berries. Thanks!

[Darkstream]

 
Green berries.
 
Interesting stuff about nightshade:
 
Bittersweet is its common name.
 
Just past midday she came upon a bush growing by the stream, its twisted limbs covered with hard green berries. Dany squinted at them suspiciously, then plucked one from a branch and nibbled at it. Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her. 
 
Symptoms: Digestive disorders, such as Stomachache, salivation, diarrhea, liver problems.
 
An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on. She spent the rest of that day retching up green slime.
 
An important thing to note that In any case, it should never be administered to pregnant women because it can cause abortion easily.
 
Seems like nightshade is the reason for Dany's abortion.
 
ETA:
 
The boy considered for a moment. I could teach them the arms of the great Houses, and how Queen Alysanne convinced King Jaehaerys to abolish the first night. And they could teach me which weeds are best for making poisons, and whether those green berries are safe to eat.
They could, Dunk agreed, but before you get to King Jaehaerys, youd best help us teach them how to use a spear. And dont go eating anything that Maester [the mule Aemon gave them as a gift] wont.
 
Dany did not have a mule to serve as a food taster.

Nice catch on the quote from D&E, I would have never connected that. Which story was that from?

Also, these GREEN berries, I believe yout refered to as nightshade, are these the same berries that the warlocks use? I thought they were blue?

ETA: Sorry, just noticed you called them bittersweet, but what's the reference to nightshade further down?

[The Dragons Hand]

I think by the end we'll be kind of surprised that Aerys wasn't as insane as he seemed and some of his thoughts were partially justified.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
Actually, if Pycelle was murdering the children I would expect it to look different each time. Killing them the same way each time would make it beyond clear that someone was killing them and Pycelle would quickly come to the top of the list. However, if you have a miscarriage here, a stillbirth there and a crib death over there it just seems like a terrible misfortune. And that is definitely how most readers are seeing it.
 
However, GRRM has set it up that in each of the children who live has something exceptional about their birth that makes them stand out from the ones that died. In Rhaegar's case he was born at Summerhall. In Viserys' case Aerys took extraordinary measures to assure he would live. And in Daenerys' case she was born on Dragonstone. This leaves two different ways of reading this situation.
 
1.  Aerys and Rhaella had difficulties having children and this fact made Aerys crazy with grief. His accusations that someone was killing his children had no basis in reality.
 
2.  Someone was killing Aerys and Rhaella's children and Aerys realized this. However, he couldn't figure out who was doing this or how they were doing it. He flailed about trying to change the situation. Finally, with Viserys' birth he took crazy measures to save Viserys' life and Viserys lived.
 
I don't believe in coincidences in literature and Viserys' survival was to me the undeniable proof that someone was killing Aerys' children. GRRM has purposely given us a situation where the only children who lived had exceptional births in some way. I read this as Aerys was NOT crazy when it came to his suspicions that some one was killing his children. That he never suspected Pycelle is an indication of his unwavering faith in the institutions of Westeros.
 
It is more of an assumption that Pycelle was at Summerhall when the tragedy occurred than to assume he was in KL, especially since he never once references being at Summerhall during that awful tragedy.

What makes you think Pycelle had no access to Viserys? If Aerys' own maester was not allowed to examine and ensure the health of the child, who is?

[slant]

Rhaella could not touch Viserys. The wet nurse had a poison tester. 

 

No one was caught, so either the Pycelle knew he would get caught, or stopped for some other reason. 

[Mithras]

I think by the end we'll be kind of surprised that Aerys wasn't as insane as he seemed and some of his thoughts were partially justified.

 

I would consider that as trolling, not as a twist.

[bent branch]

What makes you think Pycelle had no access to Viserys? If Aerys' own maester was not allowed to examine and ensure the health of the child, who is?

 

I don't think that Pycelle had no access to Viserys. I only think that since Aerys was having everyone's interactions with Viserys so closely watched that it was too dangerous for Pycelle to do anything to Viserys.