Heresy 175

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 175, this week’s edition of the original and best Heresy thread founded in 2011and still taking an in-depth, and often a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire and more particularly what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones but what’s happening in the North, in the Otherlands above the Wall.

 

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree much with each other very often. Instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall itself, with those mysterious Otherlands which lie beyond; with warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

 

If new to the game, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

 

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially that vastly under-rated date of1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and sometimes even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

 

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. Be warned though that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded.

 

Beyond that, read on…

[Black Crow]

Dear Ralph,

 

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

 

All best,

George R.R. Martin

 

 

 

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

 

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[WhitewolfStark]

Wasn't 175 supposed to  be the essay thread, or am I mixing things up?

@BC from the last thread

Indeed, which is why I look at Preston's videos where he examines the commonalities. To me it's all about looking at what themes fascinate Martin consistently, and theorize how he might employ them or not in ASOIAF.

We may propose some strange and outlandish things along the way, but at least we'll have fun. ;-)

[Sly Wren]

Wasn't 175 supposed to  be the essay thread, or am I mixing things up?

Yeah. But given that all content will be lost between the last attempt at forum upgrade and when they do finally upgrade the forum--essays are postponed until the after the upgrade. Can PM Wolfmaid7 for details.

[WhitewolfStark]

Yeah. But given that all content will be lost between the last attempt at forum upgrade and when they do finally upgrade the forum--essays are postponed until the after the upgrade. Can PM Wolfmaid7 for details.

 

Dang, I was really looking forward to reading them. Dang website upgrades *goes off in a corner and mutters darkly*.

[Prince of Ghost]

Prince of Ghost, on 27 Jul 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

It would be interesting to add to JNR's theory that Craster's sons were used as a blood sacrifice to create the bodies for the white walkers and the shadows go into that body.

 

That is just my two cents however.

WP

Is THAT where he was going?  First I heard it to my memory but then again I can't check.

 

 

 

I can't speak for him but that was just something I had thought of myself. A kind of combination of the popular Craster's Sons= White Walkers and JNR's Shadows theory (The Origins of the Others Theory). 

[Melifeather]

I wonder if there's a way to backup the Heresy thread each night in case it's deleted?

[TheMiddleHero]

Need to sit down and figure out how to quote from older threads, but here's VoFM's quote:

 

 

You are Pact-bound to aid these First Men who keep getting themselves into trouble, because they are stupid. You've been doing it for 10,000 years, and your race is now fading into the ether. Are you going to go out of your way for them? Nah. You'll sit at home, chill with friends, do drugs, and surf the web until doomsday. But, if they come a-knockin', you are honor-bound to assist them. You keep your promises, because you know, unlike them, that words are more than wind. You know that there are cold consequences to pay if you betray the gods.

 

 

Refresh my memory, but do we know enough about the Pact to determine if they are bound to help?

 

Really thought it was more a peace pact.

[Voice]

Need to sit down and figure out how to quote from older threads, but here's VoFM's quote:

 

 

 

Refresh my memory, but do we know enough about the Pact to determine if they are bound to help?

 

Really thought it was more a peace pact.

 

Nope, we don't know enough to make the claim with absolute certainty. Quite true. I was expounding on two ideas that had been mentioned earlier in the thread. First, that the obsidian offerings might originate with the Pact. Second, that First Men adopted the Old Gods following the Pact.

 

A point I've made in prior Heresies is that by the time of the Andal Invasion, First Men would have more closely resembled their dappled, three-fingered neighbors in terms of culture, language, and religion than these newcomers speaking the Common Tongue and smiting their foes in the name of the Seven.

[TheMiddleHero]

 

Nope, we don't know enough to make the claim with absolute certainty. Quite true. I was expounding on two ideas that had been mentioned earlier in the thread. First, that the obsidian offerings might originate with the Pact. Second, that First Men adopted the Old Gods following the Pact.

 

A point I've made in prior Heresies is that by the time of the Andal Invasion, First Men would have more closely resembled their dappled, three-fingered neighbors in terms of culture, language, and religion than these newcomers speaking the Common Tongue and smiting their foes in the name of the Seven.

 

Quite possible, and could see that myself.

 

But at this point they would be helping the Andals as well (who turned anything south of The Neck into a horror show for the Children, after the Pact, and themselves lack any kind of "Pact.")

 

I guess I look at it from more of a perspective that Native Americans/Mayans/Incas might. Many pacts made with their enemy from several crossings of several different countries and cultures never turning out quite how they liked, or even honored over time. If they had the power that the CotF have to crush land masses and split continents and so on, they would have used it.

 

Though typing that, I wonder. With their greenseers (well with how we think they work) and such, how did the CotF not see the arrivals of the FM and Andals? How did they not see their possible demise?

[Lord Ravenstark]

One thing always bothered me… how the hell did Westeros end up talking the Common Tongue instead of the Old Tongue? Of course one could say the First Men adopted the culture of the Andals, as the Hungarians did, but it simply makes no sense for places like the North and the Wildlings beyond the Wall. The only explanation I have for this is that the Common Tongue was not the Andal language, but the First Man language that evolved separately from the Old Tongue, the Andals, being in much lesser numbers and in a great deal of Westeros conquering through marriages, adopted the First Men language. Of course, that doesn't make much sense either, but neither does the North using he Common Tongue.

[TheSmallOther]

One thing always bothered me… how the hell did Westeros end up talking the Common Tongue instead of the Old Tongue? Of course one could say the First Men adopted the culture of the Andals, as the Hungarians did, but it simply makes no sense for places like the North and the Wildlings beyond the Wall. The only explanation I have for this is that the Common Tongue was not the Andal language, but the First Man language that evolved separately from the Old Tongue, the Andals, being in much lesser numbers and in a great deal of Westeros conquering through marriages, adopted the First Men language. Of course, that doesn't make much sense either, but neither does the North using he Common Tongue.

 

How different are these languages? Perhaps the difference is not so big and adaptation is not very hard. Both First Men and Andals came to Westeros, just at different time. Perhaps they were originally close to each other.

[Eira Seren]

 

Prince of Ghost, on 27 Jul 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

WP

Is THAT where he was going?  First I heard it to my memory but then again I can't check.

 

 

 

I can't speak for him but that was just something I had thought of myself. A kind of combination of the popular Craster's Sons= White Walkers and JNR's Shadows theory (The Origins of the Others Theory). 

 

 

Though I don't really know about Craster using assassins (who would he want to assassinate?).  So if there's any credence to what Craster's doing, it's probably because he's got the wrong end of the stick and thinks the Others are interested in sacrifices in order to keep them away.  Not sure still if he just uses the story of the Others as a scare tactic to help keep his wives in line.  But on the show, things are way different.

 

 

How different are these languages? Perhaps the difference is not so big and adaptation is not very hard. Both First Men and Andals came to Westeros, just at different time. Perhaps they were originally close to each other.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the Common Tongue grew out of the First Men interacting with the Old Races.  Though Bran does seem to have a different take on the Singer's language, and am not sure I hear a lot of unearthly beauty rattling off too many tongues.  Sarcasm, definitely (Jaime, Tyrion, Jon. . .)

[Black Crow]

I would imagine that the common tongue is akin to English gradually taking over from Welsh and Gaelic.

[Prince of Ghost]

 
Though I don't really know about Craster using assassins (who would he want to assassinate?).  So if there's any credence to what Craster's doing, it's probably because he's got the wrong end of the stick and thinks the Others are interested in sacrifices in order to keep them away.  Not sure still if he just uses the story of the Others as a scare tactic to help keep his wives in line.  But on the show, things are way different.
 
 
If I had to guess, I'd say the Common Tongue grew out of the First Men interacting with the Old Races.  Though Bran does seem to have a different take on the Singer's language, and am not sure I hear a lot of unearthly beauty rattling off too many tongues.  Sarcasm, definitely (Jaime, Tyrion, Jon. . .)

Yea it may be possible that Craster believes that he is sacrificing to the cold gods so they leave him be and the cold gods are using his sons. I don't see him using assassins either. I am just speculating :) There isn't canon to support my theory,yet.

[Black Crow]

I guess I look at it from more of a perspective that Native Americans/Mayans/Incas might. Many pacts made with their enemy from several crossings of several different countries and cultures never turning out quite how they liked, or even honored over time. If they had the power that the CotF have to crush land masses and split continents and so on, they would have used it.

 

Though typing that, I wonder. With their greenseers (well with how we think they work) and such, how did the CotF not see the arrivals of the FM and Andals? How did they not see their possible demise?

 

I think that's the point of human greenseers; to be able to see what men are doing.

[Black Crow]

 

Nope, we don't know enough to make the claim with absolute certainty. Quite true. I was expounding on two ideas that had been mentioned earlier in the thread. First, that the obsidian offerings might originate with the Pact. Second, that First Men adopted the Old Gods following the Pact.

 

A point I've made in prior Heresies is that by the time of the Andal Invasion, First Men would have more closely resembled their dappled, three-fingered neighbors in terms of culture, language, and religion than these newcomers speaking the Common Tongue and smiting their foes in the name of the Seven.

 

I don't think we know it at all, far less with any "certainty". The Pact was indeed a territorial one and as was pointed out in 174 the singers may occasionally have "helped" when asked nicely, there was no question whatsoever of an alliance. Both races went their separate ways.

 

While we don't know how the old tongue relates to the common tongue - and given an Essosi origin for both it may not have been very great, but it wasn't the singers' tongue - remember how Bob the Builder learning it was a story in itself. As to culture - what culture? How can you adopt a culture you know nothing of far less understand? The First Men were and still are farmers not woods-runners. That being said I'm happy that some did adopt the woodland culture and may when the time came have become the first walkers per Maester Fomas; but not the population at large. Religion? Yes, that's what Maester Luwin says and why we see Lord Eddard praying before a heart tree, but however honestly held there's a difference between the passive observance we see and full on worship.

 

And when the Andals came, there's the kicker. Yes there are occasional episodes where men stood by the singers, such as the defence of High Heart, but for the most part the ethnic cleansing couldn't have been carried out without the passive and probably all-too often active support of the First Men.

[Eira Seren]

I would imagine that the common tongue is akin to English gradually taking over from Welsh and Gaelic.

 

Yeah.  Though the Andal influence might be more like what happened once West Saxon started creeping in, by then it was combining with Latin.  Or maybe the Andals are the ones bringing things in more like Latin :)

 

 

Yea it may be possible that Craster believes that he is sacrificing to the cold gods so they leave him be and the cold gods are using his sons. I don't see him using assassins either. I am just speculating :) There isn't canon to support my theory,yet.

 

I am sure Craster believes he's "godly," that's one thing I'm quite certain of :)  But still waiting on the rest. . .

[Black Crow]

I am sure Craster believes he's "godly," that's one thing I'm quite certain of :)  But still waiting on the rest. . .

 

I honestly don't see any need beyond contrarianism to deviate from text, including that piece by Maester Fomas, and not accept at least some of the current generation of walkers as Craster's sons.

 

Ultimately whatever the nature of the magic or the transformation involved the all-important point is that the walkers are not a different race, but are human changelings - just as Mel and Moqorro appear to be on the other side. 

[Eira Seren]

 

I honestly don't see any need beyond contrarianism to deviate from text, including that piece by Maester Fomas, and not accept at least some of the current generation of walkers as Craster's sons.

 

Ultimately whatever the nature of the magic or the transformation involved the all-important point is that the walkers are not a different race, but are human changelings - just as Mel and Moqorro appear to be on the other side. 

 

Oh, I know it's your theory that they are indeed, and at the moment it would be nice if TWOW were actually being run to press so we could maybe find out more, something that might actually show some Others stopping by to pick them up would be great, for instance.  (If it's not them I suspect an ice Balrog).  And unless he's a raging jerk who just likes to leave babies out in the cold to torment his wives, Craster really certainly thinks they're the sons (or people at the keep do).  Now, I realize my evidence for Craster not being a jerk is a bit shaky given his track record with the daughters :)  However, it's very convincing to me that the Others have their origin in humans. 

 

Not sure just what I think Mel is, if there's much human left in her at all, or what.