Heresy 175

[TheSmallOther]

It sounds desperate BC. You've been blasting the three-fingered sidhe made of flesh for creating the Others all this time, so I know you're vested. But... all they have done is warn and aid these past 10000 years. Warn and aid, never subvert, and, without protest.

 

Are you saying they didn't resist Andals at all?

[Black Crow]

Citation? LOL

 

Quoted  :commie:

[Black Crow]

" Here an enigmatic band of warriors bear swords of no human metal; a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness; "

 

 

First one's straightforward enough but "a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness"?

[Regular John Umber]

Assuming Lyanna is Jon's mother how do you adjust the Timeline? HR was with Ned during the war and a pregnancy last around 9 months.

 

 

yes it is about the time. Howland Reed arrived at the Tower of Joy at the time Lyanna was delivering. 

 

 Yeah that's what I thought might be the main issue - the timing.

 

 Although it must be said, we don't know exactly when Jon was born, or why Lyanna died. So the theory is open...

 

 

 

 

I believe Howland Reed is one of the essays that will be part of the alternate fathers/parents Heresy project, although it will run under it's own sub-forum. I'm not quite sure when it will run though. Wolfmaid will have to answer that.

 

 I was not aware this was happening, awesome.

 

 

I've suggested Howland many-a-time in past Heresies. He's the only man Lyanna was ever said to have befriended, in canon. Jyana=Lyanna... possible ;)

 

 

 Ah, I must have missed that. Glad to know I'm not alone.

[Black Crow]

The CotF don't seem to be as forgotten or misunderstood as the Others. At the least, some knowledge of their culture, their gods, their tools, etc. remains, while men don't seem to have even the most basic knowledge of what the Others are, or how to combat them (eg, obsidian). In particular, the CotF as "demons of legend" seems ill fitting.

 

 

Rather depends on whether men actually knew that the three-fingered tree-huggers were behind the walkers :devil:

 

As to the dragonglass etc. it's also worth remembering the emphasis given by Mormont to things forgotten which might also tie in with Qhorin's warning about the trees

[Armstark]

 

Correct.  Veteran heretics know JNR has long argued Craster's sons are merely a curveball thrown by Martin to distract the reader.  At this point, though I've argued the other side in the past... I, too, am inclined to think the Craster's Keepers really are red herring.  Still thinking through implications of the Other/Shadow theory - but I very much like the connection you made to the House of the Undying, Armstark.  Undying shadows gathered 'round a cold heart... seems reminiscent, and worth some follow up.  

Haha, thank you. Maybe I get around to write this theory down in all its glory sometime.

 

Crow, Armstark, Voice; 

 

Rather than fumble with the quote feature I'll just address you three. Speaking of "changelings," and comparing the Undying to the red priests to the Others has always struck me as missing something. Whatever the Undying are, they seem to have been human once. Ditto Mel and Moqorro. They all speak the common tongue, and they all have human forms. In the case of the Undying, they're really old, gross, purple human forms. And in the case of the red priests, they're probably crispy human forms. But whatever has happened to their bodies, their essence, their spirit, appears to remain the same. 

 

The Others, on the.. uh, Other hand, while human-shaped, seem distinctly unhuman. ("Think, oh... the Sidhe made of ice.") They don't speak the common tongue. They very probably can turn into mist and condense at will, or at least do some kind of magical hiding tricks. Mel, Moqorro, and the Undying strike me as humans who have done some extreme body modification. The Others are full-on transhuman.

I don't see what makes the Others seem so inhuman to you.  They can do magic, yes, but so can humans. They speak a different tongue, but so do other humans.  But I agree that they are different to the other magically changed people in so far that they are no longer in their original body which makes them seem more inhuman. 

 

I never liked the Others to the red priests, I think there are very different. But I think the Others are like the Undying except that they managed to gain bodies again after withering away as souls in their Heart of Winter. By the way I think what the Undying wanted from Daenerys was exactly that too: 

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them...

 

 

Ah my apologies, thank you for letting me know! :)

You're welcome!

[Melifeather]

I can see how the Others would "eat" the babies left out in the cold (for them) in order to consume their life force much like the Undying wanted Dany. Like a succubus or incubus. Hmm, what Melisandre does is like a succubus....and Beric Dondarrion seemed to be doing the opposite by returning life into the dead...making the dead the succubus or incubus.

[TheMiddleHero]

 

I hear ya. Such a desire to exterminate Europeans now would seem even more barbarous however, from an indigenous perspective, considering we are now mixed and intermarried with Europeans. That would be killing our own family. 

 

If you are interested in the subject, you should begin with the works of Vine Deloria, particularly Red Earth, White Lies. The concept of war, for the sake of war/territory/conquest, also came with Europeans. This should be fairly obvious, as it is not a sustainable way to coexist, and sustainable coexistence is really the name of the game when it comes to native culture.

 

While there had always been conflicts in native North and South America, there were not exterminations. A cursory look at a language map will demonstrate this. The Western Hemisphere was one of the most linguistically diverse areas in all the world. I'm a linguist by trade, and work on many languages. It is a necessity in my area, because it bears more linguistic diversity than all of Western Europe.

 

Native battles were more like football games. They were competitions, and rarely ended in bloodshed. There are exceptions, but even when violence was necessary, it was considered more honorable to subdue your foe than to kill him.

 

Far more common was the act of making relatives. When problems emerged, tribes would often bind their interests through arranged marriages (nodal kinship systems). This kept things relatively peaceful. Hollywood prefers the red savage stereotype, or at least used to, but the truth on the ground was far different. Europeans were welcomed. And still are.

 

It is they who turned to violence. We responded of course, LOL (I have Yellow Boy, a 30-30 lever action that was fired at Armstrong Custer hanging on my wall). But things like genocide and extermination are not reconcilable with native practices.

 

Will have to check some of that out, been looking for good reads.

 

Have read on the battles, though not for a while, between the Sioux and Illini, and also the Iriquois Mouring wars and  Beaver wars. They seemed rather bloody incidents. They were at a time that colonists began to arrive though.  Revenge killings did not seem all that uncommon either.

 

We may not be talking a genocide either, the last Long Night didn't wipe everyone out.  Heck, maybe it's a territorial dispute.

 

Probably just a bad analogy on my part to begin with.

 

Still get a creepy and untruthful vibe from Bran's 3 chapters in ADWD

[Black Crow]

 

Will have to check some of that out, been looking for good reads.

 

Have read on the battles, though not for a while, between the Sioux and Illini, and also the Iriquois Mouring wars and  Beaver wars. They seemed rather bloody incidents. They were at a time that colonists began to arrive though.  Revenge killings did not seem all that uncommon either.

 

We may not be talking a genocide either, the last Long Night didn't wipe everyone out.  Heck, maybe it's a territorial dispute.

 

Probably just a bad analogy on my part to begin with.

 

Still get a creepy and untruthful vibe from Bran's 3 chapters in ADWD

 

Quite. If you're loking for a good read you might want to try Brian DeLay's War of a Thousand Deserts about how the Comanche depopulated Northern Mexico and doomed themselves in the process. Certainly not innocent victims. There may not have been deliberate genocide involved but very much what we used to call in the army Mind over Matter: We don't mind and you don't matter.

[Maester Feelgood]

I'm curious if something has been discussed, I lurk about but miss the details often. Craster has exactly 19 wives which seems like it could mirror the 19 castles on the Wall. Craster having Stark or other Kingly blood has also been discussed but with a little tinfoil perhaps his sons are being made to be able to pass the Wall or something. If you assume the 19 wives/castles is not a coincidence perhaps that's the framework of his ritual. Sorry if this is common knowledge.

[Sly Wren]

I don't see what makes the Others seem so inhuman to you.  They can do magic, yes, but so can humans. They speak a different tongue, but so do other humans.  But I agree that they are different to the other magically changed people in so far that they are no longer in their original body which makes them seem more inhuman. 

 

I never liked the Others to the red priests, I think there are very different. But I think the Others are like the Undying except that they managed to gain bodies again after withering away as souls in their Heart of Winter. By the way I think what the Undying wanted from Daenerys was exactly that too: 

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them...

 

Yes--I agree. We even have "undying" Singers in the roots in the cave who act a lot like the Undying of Qarth. Does that mean they are controlling/projecting into the Others? Can't prove that. But seems at least like a viable option. And they need life to do it--maybe Craster's sons. . . 

 

I can see how the Others would "eat" the babies left out in the cold (for them) in order to consume their life force much like the Undying wanted Dany. Like a succubus or incubus. Hmm, what Melisandre does is like a succubus....and Beric Dondarrion seemed to be doing the opposite by returning life into the dead...making the dead the succubus or incubus.

And not just consuming. Also transforming. Not sure exactly what's reanimating Beric, other than "magic," but it has transformed him. And Mel. The idea that the babies are being consumed/transformed into another form of life--works.

 

And Mel definitely works as a kind of succubus.

[Sly Wren]

I'm curious if something has been discussed, I lurk about but miss the details often. Craster has exactly 19 wives which seems like it could mirror the 19 castles on the Wall. Craster having Stark or other Kingly blood has also been discussed but with a little tinfoil perhaps his sons are being made to be able to pass the Wall or something. If you assume the 19 wives/castles is not a coincidence perhaps that's the framework of his ritual. Sorry if this is common knowledge.

Not sure about the 19's. Hadn't noticed that myself. But the idea that what Craster is doing may go back to older rituals connected to the Wall--that works. Hadn't heard the one about Craster's sons possibly being able to pass through the Wall. That would be interesting. But if these sacrifices have been down before, if the Nights King was sacrificing seed/children and he was a Stark--not sure if we have any pervious hints that Starked-up Others could pass through the Wall. But I'm happy to be corrected.

[Melifeather]

I'm curious if something has been discussed, I lurk about but miss the details often. Craster has exactly 19 wives which seems like it could mirror the 19 castles on the Wall. Craster having Stark or other Kingly blood has also been discussed but with a little tinfoil perhaps his sons are being made to be able to pass the Wall or something. If you assume the 19 wives/castles is not a coincidence perhaps that's the framework of his ritual. Sorry if this is common knowledge.

 

I think this is an interesting idea, but not sure if GRRM just wanted to give a number to the wives instead of just leaving it as "many" or if it is indeed significant. The same is true of the castles along the Wall. Is the number significant? There are 31 weirwood stumps on High Heart. Is this number significant? I think we have discussed the symbolism of numbers before on Heresy, but it's been awhile back. As for the Bible, numbers definitely have symbolic meaning. I think most people are familiar with the number 3 being the Christian godhead, and the number 6 or 666 representing the devil.

[Maester Feelgood]

Could be something could be nothing, it could also just as easily be a psychological f-you to the watch. With Craster's epic Daddy issues and a crow for a father he could have taken 19 wives in the spirit of "anything you can do I can do better." They have their ice magic wall with 19 castles so he gathers ice magic friends and 19 wives. You get the point. Thanks for taking the time to consider it.

[Armstark]

Yes--I agree. We even have "undying" Singers in the roots in the cave who act a lot like the Undying of Qarth.

Can you elaborate on that? What are the similarities?

[Sly Wren]

Can you elaborate on that? What are the similarities?

The scene I mostly think of is when Bran sees all of the Singers in the roots. They all look dead, but their eyes follow him. And one moves his/her (can't remember which) mouth as if trying to talk to Bran.

 

Reminds me of the description of the Undying when Dany finds them despite the illusions. They follow her with their eyes, seem like they can't move, but keep whispering. The scenes seem similar.

 

Throw in the unique trees (black bark/blue leaves in Qarth and wierwoods in North), the partaking of substances, the visions, the drawing in of both Dany and Bran (different methods, but still, both drawn in)--not saying this is definitive. But I think there's at least a chance that there's a parallel here. 

[Black Crow]

Could be. Obviously there are differences but I suppose the big parallel is their both being stuck there in the dark projecting dreams.

[Melifeather]

The scene I mostly think of is when Bran sees all of the Singers in the roots. They all look dead, but their eyes follow him. And one moves his/her (can't remember which) mouth as if trying to talk to Bran.

 

Reminds me of the description of the Undying when Dany finds them despite the illusions. They follow her with their eyes, seem like they can't move, but keep whispering. The scenes seem similar.

 

Throw in the unique trees (black bark/blue leaves in Qarth and wierwoods in North), the partaking of substances, the visions, the drawing in of both Dany and Bran (different methods, but still, both drawn in)--not saying this is definitive. But I think there's at least a chance that there's a parallel here. 

 

The Undying tried to get their tendrils on Dany to draw on her life force, I suppose you could draw a parallel with the singers? Maybe they're drawing off Bloodraven's lifeforce and soon it will be Bran. Would Dany have stayed on like Bloodraven had there been similar envoys? Bran had Jojen and Meera, then Leaf convince him to come and stay.

[Sly Wren]

 

The Undying tried to get their tendrils on Dany to draw on her life force, I suppose you could draw a parallel with the singers? Maybe they're drawing off Bloodraven's lifeforce and soon it will be Bran. Would Dany have stayed on like Bloodraven had there been similar envoys? Bran had Jojen and Meera, then Leaf convince him to come and stay.

This could work, yes. All the Singers in the trees with BR as "the" Greenseer--maybe it's all a group effort with a key human greenseer as the power base. Not exactly sure what the Undying want with Dany other than her life force--but seems like she might have been in a bad way if she'd stayed. And seems like the Undying are all working together to project visions and illusions.

 

Does that mean the house of the Undying is exactly like the cave of skulls? Don't think so. But that image of the silent, still, whispering, almost dead creatures following Dany and then Bran with their eyes--that image is sticking in my head for some reason. For now, Im not sure what to do with it. But it's interesting--at least to me.

[TheMiddleHero]

The scene I mostly think of is when Bran sees all of the Singers in the roots. They all look dead, but their eyes follow him. And one moves his/her (can't remember which) mouth as if trying to talk to Bran.

 

Reminds me of the description of the Undying when Dany finds them despite the illusions. They follow her with their eyes, seem like they can't move, but keep whispering. The scenes seem similar.

 

Throw in the unique trees (black bark/blue leaves in Qarth and wierwoods in North), the partaking of substances, the visions, the drawing in of both Dany and Bran (different methods, but still, both drawn in)--not saying this is definitive. But I think there's at least a chance that there's a parallel here. 

 

:agree:

Throw in some vague visions/prophesies for Bran and Dany as well.