Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 So I brought up this question in another one of my posts http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133624-spoilers-all-the-mad-king-aerys-azor-ahai/ but there's a lot in there and most of it is super tinfoil so this question didn't get any attention. But I don't think most people ever really question why Aerys would place his 3 most powerful/badass knights hundreds of miles away from the nearest battlefield to stand guard over a dying woman during a war they were losing? And yes I said Aerys because that's who the Kingsguard takes orders from. When Aerys is raping Rhaella, Jamie asks why they aren't stopping him and he's told that their duty is to the king not the queen. I think we don't question this is because the flashback between and Ned is so awesome that this seems reason enough to have them there. But GRRM doesn't really work like this, he's not going to set up a situation that doesn't make any sense just because it makes for a bad ass show down. So why were they there? Even Ned seems shocked/surprised to see them there and is wondering why they weren't at the trident or kingslanding or Dragonstone. If Ned is wondering this then I think it's time we do to. If Rhaegar Had Hightower or Dayne beside him at the trident things would have gone differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Aerys didnt post them there, I believe two of them were with Rhaegar when he fled with Lyanna and the last one was sent to bring Rhaegar back and stayed at the Tower instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Aerys didnt post them there, I believe two of them were with Rhaegar when he fled with Lyanna and the last one was sent to bring Rhaegar back and stayed at the Tower instead. Correct. Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he ran off with Lyanna, and stayed with them throughout the Rebellion. Hightower was sent to collect the Prince and stayed down there afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Aerys probably thought that the fires told him to do so. Aerys was 11 eggs short of a dozen, how the heck is anyone sane supposed to figure out what he was thinking? Some guesses: 1. Aerys MUST have believed that they were not crucial to winning the war or 2. They were not under Aery's orders. or 3. Aerys did not trust them, possibly fearing they were part of a conspiracy to usurp his throne by Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 There was pretty deep division late because everyone knew Aerys had lost it. The KG at ToJ were with Rhaegar, had bought into whatever he was selling, and had basically given up on Aerys in favor of Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Priest of R'hllor Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Dayne was one of the closest people to Rhaegar so it's highly likey the three were three under Rhaegar's command rather than ordered by Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok you're right two of them were last seen with Rhaegar when he disappeared and Hightower never returned after he was sent to find Rhaegar. So I guess that answers part of the question as to why they were there. But during the burning of the Starks, Hightower tells Jamie "You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him." He takes his duty to serving the king very seriously and he was the commander of the Kingsguard. Why wouldn't he order the other 2 men to return with him to Kingslanding? Why forsake his duty to Aerys in the middle of a war that they were losing in order to keep guard over a woman he had no oath to protect? Because Rhaegar loved her and she possibly was pregnant with his child? Seeing how things went down, it seems like having a Maester stand guard over her instead of the 3 greatest warriors of the realm would have done her more good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok you're right two of them were last seen with Rhaegar when he disappeared and Hightower never returned after he was sent to find Rhaegar. So I guess that answers part of the question as to why they were there. But during the burning of the Starks, Hightower tells Jamie "You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him." He takes his duty to serving the king very seriously and he was the commander of the Kingsguard. Why wouldn't he order the other 2 men to return with him to Kingslanding? Why forsake his duty to Aerys in the middle of a war that they were losing in order to keep guard over a woman he had no oath to protect? Because Rhaegar loved her and she possibly was pregnant with his child? Seeing how things went down, it seems like having a Maester stand guard over her instead of the 3 greatest warriors of the realm would have done her more good. Must have been something pretty important at the Tower huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Fair enough, I suppose a woman pregnant with a targ could be all the reason needed. Though history is filled with both high and low born women who've given birth to Targ Bastards and yet I've never heard of another situation in which a targ bastard was valued so highly that The commander of the Kingsguard and 2 other Kingsguard members decided to personally protect her while the rest of the realm was burning. Rhaegar's own pregnant mother and brother didn't get a single Kingsguard to protect them in Dragonstone, but Lyanna and her bastard son gets the 3 best? I guess there's no reason to ask anymore questions about this. Sure we can all just write off everything Aerys ever did because he was crazy right? What's the point of trying make any sense of the actions of a crazy dude. Question: Why'd Aery's do such and such? Answer: He was insane. But Maybe we should stop for a second and think to ourselves that perhaps GRRM decision to have all the other characters paint King Aerys as being bat shit insane, is so that he could conceal important facts in plain sight with out the reader realizing it because he knew that they'd just dismiss it as the actions of a crazy man. Kind of like what he uses Patchfaces own madness in order to disguise prophetic messages about the future as crazy ramblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Fair enough, I suppose a woman pregnant with a targ could be all the reason needed. Though history is filled with both high and low born women who've given birth to Targ Bastards and yet I've never heard of another situation in which a targ bastard was valued so highly that The commander of the Kingsguard and 2 other Kingsguard members decided to personally protect her while the rest of the realm was burning. Rhaegar's own pregnant mother and brother didn't get a single Kingsguard to protect them in Dragonstone, but Lyanna and her bastard son gets the 3 best? I guess there's no reason to ask anymore questions about this. Sure we can all just write off everything Aerys ever did because he was crazy right? What's the point of trying make any sense of the actions of a crazy dude. Question: Why'd Aery's do such and such? Answer: He was insane. But Maybe we should stop for a second and think to ourselves that perhaps GRRM decision to have all the other characters paint King Aerys as being bat shit insane, is so that he could conceal important facts in plain sight with out the reader realizing it because he knew that they'd just dismiss it as the actions of a crazy man. Kind of like what he uses Patchfaces own madness in order to disguise prophetic messages about the future as crazy ramblings. Most proponents of R+L=J explain this with the belief that Jon is legitimate (Rhaegar married Lyanna/Targs practiced polygamy in the past/etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't know from where you get that Aerys sent them there. All we know so far is that they disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Hightower tells Jamie "You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him." I think it's interesting that that line is put into Hightower's mouth. While it's plausible that Dayne and Whent may have moved past Aerys to recognize Rhaegar as the "true" king, Hightower, here and in Ned's memory/dream is quite adamant about honoring the vow. The thing that still gets me though is that even if Jon's legitimate (I honestly don't care either way) Aegon was still the heir. Even if you assume that the gold cloaks and whoever else was left can keep the city safe, it's hard to justify 3 of 7 king's guard protecting the 3rd in line for the throne. And sure, they were only 3 men, but, if what's in the tower is so important, why couldn't other men be spared? Keep it safe. Keep it secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree that Aegon the conquerer practiced polygamy and so did Valaryian Dragon lords but those guys weren't following the Faith of the Seven. I'll also agree that many of the targ kings who did follow the faith of the seven would still keep a fair share of mistresses around them some of which they preferred more than their wives, but I wouldn't call this polygamy and lets be honest Robert was not Targ and he did more or less the same. But since converting to the faith of the 7 no Targ has ever taken more then one wife because the faith of the seven doesn't allow it and all the kids they had with their were mistresses were considered Bastards. Even in the case of Damien Waters (later Blackfyre) who's father was a Targ king and his mother was his fathers sister and thus also of royal blood. He still bore the name Waters until the king legitimized him on his death bed. Either way Aegon was still Rhaegar's first born son and had the right to the thrown before jon did and I'm guessing that Rhaegar's actual wife and his two kids wish they had Dayne and Hightower(or any member of the kingsguard) standing in front of their door when the mountain came a knocking. It's likely that I'm overthinking all of this and it simply is what it is. But It doesn't change that it doesn't make total sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 But It doesn't change that it doesn't make total sense. It doesn't. But I guess that's kind of the point. Something special was going on at the Tower of Joy. Readers are supposed to notice that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok CJ McLannister That's probably the best answer that I've heard and perhaps the best one I'll get. GRRM intentionally had it so it didn't make sense in order to draw the readers attention to the fact that it didn't make sense. With out them there the reader might have no reason to ponder any deeper about what went down at TOJ and consider that L+R=J. It still puts plot device before logic, which I don't like, but I guess no writer is with out that and they can always fall back on how IRL peoples actions don't always make perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree that Aegon the conquerer practiced polygamy and so did Valaryian Dragon lords but those guys weren't following the Faith of the Seven. I'll also agree that many of the targ kings who did follow the faith of the seven would still keep a fair share of mistresses around them some of which they preferred more than their wives, but I wouldn't call this polygamy and lets be honest Robert was not Targ and he did more or less the same. But since converting to the faith of the 7 no Targ has ever taken more then one wife because the faith of the seven doesn't allow it and all the kids they had with their were mistresses were considered Bastards. Even in the case of Damien Waters (later Blackfyre) who's father was a Targ king and his mother was his fathers sister and thus also of royal blood. He still bore the name Waters until the king legitimized him on his death bed. Either way Aegon was still Rhaegar's first born son and had the right to the thrown before jon did and I'm guessing that Rhaegar's actual wife and his two kids wish they had Dayne and Hightower(or any member of the kingsguard) standing in front of their door when the mountain came a knocking. It's likely that I'm overthinking all of this and it simply is what it is. But It doesn't change that it doesn't make total sense. Aegon the Conquerer practiced the Faith of the Seven. He's the one who built the idols of the Seven on Dragonstone that Mel burns at the beginning of ACoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmnomnomPomelo Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 My opinion: the Kingsguard during Aerys were honorable knights (save for Jaime) who took their vows seriously. We can say that Rhaegar sooner or later wanted to overthrow Aerys. The 6: Arthur Dayne: good (maybe best?) friend of Rhaegar Gerold Hightower: the honorable Lord Commander from a really powerfull House Oswell Whent: House Whent held Harrenhal and Oswell's brother, the Lord Whent made the great tourney we can say for Rhaegar personally Lewyn Martell: was the uncle of the future queen Elia Martell Jonothor Darry: House Darry proved to be very loyal for the ruling House Barristan Selmy: wouldn't let Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys (+1 Jaime the prick: Aerys made him to stay close) So the Kingsguard knew that Aerys can't be saved and they wanted to see Rhaegar sit the throne instead of Aerys, and they would even help him to overthrow Aerys, well save for Barristan coz he wouldn't do something like this. And the others wouldn't harm Aerys, some of them had to go to fight Robert, the others were picked by Rhaegar to help his case, which in my opinion was some kind of excuse. So Lewyn had to lead the Dornish army against Robert, so he couldn't be at the Tower of Joy. Barristan Selmy: as said above, so he couldn't be at the ToJ. Arthur was the deadliest of the Kingsguard and Rhaegar's friend, so he had to with Rhaegar. Oswell was behind Harrenhall too, so an ally of Rhaegar, thus he had to go too with him. Gerold Hightower was the Lord Commander, if he swears fealty to Rhaegar as the first one, then it would be "Ookaay". And Jonothor Darry maybe wasn't a big warrior, and also the 3-3-1 line up looks better. So maybe Rhaegar wanted to defeat Robert, meanwhile Lyanna gives birth to Jon, and then Rhaegar overthrows Aerys and crowns himself, giving pardon to every rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rioghbhardan Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Thanks Omnmon That was a great summerization of the Kingsguard members and it actually got me thinking of another reason why Hightower stayed at the tower. You make a very good argument as to why Whent and Dayne would back Rhaegar over Aerys but I disagree with you that Hightower is any different than Barristan when it comes to taking his vows seriously. I think these two were of the same mind when it came to their duty and if Rhaegar did decide to kill his father and take the throne neither Barristan nor Hightower would have been willing to aide Rhaegar and raise their swords against the king. In fact these two men take their vows so seriously that I suspect that if Rhaegar raised his sword against the king they would feel compelled to defend the king even if in their hearts they knew Rhaegar would make a better king. I think both Rhaegar and Hightower knew this and that's why Hightower agreed to stay behind at the TOJ because he knew if he went back with Rhaegar and Rhaegar tried to overthrow his father that he would be forced to cut down Rhaegar which he didn't want to do. Staying at the TOJ allowed him to maintain his vows while avoiding direct involvement in this difficult situation. Still kind of strange that he chose to lay down his life for Lyanna and her bastard child when the king and rhaegar were both dead and thus his priority should be to getting to Viserys or Rhaella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 But since converting to the faith of the 7 no Targ has ever taken more then one wife because the faith of the seven doesn't allow it and all the kids they had with their were mistresses were considered Bastards. No one had conquered Westeros before Aegon did it. Just because no one had done it before does not mean it could not have happened. Just because the Faith says you cant do it does not mean it did not happen The law says you cant rob a bank, but banks get robbed every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The law says you cant rob a bank, but banks get robbed every day. But if you publicly declare that money to be legally yours, you will be arrested. Marriage and interference laws, particularly of royals, are societal constructs, not individual whims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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