A Faceless Poster Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 So keeping with the idea of balance in the song of ice and fire, I believe the shadowbinders from Asshai are the fire equivalent of others. First of all their home Asshai, is made up of a strange black material that is almost indestructible and apparently absorbs light. Sounds almost opposite to the clear reflective material that the Others carry. Secondly, there is no locally grown food in Asshai. All animals die in its borders and the water is contaminated, mutant blind fish are the only things that swim in Asshai's river. We are given the reasoning that Asshai merely imports food and water, but pretty basic logic makes this absurd. Any fully human society could not sustain itself with 100% imported water, the logic of trade, human dependence on water, and the possibility of a delayed shipment make a society surviving off of imported water near impossible. What seems much more likely is that the shadowbinders import these things to make the appearance of eating and drinking, just like Melisandre does, to keep up the illusion of humanity. While talking about trade, it is certainly not a coincidence that one of Asshai's biggest exports is dragon glass. So the people of Asshai, like the others, are able to survive in environments where humans should not be able to. We also get suggestions of a much longer life span for shadowbinders from Melisandre, who has practiced magic years beyond count. The people in Asshai constantly wear mask and Melisandre wears a ruby neck less in a story that mentions rubies being used as glamours. This suggest a secret appearance for the Asshai people, that might be as terrifying and wondrous as the Others are to humans. There is also this very strange fact, there are no children in Asshai. This almost certainly means the population is not local, but instead imported for unknown reasons. We all know very well that in story shadowbinders and birth do not result in human or alive offspring. This of course is similar to the Others, who seem to need or at least want Craster's babies and reward Craster by sparing him from death. The Red Priest often recruit from slaves and use them for whatever purpose they need; the red priest seem to have found a more organized and less "sacrificial" way of increasing their ranks. Red Priest are also frequently shown to be able to revive the dead. Thoros, despite not believing his religion, gave the last kiss to Beric bringing him back to life. This revival was later used to bring back Lady Stoneheart, what is basically a zombie with one goal on its mind. Red priest are able to heal, but when they do you come back less alive. Victarion is an especially interesting example. His arm is healed in such a way that it is left permanently burned and dead like, but stronger in every way. All people brought back by Rhllor are not brought back whole or alive, but are instead brought back missing something a fueled by a new power. Rhllor is giving something back much different than life that animates. Finally Mel's interactions with Stannis are incredibly similar to the night's queen. A mysterious figure with a beauty that does not seem to be human seduces you and produces horrifying offspring while binding men to your cause. Stannis loses a bit of his soul every time he beds Mel, so much so that she fears killing him. Human offspring are not born from Stannis and Mel, but instead elemental demon like figure that serve a purpose while killing the one who provided seed. Basically it seems like the servants of fire are not just morally ambiguous, but potentially just as dangerous to humanity as the Others. We only hear about the evil Great Other from magically pyromaniacs, and say what you will about Bloodraven at least his first solution to every problem is not burning king's blood. It seems likely that whoever Azor Ahai is, he or she probably is not good news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm kind of with you in that the Shadowbinders are a "type" of Other (or produce shadow "Others," like Mel's shadow-assassin). And I'm definitely with you about fire being just as inimical to human life as the ice Others. But we don't actually know that the Shadowbinders are related to the Red Priests. Mel is both Red Priest and Shadowbinder, and she learned the Shadowbinding portion in Asshai. It seems like it might be supplementing, rather than being a part of, her fire magic training. I think it's likely that all these forms of "others" have some essentially similar currents, but I'm not really so sure that Shadowbinding is a necessary part of fire magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faceless Poster Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm kind of with you in that the Shadowbinders are a "type" of Other (or produce shadow "Others," like Mel's shadow-assassin). But we don't actually know that the Shadowbinders are related to the Red Priests. Mel is both Red Priest and Shadowbinder, and she learned the Shadowbinding portion in Asshai. It seems like it might be supplementing, rather than being a part of, her fire magic training. I think it's likely that all these forms of "others" have some essentially similar currents, but I'm not really so sure that Shadowbinding is a necessary part of fire magic. That is a good point. Their prophetic books seem to indicate the Rhollor faith comes from Asshai, but that does not mean they are the same as shadowbinders. In my opinion red priest are somewhat similar to wights for the people from Asshai, servants of their interest but not the same. My best guess is each groups is more complex than we imagined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 yea, but I think your overall thesis still stands-- that there's different elemental "Others" with some essentially similar traits, and that "Others" have a more complex and intertwined relationship with humans than one might initially suspect (and that no element is necessarily "good" in some objective sense). I'm curious to see these comparatively side by side, like you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truly Just Man Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Secondly, there is no locally grown food in Asshai. All animals die in its borders and the water is contaminated, mutant blind fish are the only things that swim in Asshai's river. We are given the reasoning that Asshai merely imports food and water, but pretty basic logic makes this absurd. Any fully human society could not sustain itself with 100% imported water, the logic of trade, human dependence on water, and the possibility of a delayed shipment make a society surviving off of imported water near impossible. What seems much more likely is that the shadowbinders import these things to make the appearance of eating and drinking, just like Melisandre does, to keep up the illusion of humanity. While talking about trade, it is certainly not a coincidence that one of Asshai's biggest exports is dragon glass. Wasn't it mentioned that Asshai is kinda huge? Like it contain Volantis and King's Landing combined within it's walls, but it's very sparsely populated. And I think there is a town further in the shadow where even the shadowbinders are affraid to go. It's more likely that the other Others are actually living in this town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faceless Poster Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Wasn't it mentioned that Asshai is kinda huge? Like it contain Volantis and King's Landing combined within it's walls, but it's very sparsely populated. And I think there is a town further in the shadow where even the shadowbinders are affraid to go. It's more likely that the other Others are actually living in this town. Yes Asshai is huge and can contain what I remember to be Volantis, King's Landing, and Old Town combined. Despite this Asshai has the population of a village. Stygai is the city you were mentioning, according to legend even the shadowbinders are afraid of it. But what we know of the others and Asshai are so shrouded in mystery that I think comparisons between legends we know well and events we have read are best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Could the Undying have been some kind of version of Others too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Y. Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 OP: I absolutely agree with everything you said It agrees with/complements very, very well my theory on Jon's role in the war to come between the Others and the Red Priests: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133518-about-jon-snow-not-being-azor-ahai-and-where-i-think-it-leads-him/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Would make a bittersweet ending with everything coming full circle. It's essentially going to be the Ice led by Bran, the Fire led by Dany, and Jon Snow will be stuck in the middle of the war....being technically both Stark AND Targaryen. It's the ultimate grey character character ending. Neither side is being painted as an antagonist in the series, and both sides are legitimately fighting for something fans can root for. On top of that, you'll have a few characters in the middle that people love (Jon, Tyrion). The entire ending is going to be one giant, massive melee of fighting between characters that everyone loves. Nobody will know who to root for, everyone will be a grey character, and it's going to create one hell of a bittersweet ending, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon89 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Could the Undying have been some kind of version of Others too? I think the Undying and the Warlocks are flip versions of the Greenseers and CotF. They both use imbibed/consumed products from trees (shade of the evening and weirwood sap mixed into food). The products have a similar effect and similar taste when described (nasty at first then tasting very pleasant). The trees those products come from are mirrors (blue leaves and black trunk vs. red leaves and white trunk). We know weirwood sap is red, we don't know if other tree's sap is blue but I suspect it is. The Undying seem to have prophetic visions and are long lived (if not undead or on magical life support), the one greenseer we have met seems to have prophetic visions and is long lived (he may technically be dead and on tree life support). If flip side Others are out there, Asshai may be a where they are but I'm doubtful. I think that the destruction of Hardhome (300BC) and the Doom of Valyria (102BC) may be examples of fire Others attacks (a War between the two elements and men caught in the middle). Control the fourteen flames may have been the Valyrian equivalent of the Wall, it failed and then the Doom occurred. The other possibility is that Valyrians are actually the flip side others. Valyrian steel damages Others (dragon glass could be indecently damaging) and dragons could be bio-weapons designed to fight Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 OP: I agree , i think there is some fire Others out their. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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