sologdin Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 ASOIAF most certainly is goodies and baddies. Unless you think murderous necromantic ice demons with a zombie army trying to freeze the world is somehow morally ambiguous? well, yaknow, actually, a 'hershel' on the zombie question might reasonably contend these are simply extremely sick persons in need of medical attention. the fascist answer to illness is of course to execute the sick person for their manifest unfitness, which is dangerous to fit citizens (paradoxically), whereas the liberal answer is to allow those who can afford treatment to obtain it; the socialist answer is to provide the treatment irrespective of ability to pay and irrespective of the purported danger of the afflicted. am thinking therefore that zombies are at worst morally ambiguous or amoral, but probably the underlying virtue (to the extent that 'morality' in the sense intended by the rightwing is relevant to anything) of the afflicted should be preserved because the vast majority of zombies will have been infected in most settings through no defect of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 well, yaknow, actually, a 'hershel' on the zombie question might reasonably contend these are simply extremely sick persons in need of medical attention. the fascist answer to illness is of course to execute the sick person for their manifest unfitness, which is dangerous to fit citizens (paradoxically), whereas the liberal answer is to allow those who can afford treatment to obtain it; the socialist answer is to provide the treatment irrespective of ability to pay and irrespective of the purported danger of the afflicted. am thinking therefore that zombies are at worst morally ambiguous or amoral, but probably the underlying virtue (to the extent that 'morality' in the sense intended by the rightwing is relevant to anything) of the afflicted should be preserved because the vast majority of zombies will have been infected in most settings through no defect of their own. Ah, but (setting aside the question of summary execution for the moment), we then come to the old question: are sickness and evil mutually exclusive? Does the affliction making them do it make doing it not an evil act? And if it does, do we ascribe the evil to the disease or the diseased? Added to this, there is at least one example of a patient choosing not to invade the world of men and instead seeking help. So there is at least an element of choice involved. Of course that last does raise some serious questions about the current regime's policies of segregation - perhaps building a giant wall along the border is not the right course if we want to avoid breeding resentment and anger towards the Seven Kingdoms, and all it did really was ensure that everyone crossing the border is an illegal immigrant. The options of negotiation and a peaceful solution should be explored in a serious way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Kafka Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 True. But the Pet Leech is still right to object to what was said before. To cry "pedantic" is only to acknowledge this ... except with poor grace. He/she can object as much as he/she wants, about anything he/she wants. He/she's still wrong here though. Telling someone to stop being pedantic is to act in poor grace? God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Don't be pedantic. ASOIAF is not so goody/baddy as LOTR for example. Not what you said. You've mentioned one storyline, whereas the entire series is far from clearcut. This is what makes it all so engrossing. For me at least. ASOIAF (thus far) is the story of humans squabbling and being stupid while a great supernatural threat is descending on them. The storyline I cited isn't "one of many" - it's the one that has been set up to be the defining one. Winter Is Coming and all. Even ignoring the Others, Martin most certainly deals in goodies and baddies (Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsay vs. Ned, Davos, Bran). The notion that Martin "really makes good and evil totally subjective, man" is a fandom invention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 All of the robot stories by Asimov Gibson: Neuromancer (I have not read the others in Gibson's series/universe, but they'd probably fit as well) Daniel Suarez: "Daemon" and "Freedom" (not close in iconic quality to the others but rather interesting and quick reads) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plessiez Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 There is a short story about Alan Turing being rescued by time traveling robots in some anthology. Does anybody know of which I speak? Oracle by Greg Egan? (The character in question isn't named Alan Turing, but is obviously intended to be him.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Accelerando by Charles Stross. (also Saturn's Children) a short story, but Exhalation by Ted Chiang Diaspora by Greg Egan Zendegi by Greg Egan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Kafka Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 Regarding Asimov's Robot series: is it worth reading them by publication date, or chronologically with regards to the storyline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I just bought Speak, by Louisa Hall. Sounds interesting. Gets a lot of praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Regarding Asimov's Robot series: is it worth reading them by publication date, or chronologically with regards to the storyline? the four proper robot novels should be identical as to internal & external chronology. no idea where all of the short fictions fit in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koudoulis Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The moon is a harsh mistress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Nah, she's a big softie really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 That's no moon...that's a space station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Nah, she's a big softie really. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I think with the short stories it does not matter much. Of the novels I only read the first two and they are definitely read better in order of publication ( = chronological order). FWIW I think the short stories are far more relevant wrt to questions of AI limitations, ethics etc. than Caves of Steel and Naked Sun. Although the latter are pretty good mysteries with interesting twists. In my recollection they are better than all or most of the "Foundation" series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Yes to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. First novel that came to mind. Even if you find RAH not SJW approved, it's still a pretty foundational book in the canon and features AI heavily. Would also suggest Steel Beach by Varley which also has a fair amount of AI. One of the classic opening lines in SF, IMO, (might rank Seveneves second on that btw, loved that open.) After Moon is a Harsh Mistress though, as there are certain homages in Steel Beach to the former. the four proper robot novels should be identical as to internal & external chronology. no idea where all of the short fictions fit in. [spoiler]Problem being that the robot novels ended up in some ways linking to the Foundation novels. I'd say read the short fiction first, then the Bailey/R. Daneel robot novels and the first three Foundations, before then going to Foundation's Edge and on. There were a couple of other novels that also got linked to that, plus the Bear/Brin/Bedford trilogy, but those could be saved for dessert.[/spoiler] Asimov linked the Robot novels to his other main series eventually, so maybe just read things chronologically as published. As for books about Al, did they ever do novelizations of Quantum Leap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Others I remember are Flowers for Algernon, the Lifecycle of Software Objects by Ted Chiang, and Genesis, by Bernard Beckett. Next year there is a book titled Sea of Rust by Robert Cargill, also on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Kafka Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Thanks for the suggestions. Lots to get going with it seems! I think I'll start with Asimov's stuff first. Always good to begin with the classics, then see how they've influenced other authors. Please do continue with the suggestions, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 There is a short story about Alan Turing being rescued by time traveling robots in some anthology. Does anybody know of which I speak? Found it: [i]Oracle[/i] by Greg Egan. First published in [i]Asimov[/i], 2000. I saw it in [i]Galileo’s Children[/i], an anthology edited by Garnder Dozois. Online on the author’s site: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/MISC/ORACLE/Oracle.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarysTheSpider Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Others I remember are Flowers for Algernon Was about to say that doesn't feature AI, but I guess maybe it does in an unconventional sense. Great book too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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