Jump to content

Those Who Sing The Song Of Earth


Recommended Posts

What we are expecting is a showdown between forces of Ice and Fire. Melisandre and the dragons both have connection to Asshai by the Shadow. They are evidently related to Fire. But it is often observed that the Children of Forest, Bloodraven, Greenseers and by extension the Starks are connected to the forces of Ice. We don't know much about Others, except that they are very vulnerable to anything dragon'/fire-related. And the Others and wights are undeniably connected to the forces of Ice. If the Starks and/or the Boltons have Other blood, then they could also be related to the forces of Ice. But team Bloodraven clearly belong to the forces of Earth, and not Ice or Fire. Yes, he has dragon blood. Yes, he could also have Stark blood. But most importantly he is the last greenseer. The greenseers are related to the Old Gods and Children of the Forest. At the beginning of the story, only the North follows the Old Gods. So we (at least I did) associate Old Gods with the cold and ice of the North. But actually it is a very nature-based, 'green' religion. Earth is the major force here. Not Ice nor Fire. CoTF sing the song of Earth. Trees and plants need soil to grow. Both the extreme cold of Lands of Always Winter, and the all-day sunlight promised by Azor Ahai is bad for the trees, and bad for the men of Westeros. So if the 'Song of Ice and Fire' belongs to the Prince that was promised, this Prince will need to fight both.

It is not Ice vs Fire, but Earth vs Ice & FIre.

But there are many problems with this theory:

1. The children helped the building of the Wall and probably Storm's End, too. Both places are protected by magic. While Storm's End keeps shadows away, Melisandre's magic grows stronger at the Wall.

(Weak explanation: SE magic could be a protection from Fire attack, but Wall magic is made to defend the Ice attack. Enemy of the enemy is friend, so Wall is friendly towards Melisandre while Storm's End is not)

2. The children used to give dragonglass to the NW. Obsidian is a fire-related weapon (but basically it comes from earth). The only way the anyone can defeat the Others is by fire-magic. Dragonfire, dragonsteel, dragonglass. At least in the war against Others, forces of Fire will be a help. There is no reason to believe that Ice and Fire will act together to harm Westeros.

Weak explanation: Remember Hardhome:

 

One night, 600 years ago, Hardhome was destroyed.Something terrible happened that night; the details are uncertain.

The homes of the inhabitants of Hardhome were said to have burned with flames so high and hot that the watchers on the Wall far to the south thought that the sun was rising in from the north. Afterwards, ashes rained down on the haunted forest and the Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year.

Traders and a ship sent by the Night's Watch to investigate reported only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses and blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pock the great cliff that looms above the settlement, a cliff where no living man or woman could be found.

After that Hardhome was shunned. The wildlings never settled the site again, and rangers roaming north of the Wall told tales of the overgrown ruins of Hardhome being haunted by ghouls, demons, and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood.

It is interesting that the place was not attacked by Others, nor Snowstorms, but burned down?

Most likely it was some natural disaster, like a volcano eruption. But this is ASOIAF, Nothing happens without a reason. Especially nothing so terribly vivid as the tragedy at Hardhome.

...

I know its tinfoil, but what do you think? Especially those are in Team Bran Stark?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's Ice vs Fire. The Earth Singers' objective is to maintain a balance between the two, so in Westeros they end up fighting against Ice.

 


But it is often observed that the Children of Forest, Bloodraven, Greenseers and by extension the Starks are connected to the forces of Ice.

 

The Starks are linked to Ice - they were the Kings of Winter after the Long Night ended. (That gives us a major hint about a possible link between the Starks and the Others.) But the CotF aren't linked to Ice. They are Earth Singers. The fact that the First Men adopted the religion of the CotF doesn't mean that their magical abilities (if they had any) changed. The Storm Lords, especially the Durranduns, seem linked to Air/Wind/Storm magic. Some of the riverland houses may have had Water magic similar to the Rhoynar, but on a smaller scale. The Gardeners seem to definitely be Earth-oriented themselves. The Ironborn seem to be possible Sea Singers. There doesn't seem to be any Fire Singers amongst the First Men - they seem to all be in Valyria. Did Valyria corner the market on Fire magic?

 

The story is about Ice and Fire because those two magics should be cancelling each other out, but aren't. They are out of control. Fire magic became concentrated in Valyria; Ice magic became concentrated in the north of Westeros. That unnatural separation is probably what screwed up the seasons. It is also likely threatening all life in the world. That's what needs to get fixed. And the Earth Singers are the ones who know that.

 

Hardhome might have been an attempt by someone, presumably Valyrians, to establish a fire-based colony similar to Dragonstone. It blew up in their face. (Dragonstone was occupied by the Valyrians 600 years ago, the same time that Hardhome was destroyed. Probably not a coincidence.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always assumed the Children/Singers took out Hardhome because a city was being built in "their" lands. While they will tolerate the Wildlings wandering around, they will not tolerate them forming a city.

 

Now, part of why I assume that, is that I also assume that the Singers were not opposed to the Others in the last war at all. It's the 100 obsidian daggers and arrow heads per year thing, it just sounds like a war reparation, after all, a gift would not be that specific.

 

I also think the battle when Bran arrived was completely staged to keep him and his friends there, I mean Summer wanders around no problem and it just seemed convenient.

 

I don't know if the Singers created the Others, but to me they are not enemies in the same sense that the Others are the enemies of man. If George is not planning on having the Others as "evil" a la Orcs from Tolkien, then they must be a force of Nature, which is neutral and capricious, but not evil as such and the Singers are all about Nature and probably balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I wouldn't assume that we are headed toward a conflict between Ice and Fire. The title is a Song of Ice and Fire, not Ice against Fire.

 

In the end, we could very well end up with a union of Dragons and Others, or more specifically between dragon blood (Fire) and Other blood (Ice), both of which could be present in the central character, Jon Snow, and perhaps Dany as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the starks created the others. that is why their house words are winter is coming. it is a threat. once they realized they messed up they went to the singers for help.

That would be cool and shocking, with the Starks being the supposedly 'good guys' of the series. It would make sense if their house words is a specific threat more than a general warning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cotf created the others. how else would they know obsidian kills them and the spells that are used to keep them away.
maybe the song of ice and fire is one of redemption for the targaryens and Starks. not necessarily fire vs ice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

cotf created the others. how else would they know obsidian kills them and the spells that are used to keep them away.
maybe the song of ice and fire is one of redemption for the targaryens and Starks. not necessarily fire vs ice.

 

We do not know with any sort of certainty that the CotF created the Others. They know many things from all the Greenseers and CotF who have merged with the Weirwood before them. They also used obsidian weapons regularly as part of their kit when the First Men came, they could have discovered it's properties versus the White Walkers ( who may be different than the Others) at any point before if not during the Long Winter.

 

Maybe the Song of Ice and Fire is an epic dirge about the deaths of two houses who will not give up their control of the cycle keeping it out of balance. I don't think that is how it will end, but there is as much evidence for that outcome as there is for any redemption story. If we end up having Starks marrying Targaryens, making sweet little babies and making the world alright I think I will throw up in my mouth a little bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the starks created the others. that is why their house words are winter is coming. it is a threat. once they realized they messed up they went to the singers for help.

We do not have any evidence for this. It is as likely the Others are the original First Men's Gods, the ones of Skies or Storm and Water or Ocean, angry and seeking retribution against those who signed a pact excluding them.

It may be that you are correct about it being a threat rather than purely a warning and in some ways about the Starks creating the Others but the First Men, Starks included, turned to the children well before the Long Night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's Ice vs Fire. The Earth Singers' objective is to maintain a balance between the two, so in Westeros they end up fighting against Ice.

 

 

 

The Starks are linked to Ice - they were the Kings of Winter after the Long Night ended. (That gives us a major hint about a possible link between the Starks and the Others.) But the CotF aren't linked to Ice. They are Earth Singers. The fact that the First Men adopted the religion of the CotF doesn't mean that their magical abilities (if they had any) changed. The Storm Lords, especially the Durranduns, seem linked to Air/Wind/Storm magic. Some of the riverland houses may have had Water magic similar to the Rhoynar, but on a smaller scale. The Gardeners seem to definitely be Earth-oriented themselves. The Ironborn seem to be possible Sea Singers. There doesn't seem to be any Fire Singers amongst the First Men - they seem to all be in Valyria. Did Valyria corner the market on Fire magic?

 

The story is about Ice and Fire because those two magics should be cancelling each other out, but aren't. They are out of control. Fire magic became concentrated in Valyria; Ice magic became concentrated in the north of Westeros. That unnatural separation is probably what screwed up the seasons. It is also likely threatening all life in the world. That's what needs to get fixed. And the Earth Singers are the ones who know that.

 

Hardhome might have been an attempt by someone, presumably Valyrians, to establish a fire-based colony similar to Dragonstone. It blew up in their face. (Dragonstone was occupied by the Valyrians 600 years ago, the same time that Hardhome was destroyed. Probably not a coincidence.)

 

I don't see to many examples of First Men having magical abilities before making friends with the CotF, sometime before the Pact in isolated small pockets, and none that aren't linked to the Children. Even Bran the Builder who supposedly built Storm's End when he was a "child" as the text could infer. Probably just referring to his youth but it always struck me as interesting. At any rate the link you see to the elements might be a little skewed. The first of the Durrandons, Durran "Godsgrief" apparently "won the love" of Elenei, the daughter of the Sea God and the Goddess of the Wind. He was powerless against their magics until either he, or Bran the Builder depending on which tale you believe, built Storm's End with the help of the CotF. The Gardeners, if their descent from Garth Greenhand is correct, seem very much to be of the "Song of the Earth" which puts them and probably most other First Men in the Children's camp even very early. The Sistermen and the Ironborn both worship the original First Men Gods but see them quite differently. The Ironborn see both as male and in opposition. The Sistermen see them as Male and Female and their union is what makes Storms that both fertilize crops and sink ships. They are almost as far apart as you can get and still be in the same "pantheon" but both the original "elements" are there as it were.

 

I do agree, mostly, with what you have said in your final two paragraphs, just worth mentioning that it is also right around the same time as the Doom of Valyria even accounting for the fuzzy timelines, unreliable narrator stuff. The real occupation of Dragonstone was what 12 years or so before the Doom? Can we even be certain that the events around Hardhome didn't trigger the Doom? We have what the Faceless Men say but they have an axe to grind and a need to make themselves out to be more than just assassins and the Maesters who say the histories tell of too much magic and too much digging but really there are no reliable accounts as to what really triggered the Doom.

 

I am not saying it did trigger or cause the Doom, but it seems definetly to be a significant event leading up to it whether Valyrians were there or not. Perhaps men of Westeros making contact with "those who sing the song of fire" was simply too much for the Others to tolerate and they just wiped them out but moved no further. Perhaps the Valyrians were their own undoing we just can't say. It's interesting to speculate on even as to whether the Valryians were there or not.

 

ETA: Did a little research instead of posting from memory. Dragonstone appears to be colonized by Valyrians only two centuries before the Doom, instead of longer ago as I had misremembered, but the rest still stands especially since they are rumored to have been one of the groups present in an ancient trading post that eventually became Hightower. So they were well traveled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What we are expecting is a showdown between forces of Ice and Fire. Melisandre and the dragons both have connection to Asshai by the Shadow. They are evidently related to Fire. But it is often observed that the Children of Forest, Bloodraven, Greenseers and by extension the Starks are connected to the forces of Ice. We don't know much about Others, except that they are very vulnerable to anything dragon'/fire-related. And the Others and wights are undeniably connected to the forces of Ice. If the Starks and/or the Boltons have Other blood, then they could also be related to the forces of Ice. But team Bloodraven clearly belong to the forces of Earth, and not Ice or Fire. Yes, he has dragon blood. Yes, he could also have Stark blood. But most importantly he is the last greenseer. The greenseers are related to the Old Gods and Children of the Forest. At the beginning of the story, only the North follows the Old Gods. So we (at least I did) associate Old Gods with the cold and ice of the North. But actually it is a very nature-based, 'green' religion. Earth is the major force here. Not Ice nor Fire. CoTF sing the song of Earth. Trees and plants need soil to grow. Both the extreme cold of Lands of Always Winter, and the all-day sunlight promised by Azor Ahai is bad for the trees, and bad for the men of Westeros. So if the 'Song of Ice and Fire' belongs to the Prince that was promised, this Prince will need to fight both.

It is not Ice vs Fire, but Earth vs Ice & FIre.

But there are many problems with this theory:

1. The children helped the building of the Wall and probably Storm's End, too. Both places are protected by magic. While Storm's End keeps shadows away, Melisandre's magic grows stronger at the Wall.

(Weak explanation: SE magic could be a protection from Fire attack, but Wall magic is made to defend the Ice attack. Enemy of the enemy is friend, so Wall is friendly towards Melisandre while Storm's End is not)

2. The children used to give dragonglass to the NW. Obsidian is a fire-related weapon (but basically it comes from earth). The only way the anyone can defeat the Others is by fire-magic. Dragonfire, dragonsteel, dragonglass. At least in the war against Others, forces of Fire will be a help. There is no reason to believe that Ice and Fire will act together to harm Westeros.

Weak explanation: Remember Hardhome:

It is interesting that the place was not attacked by Others, nor Snowstorms, but burned down?

Most likely it was some natural disaster, like a volcano eruption. But this is ASOIAF, Nothing happens without a reason. Especially nothing so terribly vivid as the tragedy at Hardhome.

...

I know its tinfoil, but what do you think? Especially those are in Team Bran Stark?

 

 

 I tend to agree with some parts of your theory. I believe it was why Bran was chosen as opposed to Jon or Rickon who represent opposing sides of the old Oak/Holly King Allusion pointed out by members like Black Crow and Wolfmaid7 in the Heresy threads. Why I bring them up in particular is the color of the Direwolves eyes. The CotF historically looked for those who had green or red eyes to be their greenseers, while they themselves typically have yellow/golden eyes. The direwolves in question Jon/Ghost = red eyes, Rickon/Shaggy Dog = green eyes and Bran/Summer = golden eyes. It could be the CotF can finally break the Oak/Holly, Winter/Summer imbalance by not choosing one side or the other any longer.

 

Whether that is because of Brynden Rivers, who has both Valyrian Blood and First Men blood ( can't say Stark for sure but strong First Men blood, Blackwoods were one of the few devout Old God worshippers south of the Neck), or because of some other reason I have yet to fully ken they seem to be more able or willing to assist the change that needs to happen. That's part of why they chose Bran.

 

I do not believe Bran to be the PtwP but I believe he will realize he must fight both to have a even the smallest hope for a Dream of Spring. That may mean working against members of his own family, any other comers who represent other factions, such as Targaryens before realizing his fate is well and truly fixed.

 

To some of your specific points we have some fuzzy timelines and unreliable narrators that tell us that they helped build both structures but we don't know for certain they built either. I think it's slightly more probable they helped build Storm's End than they did the Wall. The Wall has Men passing through tunnels they have made and built easily, but at the Black Gate men must repeat an old version of the Night's Watch vow to be able to pass the Wall at the bottom of a well as old as the wall itself. It is made of Weirwood which certainly indicates a CotF link but it could just as easily indicate a passage using post-Pact First Men's magical and familiar belief symbolism for enforcing and restricting the movement from the north to the south, or vice versa, of men. We only see men move easily through it in the tunnels they have carved and we don't yet know how it affects the White Walkers or the Others. Alternatively, it could well have been raised by the CotF and is one of the things that must "come down" if balance is to be restored.

 

To point 2, we must be careful confusing Others and White walkers. We do not know with any certainty that we have or will see the Others. We have seen White Walkers and they are vulnerable to dragonglass. That alone would be reason enough to value it. In the War to Come or Metaphysical War or whatever you would like to call it both Fire and Ice will do a great deal of harm although probably not acting together. There may be many ways to defeat the Others and what Bran will be up to will probably decide the "fate" there.

 

So there are some thoughts from a proud member of Team Brandon.  :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...