Morgul-Blade Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I spent the last half an hour watching Preston Jacobs [Tower of Joy videos] try to convince me that R+L=D and B+A=J is the more likely situation. He uses a loose timeline as evidence, and tries to tie in various reasons as to why it's more likely. I just don't buy it. He does make a fairly convincing argument, but for that to be the true story, the reveal in the books would be an absolute mess of connect the dots. The possibility for some B+A action is actually quite convincing. I subscribe to R+L=J but considering other options is sometimes fun. Has anybody else watched these videos? Does anybody have some killer rebuttals or some support for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 well he makes a bunch of assumptions that aren't supported by the text and then builds on those assumptions as though they are fact. i love how he says: how exactly brandon and ashara had time to make a baby isn't important...ummm what?!? and he uses lemongate as part of his theory, so that's a strike against him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgul-Blade Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 well he makes a bunch of assumptions that aren't supported by the text and then builds on those assumptions as though they are fact. i love how he says: how exactly brandon and ashara had time to make a baby isn't important...ummm what?!? and he uses lemongate as part of his theory, so that's a strike against him... Agreed. I'm also a bit disappointed that he doesn't mention the possibility of Ser Arthur Dayne being alive. Of all the other cryptic phrases he discusses, the "but for Howland Reed" does not close the door on The Sword of the Morning's life. I wouldn't mind if Jon is Brandon and Ashara's child, but the rest seems far fetched to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GtrGbln Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Preston Jacobs is a pitiful clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgul-Blade Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Preston Jacobs is a pitiful clown. Let's be nice, I'm looking for discussion here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think BAJ is about as likely as Robb and Jon being switched in their nursery and Robb being raised as Jon and joining the NW and Jon being raised as Robb and killed at the RW. There's no proof and it doesn't really make sense except in a twilight zone "anything is possible" kind of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 There is no serious question about Jon's parentage. R+L=J is true. There are, however, many reasons to question Dany's parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorVoid Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Prbolem is, GRRM said that you shouldn't take RR timeline seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 There is no serious question about Jon's parentage. R+L=J is true. There are, however, many reasons to question Dany's parentage. How about R+L = J & D? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgul-Blade Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 How about R+L = J & D? I don't think that's an insane idea, but also very little to prove it. I somehow think Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne is involved with whatever the truth might be - perhaps he was in the know about shuttling a baby Dany out of Dorne? Note: major speculation, so don't yell at me. I'm just spitballing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I could have gone with parts of his theory, but Daenerys just doesn't figure into the equation. A simple no-go. I do subscribe to R+L= J, although minor details do keep bugging me. I think it is generally very acceptable. But the whole Ashara part is fascinating me a lot. I'm pretty sure she isn't dead. Her death seems much more like a ruse. And that could be eplained for a need to take care of the sword 'Dawn'. Still, i think the 'stillborn girl' she is supposed to have had wasn't a stillborn child (male or female) either. So that would indeed leave the question open, who's baby did she give brith to? We know she was 'dishonored' at Harrenhal, and she was pregnant too. So yeah, Brandon isn't a bad guess at all. But there might be reason to believe that the kid might have been a child of Oberyn or Prince Lewyn Martell too. And a case can be made for each of them why Ashara would hide the parentage. Brandon, well he just came to die and it would dishonor him but also hurt Catelyn and cast doubts on Brandons honor unnecesarily. It it was Oberyn's kid, it might be that he actually did dishonor her and she's trying to shield of any possible influence of House Martell, especially Oberyn. But then again, it might also be Prince Lewyn's. We know he had a paramour, maybe Ashara. But having a secret paramour is one thing, fathering a child is something totally different. Prince Lewyn was a Kingsguard, so she might have wanted to protect his honor by hiding the baby and it's parentage. I know none of these three are actually supported by the text, but there is indeed a possibilty that Ashara had her reasons to give birth to the child but still keep it hidden. But that is a likely situation until Eddard comes along with 'Dawn'. Here it's possible that Arthur actually died, but i'm not entirely convinced, yet. However, i can come up with reasons why he wouldn't want to carry 'Dawn' around any longer. The first that comes to mind, is that the sword is very distinguishable so he would be recognised no matter what his plans were. And i think it might even be that he tried to retire, so he had no more need for the sword. That and other possibilities. Or he's simply dead. But in all cases the sword goes to Ashara and i think she knows that she better would go into hiding to protect the sword and her child. That is also pure conjecture but it's just a few quick guesses at the motives of the people involved. It surely isn't supported by the text. There is a possibility that there might indeed be 2 babies at play, and they might indeed have been switched. However the mathematics involved in such a scenario and that is supported by the text would have to be changed to R+L= ? and A+? = J All the rest is speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I like the Ashara is alive theory How about R + L = J (& D), A + H = M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edd fetch me the boo box Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Preston Jacobs is a pitiful clown.Be nice. Unenviable mime. On topic, I wish Brandon Stark had a bastard son that Ned brought back to Winterfell and raised with his kids, replacing that useless little Rickon, hell he could even be named Rickon (although I think Rickard would be more appropriate) and have the same wolf (albeit with a more mature name, Dark Wind, anyone?), just as he could inherit Brandon's wildness. He could be a bit older than Robb and Jon, out of the line of succession, and a nice foil for both, as in Jon's case, one would be Rhaegar's kid and the other would be "Come out and die"'s kid. And as a foil for Robb he'd be less "lordly" and more like a wild Stark of old, as well as probably a fucking terror in battle, since being Brandon's kid would likely make him a bit bigger than Robby boy and Jonny boy, as Brandon was described as a quite a bit taller than Ned, and on top of that, prowess seems to be inheritable in the series. It would be interesting. And a good way of showing through Brandon's son's wolfsblood, and Jon's melancholic Rhaegar moods, that Jon isn't exactly like the other Starks, also Ghost is white with red eyes; Shaggy is black with green eyes; Opposites in both ways. I feel like this is what should have happened and GRRM just decided against it. Haha. It would also set up an interesting conflict if both bastards survived the RW. SNOW VS. SNOW VS. SNOWLTON. THE RUMBLE IN THE TUNDRA WINNER TAKE ALL. Obviously the two Stark snows would team up and gangfuck Ramsay's bitch ass. I also would like this because you would have a kid of each of Ned's siblings, save for Benjen, who was too young and then took the black not long after, being raised as one family unit in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 All them theories, those pointless baby swaps, those dreadful "=" (Euron Naharis is Daario Reed is Howland Greyjoy is the High Sparrow or something) have a fundamental flaw: they're conceived primarily to introduce a new twisty twist into the story. So they're garbage undeserving a second glance. Here's a simple test I subject all forum theories to: "does it make things simpler? does it help make sense out of fragments of the story that previously didn't quite fit?". If yes, then I give them a chance. If not, then, well, garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrich The Mad Mouse Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 i love how he says: how exactly brandon and ashara had time to make a baby isn't important...ummm what?!? just by chance I couldn't sleep yesterday so I re-watched the 3 Tower of Joy videos and when I heard him say "it doesn't matter" I felt it was a poor statement to make about such a important point....but I think he was saying that this point is unfalsifiable so was of little importance either way.... Let's be nice, I'm looking for discussion here. :agree: I think Preston is great and does well researched, well edited videos and he got me into reading GRRM's old stories; if you read Dreamsongs almost everything agrees with Preston's theory of ASoIaF being an SF story, even the biographical chapters!! Agree or not with him, you should never fall asleep while he is talking about visions to "kill yourself" :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 All them theories, those pointless baby swaps, those dreadful "=" (Euron Naharis is Daario Reed is Howland Greyjoy is the High Sparrow or something) have a fundamental flaw: they're conceived primarily to introduce a new twisty twist into the story. So they're garbage undeserving a second glance. Here's a simple test I subject all forum theories to: "does it make things simpler? does it help make sense out of fragments of the story that previously didn't quite fit?". If yes, then I give them a chance. If not, then, well, garbage. Well Howland could easily be the one of the Stark party that dishonored Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhall it fits all the information given, plus you've got Howland with Ned when the confront Arthur and when they returned Dawn to Starfall so he's there at all the important parts of the Dayne storyline and he's also the only one that know the full story. Ashara had a girl, Meera is a girl and the right age. It doesn't really make things any more complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Well Howland could easily be the one of the Stark party that dishonored Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhall it fits all the information given, plus you've got Howland with Ned when the confront Arthur and when they returned Dawn to Starfall so he's there at all the important parts of the Dayne storyline and he's also the only one that know the full story. Ashara had a girl, Meera is a girl and the right age. It doesn't really make things any more complex. I was referring to the "HR=HS" bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I was referring to the "HR=HS" bullshit. Yeah that one is pretty convoluted and a bit over the top. I do think the Grand Northern Conspiracy has some merit though because again it fits with the available information I'd contend it's more far more likely (and simpler) that Howland is involved in orchestrating things in the North rather than at Kings Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yeah that one is pretty convoluted and a bit over the top. I do think the Grand Northern Conspiracy has some merit though because again it fits with the available information I'd contend it's more far more likely (and simpler) that Howland is involved in orchestrating things in the North rather than at Kings Landing. If your a fan of the GNC check this out if you have some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Both theories don't make much sense and fail to adequately answer very simple questions. B+A=J does not answer the question of why Ned would keep this a secret. A bastard of B & A poses no threat so no reason for Ned to keep this info from Catelyn. R+L=D serves no narrative purpose and requires us to ignore the timeline. All it does is make Dany, a known Targ, into a 'secret Targ and comes across as a twist just for the sake of shock value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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