The Line(s) of Aerys & Rhaella

[ChillyPolly]

This is just a bit of brainstorming.  Feel free to shoot it down.

 

As Barristan relayed to Dany in DANCE, Jahaerys (Egg's pro-incest son) ordered his two children, Aerys and Rhaella, to marry each other; and was influenced to do this by a woods' witch prophesy, where she had said that the Prince That Was Promised ("PtwP") would come from "their line", by which Barristan means the line of Aerys & Rhaella.

 

Prophesies are treacherous.  It is practically a cliche that whenever a king or prince acts on the basis of a prophesy, he has almost always misunderstood the prophesy.  So how might Jahaerys have misunderstood the prophesy of the woods witch regarding the PtwP?

 

I mean to explore the implications of 2 WHAT IFs

[1] What if the prophesy of the woods' witch is misunderstood, and the PtwP does not descend from the union of Rhaella & Aerys, but rather from their separate unions with other people.

[2] What if the PtwP is a character we know (and not, for instance, someone to be born in the future to characters we know; as, the child of Jon and Dany).

 

Inbreeding leads to trouble - birth defects, madness, stillbirths, miscarriages, non-viable offspring.  And that is what happened to Rhaella.  IIRC she had 3 miscarriages, 3 stillbirths and 3 children who did not survive their infancy, and one mad-man (Viserys).

 

The two exceptions, Rhaegar and Dany, might conceivably not be exceptions.  There are theories that Rhaegar might be a bastard (born of adultery or sex on the eve of marriage) and that Dany might be a changeling (replacing a dead sister, & to be used by Viserys to buy an ally and an army).  But let's lay the second of these ideas aside.  I am concerned primarily with the former.

 

If Rhaella had a bastard offspring - one old enough to be a parent of a current PtwP -  it would have to be Rhaegar.   (Dany is probably not a bastard, and even if she is she has never had a live offspring; likewise Viserys has never sired a child nor even had a lover of whom we know.)  Rhaegar dates almost from the time when Rhaella and a certain young knight named Bonifer Hasty were very much in love, and that love was mutual.  What are the significance of these details?  Our first WHAT IF above allows Rhaegar to be the father of a PtwP (as he supposed himself to be), even if he is the son of Bonifer.

 

But to do so, under our first WHAT IF, he must unite with a young woman who is the bastard daughter of King Aerys.  If Rhaegar realized this, it might explain why he was no longer satisfied to remain faithful to Elia, who was born too early to have been sired by Aerys.

 

We know of no such bastard daughters.  But we do know that Aerys had many mistresses between the period 262 and 275 (and possibly before), and was also known to take liberties with other noblemen's wives.  So what female characters do we know who were born in the period 262 to 275?

 

Ashara?

Tysha?

Lyanna?

Cersei?

Lysa?

 

The 2 with the strongest connection to Rhaegar are Lyanna and Ashara.  Lyanna has the typical Stark features (which however, she COULD have gotten from her mom), but Ashara has violet eyes (which, however, is not unusual in a Dayne).

[ChillyPolly]

What?  No thoughts?

 

It seemed at least an interesting idea.  For one thing, it might explain why Rhaegar felt he needed to screw around in order to obtain the "promised prince".  He may have realized that Aerys was not his dad.

[Rippounet]

I think you raise some interesting points:

- The "line" prophecy may have been misread.

- Rhaegar may not be Aerys's son.

- Aerys may have had a hidden child.

 

I'm not sure what to make of all this though. The problem is that the union of "Aerys & Rhaella's lines" is way too complicated. And while Rhaegar may have been a bastard, I'm not sure we can build on such an assumption to make yet other assumptions. Finally, while it makes sense for Aerys to have a hidden child (or two), no good candidate really comes to mind.

[Castellan]

I think their line means their line.

[Sanset]

This is fun!! :)

 

 

I still think Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' offspring because that "seldom" in the World book leaves the door open to speculation. GRRM didn't close the door like he did when he gave Darkstar age to stop the theory that said he could be Rhaegar, or when he said that Rhaenys died during the sack of King's Landing (but never confirmed about Aegon). We don't really know what the Mad King had in mind, he was mad but he did had certain connection with reality, and his thoughts were quite accurate in some points. I mean, what if he was against the PtwP like Baelor the Blessed and that's why he was so against the marriage of Rhaegar and Cersei, and he wanted Jaime in the Kingsguard just to prevent him to conceive a child.
I think Aerys knew more things that it shows. Besides, Aerys was a true Targaryen after all, so he was interested in dragon prophecy stuff. Egg was so sensible and he believed these prophecies.

I agree that Ashara was in the middle of all this. George keeps on mentioning her, and we know she was a major secret from the beginning. Ash has to play a part in the last two books, alive, I think, or at least in a flashback, or both. Besides, Aegon V's mother was Dyanna *Dayne*. There's some theme here, but I think GRRM will unveil it at the end of the books. He kept some of the secrets to make the story truly unpredictable.

 

I think I could agree about Rhaegar being Rhaella's child but not Aerys, as a parallel of Joanna Lannister. Both marriages are conveniently between two people so similar that any child that looks like any of them could be a bastard. The problem would be if the bastard child is not like both parents. That's the basis of the hypothesis of Darktar being Rhaella's child with one of the Kingsguard (like the minotaur).

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

My theory about the GoHH prophecy is that if blood is important, then having recent First Men and Rhoynar heritage may have been important.

 

One thing that's fascinating about Aerys' line is that genetically, Rhaegar, Dany, and Viserys are identical to Jaehaerys/Shaera (brother-sister) and Aerys/Rhaella (brother-sister). Jaeharys and Shaera's parents were Egg, who's a Targ on his dad's side and a Dayne on his mother's, and Betha of the mysterious House Blackwood, one of the few First Men houses in the Riverlands, and the house that produced Bloodraven.

 

We've had lots of talk on this forum about GRRM genetics, but I don't think it's by accident that we learned Egg's true love and Queen was likely a worshipper of the Old Gods. I wonder if Egg and Betha, either one of them or both, ran into the GoHH when they were younger. The entire Jenny of Oldstones affair (where did that girl come from? Oldstones? Do people live there? WTF?) reeks of something eerie, as is the prophecy, as is the entire Summerhall thing. Sometimes I wonder if Egg trekking around Westeros with Dunk ended up stirring up the old magic... but then, Bloodraven was still living and active, and there was just so much going on then.

 

If we do ever get a prequel series, as much as I'd love to see RR, I'm starting to lean more toward Dunk and Egg. I think so many of the seeds of ASOIAF were sown almost 100 years before, early in the 3rd century.

[Mithras]

I think their line means their line.

This.

[Magnar of Skagos]

I think their line means their line.

Thanks for clearing that up :P

[ChillyPolly]

I think their line means their line.

That's what Barristan means, yes. But that may merely reflect his understanding. He does not report the extact words verbatim.

[Lord Varys]

If there are hidden meanings to all this, and if there are multiple saviors (three heads of the dragon) then one of them might actually not be a descendant of both Rhaella and Aerys, but only of one of them. Say, Tyrion, as a son of Aerys and Joanna who was only conceived the way he was because Aerys and Rhaella married each other.

[Mithras]

If there are hidden meanings to all this, and if there are multiple saviors (three heads of the dragon) then one of them might actually not be a descendant of both Rhaella and Aerys, but only of one of them. Say, Tyrion, as a son of Aerys and Joanna who was only conceived the way he was because Aerys and Rhaella married each other.

 

There is no reason to interpret it this way :)

[Lord Varys]

Well, interpreting it the literal well would 'be far too easy', don't you think? After all, George doesn't do things that way, right? Or rather: He does them only not in this way when you think special pleading is in order ;-).

[CJ McLannister]

Prophecy is indeed treacherous.  A parallel to your theory is the frog line about Robert's 16 children and Cersei's 3.  Everything concerning the Prince that was Promised is a little sketchy because we're not really sure what the prince (or princess, or princes) were promised to do, or who made the promise.  Just like all the theories that Lightbringer isn't/wasn't a sword, what if the prince isn't a person?  

[ChillyPolly]

I think you raise some interesting points:
- The "line" prophecy may have been misread.
- Rhaegar may not be Aerys's son.
- Aerys may have had a hidden child.

I'm not sure what to make of all this though. The problem is that the union of "Aerys & Rhaella's lines" is way too complicated. And while Rhaegar may have been a bastard, I'm not sure we can build on such an assumption to make yet other assumptions. Finally, while it makes sense for Aerys to have a hidden child (or two), no good candidate really comes to mind.

I agree that all this is very iffy. I think there are good clues suggesting Rhaegar may be a bastard, but it is by no means certain. And if it is true, it could mean any number of things, like (1) the PtwP will not descend from Rhaegar; (2) the PtwP prophesy is a load of nonsense; (3) the woods witch prophesy is a load of nonsense; or (4) the PtwP will be born during a Dream of Spring to the happy union of a descendant of Aerys and a descendant of Rhaella.

I can't agree that the "union of lines" idea is way too complicated. It is the most normal thing in the world. Lines unite all the time. Most of us have 4 grandparents; and not merely 2 grandparents (as where there is sibling incest) or 3 grandparents (from incest involving half siblings, aunts, uncles, nephews or nieces). I am descended from all 4 of my grandparents. So if John and Mary are both my grandparents and a woods witch says I am descended from John and Mary, this is a true statement. It is true even if John is my paternal grandfather and Mary my maternal grandmother; and if they never united with each other. But it's easy to see how one might carelessly assume that one descended, in direct line, from John and from Mary, is descended in directly line from their direct union.

I agree that we don't have any "strong candidates" in the sense of having any evidence (other than Aerys' sexual exploits; and the implications of the theory itself) that any particular person (other than Cersei?) is a female bastard of Aerys. But the nature of the situation (hidden bastards, which you admit is likely) is such that we would not necessarily know. You can argue that GRRM would have given more clues, but that's very subjective. And the fact is we know so little about so many things because GRRM has chosen to keep mum. Why did Mr. Perfect Prince suddenly decide that his wife was not good enough for the PtwP, and that to save the world he had to run around deflowering Dayne and Stark maidens? Maybe the best answer here is "we don't know". But it's hard to resist the temptation to try to guess and this is what I'm coming up with at the moment: that Rhaegar realized that he himself did not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and that in order to achieve this he would have to find a daughter of King Aerys and knock her up.

Lyanna is not such a terrible candidate either. She has the Stark look, but this point is deflated by the fact that her mom is a Stark by birth and not merely by marriage. Lyanna may merely take after her mom in terms of looks. We have never heard of Aerys having access to Lady Stark, but this is deflated by our knowledge that Rickard Stark was in KL in 264, and we don't know how long he stayed or how often he visited and whether Lady Stark was with him. We know even less about Ashara, but that's hardly enough to rule her out -- if Ashara served the Royal Family at KL in her youth, her mom may have done the same; and she has purple eyes too, though her Dayne heritage supposedly explains that.

[Rippounet]

I can't agree that the "union of lines" idea is way too complicated. It is the most normal thing in the world. Lines unite all the time. Most of us have 4 grandparents; and not merely 2 grandparents (as where there is sibling incest) or 3 grandparents (from incest involving half siblings, aunts, uncles, nephews or nieces). I am descended from all 4 of my grandparents. So if John and Mary are both my grandparents and a woods witch says I am descended from John and Mary, this is a true statement. It is true even if John is my paternal grandfather and Mary my maternal grandmother; and if they never united with each other. But it's easy to see how one might carelessly assume that one descended, in direct line, from John and from Mary, is descended in directly line from their direct union.

What I meant is that it's complicated with the information we have. You need to find a possible mistress and a possible daughter for Aerys with 0 textual support.

 

I agree that we don't have any "strong candidates" in the sense of having any evidence (other than Aerys' sexual exploits; and the implications of the theory itself) that any particular person (other than Cersei?) is a female bastard of Aerys. But the nature of the situation (hidden bastards, which you admit is likely) is such that we would not necessarily know. You can argue that GRRM would have given more clues, but that's very subjective. And the fact is we know so little about so many things because GRRM has chosen to keep mum.

That's the thing. Your theory isn't bad, but it's the sort of idea that one can only keep in mind when we get WoW. As it is, we have too little knowledge about Aerys's possible children to imagine this as a possible motive for Rhaegar sleeping around.

I find it hard to buy either Ashara or Lyanna being Aery's hidden daughter. We have nothing to suggest that.

 

There is one bastard I can think of, who might be a possible fit, and that's Aurane Waters. He has the right features, and his parentage is mysterious. Except Aerys took his vow in 275 and Aurane was born in 277 or 278.

 

Why did Mr. Perfect Prince suddenly decide that his wife was not good enough for the PtwP, and that to save the world he had to run around deflowering Dayne and Stark maidens? Maybe the best answer here is "we don't know". But it's hard to resist the temptation to try to guess and this is what I'm coming up with at the moment: that Rhaegar realized that he himself did not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and that in order to achieve this he would have to find a daughter of King Aerys and knock her up.

You're running in a circular argument in this paragraph. Speculating that Rhaegar may have slept with Ashara and then trying to find a reason for it.

I see no reason to believe that Rhaegar deflowered Ashara.

 

In fact, we still don't know why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. Or gave her the garland. I don't think he was trying to have a baby with her from the start.

 

Lyanna is not such a terrible candidate either. She has the Stark look, but this point is deflated by the fact that her mom is a Stark by birth and not merely by marriage. Lyanna may merely take after her mom in terms of looks. We have never heard of Aerys having access to Lady Stark, but this is deflated by our knowledge that Rickard Stark was in KL in 264, and we don't know how long he stayed or how often he visited and whether Lady Stark was with him. We know even less about Ashara, but that's hardly enough to rule her out -- if Ashara served the Royal Family at KL in her youth, her mom may have done the same; and she has purple eyes too, though her Dayne heritage supposedly explains that.

I'd actually find it easier to believe that Aerys dishonored Ashara than Rhaegar. Sure, officially, he was faithful to Rhaella at the time, but even the World Book isn't unambiguous ("If the chronicles can be believed"). The man was crazy, he wanted children, and didn't trust his wife. Plus his vow was in 275, and Harrenhal in 281 (6 years is enough to break a vow I'd say). Ashara was stunning, was "dishonored" by someone and "turned to a Stark." We don't know whether a Stark dishonored her, or whether a Stark helped her after she was raped. Also, Barry reflects that Rhaegar relied on Arthur Dayne for something important at Harrenhal.

In fact, I even toyed with idea of Aerys having Lyanna abducted, and Rhaegar rescuing her from his father.

 

If we're looking for a Targaryen sleeping around, my money'd be on Aerys more than Rhaegar. And then there are plenty of ways to make your "lines" work, as long as we assume TPtwP isn't born yet.

 

It's still a huge stretch, with no evidence.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's an intriguing thought, but I think the reason why it's assumed that it had to be Aerys + Rhaella = some descendant who will be TDtwP is because the Woods witch said Aerys AND Rhaella, not Aerys OR Rhaella.

 

It's like on a check written to two people with an "and" between the names, both have to sign to cash the check.  If it says "or" then either can do so without the other's signature.