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Robb's Plan?


Seaworth'sShipmate

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At the end of ASOS, Robb sort of articulated a plan to Catelyn and the other Northern Lords. 

 

It seemed to be a tactical retreat to the North to take care of the Ironborn.

 

My question is, what would Robb have done after he had done so? Would he have continued his war against the Lannisters? I know that if he tried to, he would most definitely lose. Renly Baratheon told Catelyn that he had many many more troops than Robb, and this was in the beginning of the war of the 5 kings. As it stood in ASOS, the Lannisters had their own soldiers, plus pretty much all of Renly's Lords as well. 

 

Could it be that Robb just would have decided to rule as King in the North? It would have been very hard for a southern army to invade the North and succeed in conquering it. Thoughts?

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I always found it so arrogant and stupid that Robb didn't retreat North after Ned's death.  He could have remained king in the North, and no one would have dared invade.

On further thought... he couldn't dig in up North, because that left the Riverlands exposed.  They were part of his kingdom.  He couldn't just abandon them.

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I dont see how keeping the Riverlands as part of his kingdom would have ever worked. Even if Robb had won the war and the IT agreed with his secession eventually a force would try and retake the Riverlands due to the its location and no natural boundaries from the other regions. I do think Robb couldve easily holed up in the North and repelled any invasion from the South if he did not have to protect the Riverlands. The only reason the North ever joined the other kingdoms was because they could not match the threat of dragons.
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The Riverlands were  the "soft underbelly" of Robb's kingdom. The North could be defended more easily, while the Riverlands were allways in danger to be asaulted from every side. Allas, Robb was proclaimed King at Riverrun, by a mixed force of northmen and lords of the Trident, his gandfather was the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, so he felt the need to protect those lands as well, as unsound it might be. Admiting defeat, retreating to the North would be a cautious plan althogh cruel and unjust toward the Riverland. With Robb retreathing it would be a wise thing to every Riverland Lord to turn his cloac as fast as he can.

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The Riverlands aren't all that undefensible, tbh. If you leave forces/castles at the Golden Tooth, Stony Sept, Harrenhal and (if you've got the Arryns against you) Lord Harroway's Town, most of Robb's land stays well defended.

His Lannister conquests are protected from reclamation by the Tooth, any force that tries to go up the KingsRoad has to face LHT and/or Harrenhal forces, any army that tries to use the Gold Road by the forces in Stony Sept, and any army that tries to use the Blackwater Rush have to also face the forces at Stony Sept and Harrenhal.
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Could it be that Robb just would have decided to rule as King in the North? It would have been very hard for a southern army to invade the North and succeed in conquering it. Thoughts?

 

Plan? What plan?

 

For all intent and purpose, Robb's plan was to basically abandon the Riverlands. An army ~70,000 strong was a couple weeks away, and Robb decides that this is the best time to take away half his forces, while the Ironborn are away and the troops already in the North could take care of the remaining garrisons of Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte. 

 

As KITN Robb would have a small fleet to defend his eastern shore, but it is no match for the Redwyne Fleet, let alone if the throne had added new war galleys during winter. Had the Others not showed up during the winter for some reason, come summer the Iron Throne would have sent a massive army and a massive fleet to bring the North to bend the knee again. After the losses of the war and the harsh winter, 50 war galleys are no match for 200 with experianced crews, and the ~9,000 veterans of the war plus whatever scraps remain are no match for an army 50-70,000 strong landing in White Harbor. The North would have lost, Robb was just running after easy victories without a coherent plan for how to bring about a victory. He hoped that Stannis would win on the Blackwater so that he could deal with him or likely just bend the knee. Against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance Robb had no plan. Nothing that we see points to anything more than simply running back home because he had no idea what to do down south.

 

Does anyone honestly doubt that the Riverlands would have fallen by the time Robb had sorted out the North? Even assuming that he does not have to deal with the Wildlings and the Others? Does anyone doubt that the North lacked the resources to retake the Riverlands after they had fallen from the Lannisters and the Tyrells? Does anyone doubt that the Redwyne Fleet would make short work of Manderly's 50 galleys full of new and in-experianced crews? Does anyone doubt that the 50-70,000 men would have faced far fewer numbers on the North, and in summer conditions would have little problem to take over the North?

 

Calling Robb's movement a part of a "plan" is laughable. He had no idea what to do. In the Riverlands he had a host, he had strongholds, he had access to the enemy's lands. In the North he would be stuck, the Riverlords too few and only able to play defence until they are sieged and taken. The North takes the greatest hit during winter, and the Lannisters and the Tyrells can outspend him anything he may want to hire from across the sea. The only chance to get ahead of the enemy on that front is to bend the knee to Stannis if he gets to the Wall (considering that Robb still lives, etc. etc...) and gets the loan from the Iron Bank.

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Plan? What plan?
 
For all intent and purpose, Robb's plan was to basically abandon the Riverlands. An army ~70,000 strong was a couple weeks away, and Robb decides that this is the best time to take away half his forces, while the Ironborn are away and the troops already in the North could take care of the remaining garrisons of Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte. 
 
As KITN Robb would have a small fleet to defend his eastern shore, but it is no match for the Redwyne Fleet, let alone if the throne had added new war galleys during winter. Had the Others not showed up during the winter for some reason, come summer the Iron Throne would have sent a massive army and a massive fleet to bring the North to bend the knee again. After the losses of the war and the harsh winter, 50 war galleys are no match for 200 with experianced crews, and the ~9,000 veterans of the war plus whatever scraps remain are no match for an army 50-70,000 strong landing in White Harbor. The North would have lost, Robb was just running after easy victories without a coherent plan for how to bring about a victory. He hoped that Stannis would win on the Blackwater so that he could deal with him or likely just bend the knee. Against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance Robb had no plan. Nothing that we see points to anything more than simply running back home because he had no idea what to do down south.
 
Does anyone honestly doubt that the Riverlands would have fallen by the time Robb had sorted out the North? Even assuming that he does not have to deal with the Wildlings and the Others? Does anyone doubt that the North lacked the resources to retake the Riverlands after they had fallen from the Lannisters and the Tyrells? Does anyone doubt that the Redwyne Fleet would make short work of Manderly's 50 galleys full of new and in-experianced crews? Does anyone doubt that the 50-70,000 men would have faced far fewer numbers on the North, and in summer conditions would have little problem to take over the North?
 
Calling Robb's movement a part of a "plan" is laughable. He had no idea what to do. In the Riverlands he had a host, he had strongholds, he had access to the enemy's lands. In the North he would be stuck, the Riverlords too few and only able to play defence until they are sieged and taken. The North takes the greatest hit during winter, and the Lannisters and the Tyrells can outspend him anything he may want to hire from across the sea. The only chance to get ahead of the enemy on that front is to bend the knee to Stannis if he gets to the Wall (considering that Robb still lives, etc. etc...) and gets the loan from the Iron Bank.


He may have been able to hold the north. At least it's better than waiting to die in the Riverlands.

And yes, the Riverlords should have bled the Lannister and Tyrell forces dry. Imagine dozens of Riverruns. Add onto that no Frey or Riverland conscripts.
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Plan? What plan?

 

For all intent and purpose, Robb's plan was to basically abandon the Riverlands. An army ~70,000 strong was a couple weeks away, and Robb decides that this is the best time to take away half his forces, while the Ironborn are away and the troops already in the North could take care of the remaining garrisons of Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte. 

 

As KITN Robb would have a small fleet to defend his eastern shore, but it is no match for the Redwyne Fleet, let alone if the throne had added new war galleys during winter. Had the Others not showed up during the winter for some reason, come summer the Iron Throne would have sent a massive army and a massive fleet to bring the North to bend the knee again. After the losses of the war and the harsh winter, 50 war galleys are no match for 200 with experianced crews, and the ~9,000 veterans of the war plus whatever scraps remain are no match for an army 50-70,000 strong landing in White Harbor. The North would have lost, Robb was just running after easy victories without a coherent plan for how to bring about a victory. He hoped that Stannis would win on the Blackwater so that he could deal with him or likely just bend the knee. Against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance Robb had no plan. Nothing that we see points to anything more than simply running back home because he had no idea what to do down south.

 

Does anyone honestly doubt that the Riverlands would have fallen by the time Robb had sorted out the North? Even assuming that he does not have to deal with the Wildlings and the Others? Does anyone doubt that the North lacked the resources to retake the Riverlands after they had fallen from the Lannisters and the Tyrells? Does anyone doubt that the Redwyne Fleet would make short work of Manderly's 50 galleys full of new and in-experianced crews? Does anyone doubt that the 50-70,000 men would have faced far fewer numbers on the North, and in summer conditions would have little problem to take over the North?

 

Calling Robb's movement a part of a "plan" is laughable. He had no idea what to do. In the Riverlands he had a host, he had strongholds, he had access to the enemy's lands. In the North he would be stuck, the Riverlords too few and only able to play defence until they are sieged and taken. The North takes the greatest hit during winter, and the Lannisters and the Tyrells can outspend him anything he may want to hire from across the sea. The only chance to get ahead of the enemy on that front is to bend the knee to Stannis if he gets to the Wall (considering that Robb still lives, etc. etc...) and gets the loan from the Iron Bank.

 

The only way that Robb had a chance against the combined might of the Tyrells and Lannisters was to have a all the resources of the North behind him . As long as the Ironborn were in the North he had no choice but to go and drive them out and reclaim the North . He had to hope that the Riverlords would be able to hold out against the Iron Throne long enough for him to return . The Riverland were battle hardened and led by some of the toughest commanders around( Blackfish, Jason Mallister, Lord Blackwood and Lord Braken, ect ) and there would be no surprise attack this time.

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The only way that Robb had a chance against the combined might of the Tyrells and Lannisters was to have a all the resources of the North behind him . As long as the Ironborn were in the North he had no choice but to go and drive them out and reclaim the North . He had to hope that the Riverlords would be able to hold out against the Iron Throne long enough for him to return . The Riverland were battle hardened and led by some of the toughest commanders around( Blackfish, Jason Mallister, Lord Blackwood and Lord Braken, ect ) and there would be no surprise attack this time.



The first part is completely wrong. The North wasn't doing anything for Robb, whether MC was open or not. His kingdom was the Riverlands.
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I dont see how keeping the Riverlands as part of his kingdom would have ever worked. Even if Robb had won the war and the IT agreed with his secession eventually a force would try and retake the Riverlands due to the its location and no natural boundaries from the other regions. I do think Robb couldve easily holed up in the North and repelled any invasion from the South if he did not have to protect the Riverlands. The only reason the North ever joined the other kingdoms was because they could not match the threat of dragons.

 

Any force attacking the Riverlands would know that they would soon be facing 20,000 Northerners as well as the Riverlords and that would keep most from trying to attack the Riverlands. Plus the fact that the Riverlands would be adding to their defenses if they no long had the protection of the Iron Throne . The Tully's let things slide over the years because they felt safe under the protection of the Iron Throne. Letting Harrenhall be undermanned was something that should never have happened. Tywin getting Harrenhall so easily really screwed up Robb and the Riverlords. 

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Any force attacking the Riverlands would know that they would soon be facing 20,000 Northerners as well as the Riverlords and that would keep most from trying to attack the Riverlands. Plus the fact that the Riverlands would be adding to their defenses if they no long had the protection of the Iron Throne . The Tully's let things slide over the years because they felt safe under the protection of the Iron Throne. Letting Harrenhall be undermanned was something that should never have happened. Tywin getting Harrenhall so easily really screwed up Robb and the Riverlords.


Harrenhal fell because plot. Harrenhal is supposed to have a very rich demesne. They should have nearly as many soldiers as the Freys.

3,000-4,000 men should be able to hold a castle against 20,000. It has happened many times before.
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The first part is completely wrong. The North wasn't doing anything for Robb, whether MC was open or not. His kingdom was the Riverlands.

 

You are going to have to explain to me what was wrong about the first part. His Kingdom is the North and the Riverlands. How could he possibly fight the Tyrells and the Lannisters without getting supplies and reinforcements from the North? 

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You are going to have to explain to me what was wrong about the first part. His Kingdom is the North and the Riverlands. How could he possibly fight the Tyrells and the Lannisters without getting supplies and reinforcements from the North?


You're telling me that you think he will return with more troops and supplies from the north?

Imagine the casualties against the IB. And what northern lord wants to donate supplies so their king can go south and die with them?
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Harrenhal fell because plot. Harrenhal is supposed to have a very rich demesne. They should have nearly as many soldiers as the Freys.

3,000-4,000 men should be able to hold a castle against 20,000. It has happened many times before.

 

The Whents were once a very powerful house but they have fallen  on hard times and their line had nearly died out and Lady Whent was old and tired . Fighting Tywin Lannister was not something she had any desire to do so she surrendered the Castle . It's hard to blame her for that, fighting Tywin would terrify most people. 

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The Whents were once a very powerful house but they have fallen  on hard times and their line had nearly died out and Lady Whent was old and tired . Fighting Tywin Lannister was not something she had any desire to do so she surrendered the Castle . It's hard to blame her for that, fighting Tywin would terrify most people.


The Whents are running low on heirs, not peasants.
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You're telling me that you think he will return with more troops and supplies from the north?

Imagine the casualties against the IB. And what northern lord wants to donate supplies so their king can go south and die with them?

 

Once Robb crushed the Iron Born at Moat Calin the rest are going to seriously think about retreating . Defending Castles is not what they do best . Robb Stark would not abandon the Riverlands . His wife and mother are there and he is their King so as soon as he defeats the Iron Born he will call the banners and return South. 

The Northern Lords had no problem going South with Ned Stark against the Targarayens and they joined Robb Stark pretty willingly against the Lannisters why would this time be any different?

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