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Tyrion is a Targ...Argh...Round 2


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I recently got blasted on my last post for my "TyrionTarg" theory hating (deservedly I guess).  So here is my second attempt.  Thanks to 40 Thousand Skeletons and Weirdo for showing me how to search via google and their even-keeled criticism.

 

Some general points.

 

I like Tyrion’s character.  Definitely in my top 5. The main reason is that his only weapon is his knowledge, wit, and intellect- very rare in that world.  Him being a Targ, and presumably dragon-rider diminishes this, and fundamentally changes his character.  (btw by Targ I mean Targ blood- I know he’d be a bastard if true).

 

I also like that Tyrion is Tywin in personality.  If Tywin hadn’t lost Joanna and Tyrion lost Tysha, they would be even more similar.  I always thought this was cleverly and very intentionally done by GRRM.

 

Anyhow, let’s go through the evidence:

 

1. Appearance: Pale blonde hair, mismatched eyes.

 

I don’t find these reasons compelling either way (i.e. pro or con).  Jon Snow looks nothing like a Targ, although maybe his intensely dark eyes could be purple if he dyes his hair.  Anyway, point is, that appearances are not a solid enough reason.

 

2. Birth: Born with a tail which was ordered lopped off. Some Targs born this way.

 

This is an exaggeration to explain his deformity.  He is a monster in everyone’s eyes.  This is a World where the Frey’s are claiming that the Starks turned into werewolves at the RW.  See the description in TWOIAF, it is pretty spot on.

 

3. No son of mine.

 

All of Tywin’s "no son of mine" claims and actions, including refusing to give Tyrion the Rock, all stem from the fact that Tyrion killed the love of Tywin’s life. He hates Tyrion.

 

I thought the all dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes was brilliant! It was not intended to be literal.  A really well written witticism.

 

4. Timeline and the Mad King raping Joanna.

 

This is plausible if the timelines add up, which it looks like they do for the most part.  I don’t think there is any direct evidence, however, to say that the Mad King raped her.

 

Also, if this is true, there NO way Tywin knew (invalidating evidence about him saying Tyrion is no son of his).  Given how much we know Tywin loved Joanna, he would have without a question done something if the Mad King raped his wife!!  Raping the wife of a Lord Paramount, let alone Tywin Lannister, is unthinkable.

 

Is it possible there was an affair, and the Joanna reciprocated? Meaning no rape?  Possible.  Without more information we cannot know this.  Pure conjecture.

 

5. Dreams, prophecies, and fascinations.

 

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.”

 

I don’t interpret this to mean he is a dragon.  He is a “small man”.  Again, this is part of his character.  He doesn’t need a dragon, valyrian steel sword, or an army. He has wit and intelligence to put him over the top.  I think this quote is evidence that Tyrion is not a Targ.

 

In terms of his dreams, he wasn’t raised fighting and riding.  He was raised reading and telling stories.  He also has a complex about his size.  He definitely dreams of being big and powerful! On the other hand, some of the dreams are pretty suggestive (three headed dragon dream for example). Honestly, I concede that this is evidence.  The dreams are what make this credible to discuss IMO.

 

6. Similarities to Dany, Jon, and Byrden Rivers.

 

There are a few, sure, but I’m unsure how that makes someone a Targ?  He may be AA or whoever, but that doesn’t mean he is a Targ. Maybe people can enlighten me on this.

 

In sum, I get that you have to take the evidence as a whole.  On balance, however, the evidence seems thin.  I concede the dreams are suggestive.

 

I know I didn’t go into too much detail, but that’s why we have comments.  I didn't post this in one of the Tyrion=Targ master threads because they are already really long.  A fresh post from a non-believers perspective seems fine to me.

 

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One of the things that points me to A+J=T is Tyrion's relationship with every Targaryen in the series.

He is the only one that has met every Targaryen (or supposed Targaryen) in ASoIaF; Aemon, Jon, Varys, Illyrio, fAegon and Dany (assuming based on tv show). He also has met Rhaegar and most likely Aerys (especially if A+J=T) Rhaella, Viserys and Rhaegar's children)

 

He has a good relationship with all of them.

Aemon calls him a giant of a man. Jon calls him friend. Varys saves him more that once. Illyrio sets him up him up with his master plan fAegon.

 

He is the center of the Targaryen wheel so far, every Targaryen has a positive relationship with him.

 

And of course this quote that sums up everything above

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

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^ do you interpret that quote to mean he is a dragon? I'm not saying thats wrong, but I took to mean the complete opposite. He is a small man among dragons, casting a big shadow.  Again, I think this means that despite his stature and physical issues, he still is able to stand in the midst of things.

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One of the things that points me to A+J=T is Tyrion's relationship with every Targaryen in the series.

He is the only one that has met every Targaryen (or supposed Targaryen) in ASoIaF; Aemon, Jon, Varys, Illyrio, fAegon and Dany (assuming based on tv show). He also has met Rhaegar and most likely Aerys (especially if A+J=T) Rhaella, Viserys and Rhaegar's children)

 

He has a good relationship with all of them.

Aemon calls him a giant of a man. Jon calls him friend. Varys saves him more that once. Illyrio sets him up him up with his master plan fAegon.

 

He is the center of the Targaryen wheel so far, every Targaryen has a positive relationship with him.

 

And of course this quote that sums up everything above

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

I don't see how this proves anything. Is there some magical force that attracts Targaryens to each other? As far as I know, there is no such thing.

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^ do you interpret that quote to mean he is a dragon? I'm not saying thats wrong, but I took to mean the complete opposite. He is a small man among dragons, casting a big shadow.  Again, I think this means that despite his stature and physical issues, he still is able to stand in the midst of things.

Moqorro sees Tyrion as "Tyrion" in the vision because he knows who he is. But he is casting a shadow of a dragon (meaning he is a dragon with out GRRM straight out saying he is a dragon)

Moqorro does not know who the "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark" are, so he sees them as actual dragons, though he clearly is talking about human Targaryens.

If he knew who Jon, or Daenerys or some of the others were, he would see their human forms rather than "dragons"

 

If he knew all of the characters (and GRRM wasn't worried about spoiling A+J=T) I think his vision would read like this:

Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Aemon and Jon, Daenerys and Aegon, Varys and Illyrio. And you. A small man, but a dragon as well, snarling in the midst of all"

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Moqorro sees Tyrion as "Tyrion" in the vision because he knows who he is. But he is casting a shadow of a dragon (meaning he is a dragon with out GRRM straight out saying he is a dragon)

Moqorro does not know who the "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark" are, so he sees them as actual dragons, though he clearly is talking about human Targaryens.

If he knew who Jon, or Daenerys or some of the others were, he would see their human forms rather than "dragons"

 

If he knew all of the characters (and GRRM wasn't worried about spoiling A+J=T) I think his vision would read like this:

Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Aemon and Jon, Daenerys and Aegon, Varys and Illyrio. And you. A small man, but a dragon as well, snarling in the midst of all"

 

It is an interesting interpretation. Why are the dark and bright dragons Varys and Illyrio?  Are you claiming they are also Targs?

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It is an interesting interpretation. Why are the dark and bright dragons Varys and Illyrio?  Are you claiming they are also Targs?

I think Illyrio is connected to the Blackfyres (married to one) and I think Varys is a decedent of Brightflame.

But I will say that the Bright and Dark are more crossing off other contenders till those 2 are left type deal.

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Some general points.

 

I like Tyrion’s character.  Definitely in my top 5. The main reason is that his only weapon is his knowledge, wit, and intellect- very rare in that world.  Him being a Targ, and presumably dragon-rider diminishes this, and fundamentally changes his character.  (btw by Targ I mean Targ blood- I know he’d be a bastard if true).

I'll copy-paste what I said on your first thread.

 

Tyrion survives mainly because he was raised in one of the most powerful households in Westeros.

As far as intellect goes, he seems smart in his chapters, but if you look at the greater picture he regularly makes grievous mistakes (Shae being the most obvious), and misses a lot of things. He often indulges in self-pity and spends way too much time and energy fighting Cersei instead of building strong -and lasting- alliances with important people. His greatest moves (the chain & the wildifre to defend KL, the arranged marriage(s)...) are not that original for someone who's been reading a lot of history books and is very well educated.

His wit gets him in more trouble than anything else.

All this to say he's not that subtle or brilliant. I give him more points for courage than intellect actually.

 

His "wit and intellect" are far from unique. Littlefinger and Varys seem way smarter than him imho (and they are both quite witty as well). Tywin is far better at the overall Game. Even Dany shows remarkable insight once in a while (whatever some may say). I'd say all in all Tyrion's on par with Cersei throughout the first three books (until she loses it, basically). He hasn't even really fared better than her so far.

 

What I'm trying to say is that Tyrion is not the "self-made man" you make him to be. As a "Lannister" he has been privileged all his life, and as Tywin's son had plenty of opportunities to rise high. Characters like Davos, Littlefinger and Varys are way closer to "self-made men" because they created their own opportunities. Even Sam and Jon got their positions in the NW through merit, though both still have their education to thank for that.

Tyrion... Well, so far he's still surviving thanks to his family name.

[spoiler]Even in the first chapters of WoW he still heavily depends on Lannister wealth to survive. Without it he'd still be a slave. [/spoiler]

 

As far as I'm concerned Tyrion being a Lannister or a Targ doesn't change anything about his merit or lack thereof.

 

I thought the all dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes was brilliant! It was not intended to be literal.  A really well written witticism.

It's also a line which would be deeply ironic if Tyrion turns out to be a bastard. One of several which heavily suggest that Tyrion may not be who he seems.

He is "a bastard," "a gargoyle," a monkey," "a giant," and even a "king."

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1) Appearance matter in terms of lineage. 

Gendry, Mya, Edric look like Robert. Ned knows Joff, Tommen and Myrcella aren't Roberts because they look NOTHING like Robert. 

Sansa looks like Cat, Arya is compared to Lyanna...

Florents have big ears...etc

 

2) see above...physical similarities matter. I don't recall Penny or any other dwarf being described as monstrous like Tyrion is...those Targ babies though, literally described as monster's.

 

3) Yes he hates Tyrion because he killed his wife and he is an embarrassment to House Lannister and Tywin hates being laughed at. Tywin withholding CR is partly cuz he hate's him but also because he can't prove that Tyrion IS NO SON OF HIS and had other's he could make his heir...if Joff lived CR probably would've been given to Tommen.

 

4) Consensual or rape doesn't effect the time line..we agree...

Tywin could know, men didn't start wars over a woman (no matter how highborn) being raped. Roberts Rebellion didn't start when Lyanna was kidnapped and supposedly raped... it started after Aery's demanded that Jon Arryn hand over Ned and Robert and Jon refused. 

Martell's didn't start a war even though Elia was raped and killed.

 

5) I take the quote to mean he is a Targ.

Tyrion influences which road people take...(f)Aegon was going to Dany, Tyrion put it into his head to go to Westeros, which he did. Cat was going home to Winterfell (even after spotting Tyrion she tried to stay hidden). Tyrion spotted her at the Inn at the Crossroads which then made Cat decide to take him prisoner and head to the Vale. 

He's going to tip the scales one way or another in the next Dance of the Dragons (interesting to note, Tyrion has one black and one green eye, last Dance was the Blacks vs the Greens).

 

6) So people who are Targs and Tyrion share similarties with them and you don't get how that means Tyrion may be a Targ? i think this is answered in 1 and 2. (Not trying to be rude.)

 

Also, Rippounet, I agree with everything you said!

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I just wanted to say two things, I guess I'll post them here rather than the other thread:

 

1. I agree the theory is terrible and is symptomatic of a fandom that now see's twists absolutely everywhere. Also thanks to R+L = J everybody seems to question everyone's parentage and general identity.

 

You raise good points as to why the theory doesn't hold water, but my main counter-argument against it is that it cheapens the narrative on so many levels. Tyrion being most like Tywin of all his children is the most delicious irony because of the treatement he gives him throughout his whole life, Tyrion being a Targ just ruins everything and allows him to ride off into the sunset on a Dragon (probably). The fact is, at least IMO, he is a Lannister and for him to be anything other than a Lannister is just downright silly.

 

 

2. Everyone seems to talk about how the Dragons need two other riders (three heads and all that), well you have Jon, possible strongest Warg Bran and (f)Aegon but another possiblility nobody seems to mention is Stannis. Correct me if I am wrong but Baratheons have Targ ancestry, so why not Stannis or heck even Gendry, Edric Storm?

 

 

Overall, of all the theories floating around, Tyrion being a Targ isn't just the one I like least, it would be the one that if true would constitute for me the first major jumping of the shark moment for the novels (if such a literay equivelent exists!).

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2. Everyone seems to talk about how the Dragons need two other riders (three heads and all that), well you have Jon, possible strongest Warg Bran and (f)Aegon but another possiblility nobody seems to mention is Stannis. Correct me if I am wrong but Baratheons have Targ ancestry, so why not Stannis or heck even Gendry, Edric Storm?

I agree. There are probably hundredths of dragon and dragonseeds descendants running around in Westeros and Essos. Even Ben Plumm has a good chance at being a dragon rider (the dark dragon?) and Tyrion is with him now.

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One of the things that points me to A+J=T is Tyrion's relationship with every Targaryen in the series.

He is the only one that has met every Targaryen (or supposed Targaryen) in ASoIaF; Aemon, Jon, Varys, Illyrio, fAegon and Dany (assuming based on tv show). He also has met Rhaegar and most likely Aerys (especially if A+J=T) Rhaella, Viserys and Rhaegar's children)

 

He has a good relationship with all of them.

Aemon calls him a giant of a man. Jon calls him friend. Varys saves him more that once. Illyrio sets him up him up with his master plan fAegon.

 

He is the center of the Targaryen wheel so far, every Targaryen has a positive relationship with him.

 

And of course this quote that sums up everything above

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

I suspect that he is indeed a Targaryen.  Though Rhaegar's son may be ahead of him in the succession, that vision would seem to indicate that the other Targaryens are going to support Tyrion and help put him on the throne.  He is the "center of the wheel", their wheel.  Laws of succession would put Prince Aegon ahead of him, but I do not think the rules of succession will be the determining factor here.  Like you said, Tyrion has met all of his kin (and we are making assumptions here that Varys and Jon are Targaryens too, and that Tyrion will eventually meet Dany) and made a good impression with all of them.  I suspect he will make a good impression with Dany. 

 

Even if Tyrion ends up being exactly who he is, the son of Tywin, doesn't mean that those Targaryens are not going to help put him on throne.  Either because they believe he is the best candidate for the job or because they don't want to do it themselves for a variety of reasons (like major obligations in the North, Slaver's Bay, Volantis, etc).

 

I think Tyrion will ride a dragon.  But he doesn't really need to as long as he has friends and allies who ride dragons. 

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You raise good points as to why the theory doesn't hold water, but my main counter-argument against it is that it cheapens the narrative on so many levels. Tyrion being most like Tywin of all his children is the most delicious irony because of the treatement he gives him throughout his whole life, Tyrion being a Targ just ruins everything and allows him to ride off into the sunset on a Dragon (probably).

I don't see why it's such a big deal if it turns out Tywin wasn't his biological father, because when Tyrion shot him, he was shooting the man he saw as his father anyway.

Generally thinking, Tywin will always be Tyrion's father, the man who raised and educated him. The irony lies in the fact that Tywin hated a child who was becoming like him. Whether Tyrion is his biological son or not doesn't change that at all.

 

No offense, but the "cheapen" argument is ridiculous. It's just a way for people to say they don't like the theory. I don't even understand what it means.

It's like if people started saying that Jon not being Ned's bastard "cheapened" his relationship with Catelyn. Nonsense.

 

2. Everyone seems to talk about how the Dragons need two other riders (three heads and all that), well you have Jon, possible strongest Warg Bran and (f)Aegon but another possiblility nobody seems to mention is Stannis. Correct me if I am wrong but Baratheons have Targ ancestry, so why not Stannis or heck even Gendry, Edric Storm?
Quentyn proved that you need more than a drop of dragon blood for the dragons to like you. Otherwise, half of the Westerosi nobility could try riding a dragon.
 
Ben Plumm is an interesting counter-example, but we don't know how much dragon blood he actually has. More than Gendry I believe, since Viserys Plumm was supposedly 100% Targ.
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OP, here's my two cents' worth.

 

The hints about Tyrion possibly being Aerys' son were placed there because Tyrion is going to ride a dragon and GRRM is going to have the other characters assume that means he's a Targaryen, when in reality he's 100% Lannister.

 

But you missed a few things in your original post.  Tyrion likes his meat burned.  He likes spicy food.  He has a fascination with dragons, even dreams about them.  And actually TWOIAF mentions that Joanna Lannister was one of many women dismissed from Queen Rhaella's service for fooling around with the king.  Joanna could have had an entirely consensual relationship with Aerys.

 

Further, TWOIAF also places Joanna in King's Landing--and thus within Aerys' reach--in the year prior to Tyrion's birth.  This is in stark contrast to the fact that Joanna had been living at Casterly Rock for three years before the twins were born.  

 

As to what blood is required to ride a dragon, the previous information we have is based on Targaryen propaganda.  Of course they wanted everyone to think that only Targs could ride dragons.  They were the only dragonriding family to survive the doom.  To their knowledge no one else COULD ride dragons.  But, Nettles tamed her dragon by feeding it sheep, not by any kind of magic.  Tyrion knows more about dragons than any living person, except maybe Daenerys.  He's read every book he could find on the subject, and with Lannister money at hand he could find more than most people could. It is by no means a stretch to think Tyrion could find a way to tame a dragon and get it to accept him, with or without any Targ blood.

Tyrion does not have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon, or to go through all kinds of interesting drama dealing with the idea that he might not be who he thinks he is, and also dealing with others suddenly thinking he's King Aerys' child.  There is richness in the possibility, even if it turns out that he truly is Tywin's son.

As to who would tell him, Barristan knows some of this, and Genna would likely supply the rest.  Or Gerion if he shows up.  Of course we also have Bloodraven and the weirwood archives--it's possible he'd have some insight into this identity problem.

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I agree. There are probably hundredths of dragon and dragonseeds descendants running around in Westeros and Essos. Even Ben Plumm has a good chance at being a dragon rider (the dark dragon?) and Tyrion is with him now.

And Shireen as well, provided she doesn't get burned first.  Hey, maybe she gets burned by an opposing dragon, instead of by Mel.

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I don't see why it's such a big deal if it turns out Tywin wasn't his biological father, because when Tyrion shot him, he was shooting the man he saw as his father anyway.

Generally thinking, Tywin will always be Tyrion's father, the man who raised and educated him. The irony lies in the fact that Tywin hated a child who was becoming like him. Whether Tyrion is his biological son or not doesn't change that at all.

 

No offense, but the "cheapen" argument is ridiculous. It's just a way for people to say they don't like the theory. I don't even understand what it means.

It's like if people started saying that Jon not being Ned's bastard "cheapened" his relationship with Catelyn. Nonsense.

 

Quentyn proved that you need more than a drop of dragon blood for the dragons to like you. Otherwise, half of the Westerosi nobility could try riding a dragon.
 
Ben Plumm is an interesting counter-example, but we don't know how much dragon blood he actually has. More than Gendry I believe, since Viserys Plumm was supposedly 100% Targ.

 

Agreed.  Changes, yes.  Cheapens, no.

 

Not necessarily.  He was planning to ride Viserion, but it wasn't Viserion who killed him.  Rhaegal might well have shot the flames at Quentyn because he was jealous and wanted Quent's attention.  We all know Drogon loves Dany but that didn't stop him from shooting flames in her direction.

 

BBP's Targ ancestors are actually further back than Gendry's, and don't forget that the founder of House Baratheon was rumored to be half-Targaryen himself.

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Not necessarily.  He was planning to ride Viserion, but it wasn't Viserion who killed him.  Rhaegal might well have shot the flames at Quentyn because he was jealous and wanted Quent's attention.  We all know Drogon loves Dany but that didn't stop him from shooting flames in her direction.

A good point.

 

Also, you're right to underline the fact that becoming a dragonrider is not all about blood.

Anyway, as far as we know, Dany is the only pure Targ around, and Martin said the three heads won't necessarily be Targaryens...

 

BBP's Targ ancestors are actually further back than Gendry's, and don't forget that the founder of House Baratheon was rumored to be half-Targaryen himself.

I'll be damned, but you're right, I had overlooked Rhaelle Targaryen. Hmmm...

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