The North Forgets Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 They drilled R+L=J into our heads in 504. There were 3 different scenes addressing the characters involved in that episode. I'm not sure exactly what order they were in, but there was Selyse talking to Stannis about Jon and she stated he was the son of a whore basically and Stannis said he didn't buy it cause that wasn't Ned Stark's way. Then almost immediately after in the episode there was the crypt scene that everyone is discussing here where they focused on Lyanna. And then there was the scene with Dany and Barristan talking about about how good of a guy Rhaegar was which completely dispels the earlier thought that he raped and murdered Lyanna. There would be no point of really putting these scenes in the episode talking about these characters not in the show unless it had some foreshadowing meaning. These clues were placed so perfectly for a reason and brought up so many times that my show watching friend who didn't know about R+L=J got incredibly close to piecing it together during the episode. I eventually told them about it and they said "Oh that makes sense, I think I believe that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 In Season 4 they also had Oberyn tell Tyrion that Rhaegar "left" Elia for another woman. The clues have been there almost every season. the viewers that pay attention to them have noticed. The unsullied viewers over on PTV were discussing Jon's parentage at length after the episodes this year that focued on R&L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 In Season 4 they also had Oberyn tell Tyrion that Rhaegar "left" Elia for another woman. The clues have been there almost every season. the viewers that pay attention to them have noticed. The unsullied viewers over on PTV were discussing Jon's parentage at length after the episodes this year that focued on R&L. This. Viewers, who actually pay attention to all the nuances and every mention of Jon's mother, Rhaegar, Lyanna and any number of the other off handed comments; can easily pick up on it. I have four coworkers, you picked up that Jon might not be Ned's son. My Aunt and Uncle, who are in their late 60's and not internet savy, both guessed who his parents are. Anyone who says that there are not enough clues pointing to it, are flat out wrong. In addition, if there are those who say viewers won't be able to suspect something or outright figure things out for themselves....really aren't giving other people, enough credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 No it's not the reason they haven't pushed the reveal is so that the viewers didn't work it out during the first damn book like the readers did. My wife guest it in the first season, between Robert putting the feather in her hands, and Ned's "you may not have my name; but you have my blood you are a Stark, we'll talk about your mother". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilli Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The tv-show has 2 problems: - In the books we can read about Ned's dreams/thoughts, but that's not possible on tv. And he has no-one he can speak to who knows the truth. - Season 1 was also a bit early to do the reveal. After season 1 there hasn't been any character in the show that really knows the truth. That might change in season 6 with Bran/possible Benjen return/possible Howland Reed showing himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 LF's reaction was neutral. Show LF is one of my fav characters and I was watching the scene again to see the little knowing smirk, but no his face is almost expressionless, it portends nothing as LF is never Mr subtle, book readers are putting their own spin on it. Barristan talking about Rhaegar could have been just a way for he and Dany to bond so his death would be more tragic, a trick DD have pulled before with Shireen. Yes while book readers and hardcore watchers may have picked up on the clues or at least noted them, the average viewer would not and that is what is paramount in the minds of writers not what book readers think who I'm sure DD pretty much hate now after all the crap they give them on the forums now, and I wouldn't be surprised frankly if these R+L clues have been dropped in suddenly just to fuck with the forums. And remember a test audience for episode 1 were mostly confused as to why Jaime pushed Brandon out of the window as they did not realise they were brother and sister. The average viewer is just not that attentive to a TV show. Now, I am not saying that R+L is unlikely, it still is likely, but the way DD have written the seasons mean that it is still possible it is all trolling and a red herring and he is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Friendzoned Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 LF's reaction was neutral. Show LF is one of my fav characters and I was watching the scene again to see the little knowing smirk, but no his face is almost expressionless, it portends nothing as LF is never Mr subtle, book readers are putting their own spin on it. Barristan talking about Rhaegar could have been just a way for he and Dany to bond so his death would be more tragic, a trick DD have pulled before with Shireen. Yes while book readers and hardcore watchers may have picked up on the clues or at least noted them, the average viewer would not and that is what is paramount in the minds of writers not what book readers think who I'm sure DD pretty much hate now after all the crap they give them on the forums now, and I wouldn't be surprised frankly if these R+L clues have been dropped in suddenly just to fuck with the forums. And remember a test audience for episode 1 were mostly confused as to why Jaime pushed Brandon out of the window as they did not realise they were brother and sister. The average viewer is pretty slow. Now, I am not saying that R+L is unlikely, it still is likely, but the way DD have written the seasons mean that it is still possible it is all trolling and a red herring and he is dead. Whether R+L=J is true or not, Jon's not dead. 1) Melisandre is there. Red priests can resurrect. 2) AA prophecy points to Jon or Dany (and possibly Jorah) 3) "Ghost" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Possibly, but everyone and his mother thinks this now so the real surprise twist, which we all know DD love so much, is for him to be dead and just a dead bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spilt Pea Soup Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's the height of ridiculousness to think that the show and books would diverge on this. I do not put any credit toward X, which is obviously true in both books and show, will be false because D&D are trolls. Just argument ad absurdio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfellbeyondthewall Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The tv-show has 2 problems: - In the books we can read about Ned's dreams/thoughts, but that's not possible on tv. And he has no-one he can speak to who knows the truth. - Season 1 was also a bit early to do the reveal. After season 1 there hasn't been any character in the show that really knows the truth. That might change in season 6 with Bran/possible Benjen return/possible Howland Reed showing himself. Agreed, the TV show's main problem is to depict the POV's inner monologues. This makes it a lot harder to plant hints and establish the idea of RLJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Varys Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I was surprised to read that anyone would not already question his parentage. Everyone I run into brings it up and from the large group I know watching in the beginning it was topic du jour. But, maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 In the House of Undying we could have at least seen Rhaegar, TV is a visual medium and an audience needs to see characters to feel them as this is not a book with internal thoughts. This should have been shown if R+L was later to be revealed. G of T is not Columbo, there is absolutely no need to cover up every single possible clue so no one could ever guess. It is quite the opposite. The skill is to drop a few clues here and there so to the average viewer when the big reveal comes it is surprising but believable and thus impactful. So unless we have big and clumsy flashback scenes at the start of 6 which sadly we will have to now, then Jon suddenly being a Targaryen will seem forced and only for shock value, just like Sansa's rape is to book readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 LF's reaction was neutral. Show LF is one of my fav characters and I was watching the scene again to see the little knowing smirk, but no his face is almost expressionless, it portends nothing as LF is never Mr subtle, book readers are putting their own spin on it. <snip> No, the look is there, plain for anyone to see. It's when Sansa tells LF, 'Yes, he chose her. And then he kidnapped her and raped her'. Here's a clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'm disappointed they never used the "There was a melancholy to Rhaegar, a sense... of doom" quote. At the moment he comes across as a jolly fellow, not a brooding guy like his son. I really hope they highlight that similarity between Jon and Rhaegar, especially because Kit Harrington got the role of Jon because he looked 'sad enough to play Jon Snow.' :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Friendzoned Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 No, the look is there, plain for anyone to see. It's when Sansa tells LF, 'Yes, he chose her. And then he kidnapped her and raped her'. Here's a clip. Watching that over a couple times, it's apparent to me that LF knows something that few people know. It's apparent that something's mysterious and has been kept secret about R and L for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLR Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 In the House of Undying we could have at least seen Rhaegar, TV is a visual medium and an audience needs to see characters to feel them as this is not a book with internal thoughts. This should have been shown if R+L was later to be revealed. G of T is not Columbo, there is absolutely no need to cover up every single possible clue so no one could ever guess. It is quite the opposite. The skill is to drop a few clues here and there so to the average viewer when the big reveal comes it is surprising but believable and thus impactful. So unless we have big and clumsy flashback scenes at the start of 6 which sadly we will have to now, then Jon suddenly being a Targaryen will seem forced and only for shock value, just like Sansa's rape is to book readers. Yes, instead we saw the throne room covered in snow. It's called visual impact. Showing Rhaeger in Dany's vision in HotU wouldn't make sense to the viewer because they'd wonder who the eff was this guy and the eff is he talking about? You're operating on an assumption that all show watchers are dumb. You'd be surprise how many people are questioning Jon's parentage on the show without reading the books. In fact, a lot of people have figured it out or are close to figuring it out. Sure, most of them think Robert is Jon's father or that he may not be a Targaryan because he burnt his hand, but most of them suspect that Jon isn't Ned. Once you have that seed planted, it can be easy for viewers to figure stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLR Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 In Dany's vision in the HoTU in the show, when she entered the throne room, directly in front of her, above the throne was a stained glass with a blue rose. Watch the videos on YT, and it's there. These hints won't be obvious until R+L=J is revealed and then everyone who's seen it would go, "Ohhhhhhh, so that's what it meant" or something like that. My point is, the show don't have to spell it out for viewers, they can leave clues here and there that looks entirely random but will make sense once the reveal is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Yes, instead we saw the throne room covered in snow. It's called visual impact. Showing Rhaeger in Dany's vision in HotU wouldn't make sense to the viewer because they'd wonder who the eff was this guy and the eff is he talking about? You're operating on an assumption that all show watchers are dumb. You'd be surprise how many people are questioning Jon's parentage on the show without reading the books. In fact, a lot of people have figured it out or are close to figuring it out. Sure, most of them think Robert is Jon's father or that he may not be a Targaryan because he burnt his hand, but most of them suspect that Jon isn't Ned. Once you have that seed planted, it can be easy for viewers to figure stuff out. No, they would have an idea of who he was because of Robert's great line, In my dreams I kill him every night. It is good to see show watchers get defended here, as the show takes so much crap nowadays, but I am talking of the average viewer who enjoys the show but is not watching that attentively with checks to their iphone etc while the episodes are showing. As I said before if you did a poll of a hundred viewers who have never watched an episode twice, at least one third would not remember who exactly Renly was and more than half who Gendry was/is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 In Dany's vision in the HoTU in the show, when she entered the throne room, directly in front of her, above the throne was a stained glass with a blue rose. Watch the videos on YT, and it's there. These hints won't be obvious until R+L=J is revealed and then everyone who's seen it would go, "Ohhhhhhh, so that's what it meant" or something like that. My point is, the show don't have to spell it out for viewers, they can leave clues here and there that looks entirely random but will make sense once the reveal is done. Yes exactly, the average viewer can't remember who exactly Gendry was but this blue Rose they will remember instantly. Haha. You are talking about book and hardcore show watchers. I am not, and nor are HBO or DD, they are thinking of the average viewer when they write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorkalba Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 LF's reaction was neutral. Show LF is one of my fav characters and I was watching the scene again to see the little knowing smirk, but no his face is almost expressionless, it portends nothing as LF is never Mr subtle, book readers are putting their own spin on it. He may be one of your favourite characters, but you obviously don't know the character well if you can't read anything from his reaction to what Sansa said. The entire scene is contrived to be a R+L=J hint. I would bet every last penny I own that LF knows or at least strongly suspects that Jon is Rhaegar's son and that Lyanna wasn't raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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