A long-winded explanation of why I don't like Gandalf

[Dragonmag170]

So I wrote this super long explanation to settle an argument about why I dislike Gandalf as a character in LOTR and I figured you guys would enjoy reading it. 

 

I am going to focus mostly on the LOTR trilogy (books) and not The Hobbit- it's plenty of material. He acts pretty much the same in the Hobbit with one or two discrepancies I will mention later. I may touch on stuff from the Silmarilion.

Starting in book 1 Gandalf is built as a reclusive, magical character. We know from the general lore that he is a Maiar spirit sent to help prepare the world for Sauron's inevitable return.

 

While he generally fails in that mission, it isn't really his fault- the elves are losing their power and are becoming more and more reclusive, the dwarves are severing contact with the outside world, and men are becoming the dominant race. And while men revere Gandalf and see his wisdom, they mostly ignore his warnings as foolish. The dark lord is dead, and very few men will believe he is returning.

 

Here we encounter my first major problem with Gandalf: he never really establishes why he should be trusted by the world of men at all. The elves revere him because, as they find out long after his arrival in middle earth, he is one of the Maiar, and the elves revere the great spirits. He also helps the elves drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur twice. He actually directly intervenes with the elves many times, far more than he does with any other race.

 

But within the text, I have never seen evidence of why he expected the trust and respect of men- he simply did. He assumed power over them simply because of his existence. He is very arrogant.

 

When he does help races other than the elves, he does so indirectly. He abandoned Thorin's company to go fight Sauron again. In fact, I could spend a long time derailing why he chose to send Throin on that mission at all, at that exact time, knowing that Sauron's power was growing directly in their path. But that's a whole other discussion.

 

In the world of men, he did almost nothing. He established himself as a wise man, but nothing more- he didn't directly intervene for anything. Starting in 2063, the following events happened (taken from the appendicies):

2063 Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur [to help drive Sauron out for the first time].

2463: White council formed, ring found by Smeagol.

2475: Osgiliath abandoned and ruined by agents of the Witch King.

2570 Dragons reappear in the north and harass the Dwarves.

2740: Orcs renew invasion of Eriador.

2758: Rohan overrun, corsairs attack Gondor, Great suffering and loss of life in Eriador and Rohan. Gandalf comes to the aid of the Shire-folk.

 

These events are some of the major ones in a long, long line of events between the founding of the White Council and the events of The Hobbit. In all of them Gandalf is mentioned once- helping the hobbits repel an orc invasion that had started 18 years beforehand. He didn't help the Rohirrim when they were completely overrun in an invasion that lasted years. He didn't help Gondor fight at Osgiliath- they lost that battle, and the city was wrecked and turned into the ruin it was during the time of the fellowship.

 

At this point he could easily have gained many people's trust by being a very productive part of each of these conflict. He could have made huge leaps in his mission- he could have helped Gondor push back an orc horde, saving their capitol city and helping them retrain and recruit for their military in the years to come. He could have helped the Rohirrim push back an invasion, accomplishing the same goal. He could have joined the fight against the invasion of Eriador years before he chose to. But he did not. 

 

He could have put pressure on the elves to assist the dwarves with the re-emerging dragons, thus helping to span what was at the time a long standing feud between the two races. He could have asked the elves, alternatively, to help men with the multiple orc invasions- Sauron was being constantly monitored in Dol Guldur and the Elves were doing nothing in the intervening period. He had any number of opportunities to promote inter-racial unity, which would have provided a united front against Sauron when he inevitably returned. He did not. In fact, it isn't really clear what he did during this time- based on the appendices, and Tolkien Gateway, he simply wandered. If he had done any of the things outlined above, he could have brought several nations together- he could have convinced the Rohirrim to help Gondor when Osgiliath was under siege, forging a powerful alliance between the two nations.

 

He also had an immense amount of time to research the ring. In 3017 he goes to Minas Tirith and finally researches the recent history of the ring- but Bilbo's feast was in 3001. 17 years after he watched Bilbo use a ring of power and began to suspect it's power, he decided to go research the ring. But Bilbo returned to the Shire after the battle of the five armies in 2942.

 

As Gandalf tells Frodo, he had suspected what the ring was "just before the battle of the five armies." So he had suspected that Bilbo's ring was the ring for over 80 years before he went to research it. He did not know where it had last been seen until 2953, when Saruman lied that it passed down the Anduin to the sea- meaning it was last seen in the Anduin river. Gandalf was already wary of Saruman, and knew that he was likely lying about the location of the ring- he should have begun a very strong search for it then, researching it as much as he could so he could identify it when found. So far as I can find, he never did this.

 

He clearly had the connections in Gondor to access their most important archives- although why he would is a mystery. He also undoubtedly had heard Elrond's story, or at the very least knew that he was at the last battle against Sauron and knew what had happened to the ring. He could have spoken with Elrond at any time- of all the elves in middle earth, he knew that Elrond had fought Sauron before and would never join him, and could therefore be trusted. He could have asked him small questions, lying and telling Elrond he was still searching for the ring and wanted to try to pinpoint its last known location. He did none of these things. In fact, he could have asked a lot of questions of a lot of people and made it look like he had no idea where the ring was- he could have easily framed it as a desire to carry out his mission and find the weapon of the enemy to use against the enemy.

 

During the Fellowship he goes to Saruman for help and is captured. He already had suspicions about Saruman- he mentions them occasionally during the books. Why he went first to Saruman and not Elrond- who was closer by far and would have been able to easily identify the ring- is never made clear. But this action gets him captured.

 

At the council of Elrond we do see his powerful wisdom- he is quite wise and comes up with a very good course of action. Now we are into the quest for the fellowship, and it looks like he may actually change for the better- taking direct action to end the war he was sent to prepare for.

 

But when confronted with a balrog he stands to fight instead of retreating with the fellowship. Now, I know this is a somewhat weak argument, but hear me out. Gandalf knows that the exit of Moria the fellowship is moving to is right at Lothlorien- in fact it appears that the elves in Lothlorien are expecting him- (see the Fly, you Fools theory). It is also well established at this point that he has a close relationship with Galadriel- she was a member of the White Council, and he and Elrond trust her completely. She is the leader of the largest group of elves remaining in Middle Earth, and has close ties to the elves in nearby Mirkwood as well.

 

He could have fled the balrog with the fellowship and gone to Lothlorien- calling in a favor with the elves for his assistance in removing Sauron from Dol guldur. In his retreat he could have damaged the bridge so it would collapse under the balrog, preventing its escape- he was clearly capable of doing so. He could have enlisted the help of the elves fighting the balrog- the elves likely would have been able to deal with the balrog with a reasonable amount of casualties, especilly with Galadriel and her right of power. This would have left Gandalf alive to help the fellowship reach Mordor united. The fellowship would never have broken. They could have slipped into Mordor behind the army marching to Minas Tirith and destroyed the ring without too much trouble. I have no doubt that Gandalf had at least some idea of how to get into Mordor undetected (I will get to this later). With the ring destroyed he could have marched with the fellowship to Gondor, assisting in a victory at Minas Tirith. The army would have been severely weakened with the defeat of its master- it is likely the army may have been crippled by the breakup of the clouds protecting them from the sun.

 

He did none of this. He fought the balrog, won, and died. He returned as Gandalf the White, and actually was able to do some good- his greatest act was, perhaps, gathering the Rohirrim to save Helms Deep. He saved Theoden from Saruman and in so doing gained the trust of the Rohirrim. This showed foresight and planning that he had never really shown before. He was actually responsible for sending Theoden and his men to HD- the entire plan to defeat Saruman’s army was his. He also convinced Theoden to march to Minas Tirith and help Gondor.

 

But after that his arrogance came back out when he reached Gondor. He tried to order the Steward of Gondor to light the beacons- he was not requesting the action. And Denethor saw right through it- he refused to do so. One of Denethor’s biggest weaknesses was pride- and Gandalf’s orders pricked it.

 

While he did a lot to help during the battle at Minas Tirith, the real reason the battle was won was Aragorn’s intervention- killing the corsairs with the army of the dead and ambushing the orcs when they expected reinforcements. That plan was set in motion by Elrond, who sent the rangers to Aragorn along with his sons.

 

In a nutshell, my biggest problem with Gandalf is this: He is a very inconsistent character. He goes from doing nothing to getting involved to getting incredibly involved. He goes from making really bad decisions in the first book to making mostly good ones in the second and then slides back into foolishness in the third. He uses magic in some situations (I won’t even get into this part) and not in others with no clear reasoning behind his decisions. He ultimately failed in his mission to prepare the world for Sauron- when Sauron came the world was not at all prepared, and would have been completely destroyed had Sauron found the ring. He should have been preparing the peoples of the world to fight a fully returned, ring-wielding Sauron. Instead he waited, procrastinated, and left the world in a very sorry state on the cusp of war with Sauron.

 

Now, I know there were other wizards, and that they seemingly were useless compared to Gandalf. But I disagree with this assertion. I think the other wizards actually all did their jobs- we never really learn the individual missions of the others. We only know Gandalf's mission, and that all of them were involved in some way with preparing the world.

 

Gandalf was supposed to help the free people of Middle Earth prepare to fight Sauron by ensuring they were unified and as powerful as they could be. He was supposed to be the hope of the people.

 

The blue wizards went east- the five wizards knew that people existed east and south of Mordor, and that one man could not cover them all. So the two blue wizards (who are often believed to be somehow intertwined- two bodies of the same entity) went off east to unite those tribes. I think they actually succeeded over hundreds of years, but were killed- this allowed Sauron to take control of the newly united Haradrim and Easterlings by corrupting their leaders. They were likely killed by Sauron's forces in order to take control of the men east of Mordor.

 

Radagast's goal was to prepare the nature of Middle Earth for the coming war and to try to gain the assistance of the creatures of the world. I think he spent years slowly warming the ents up to the idea of fighting Sauron, and that the Council of the Ents in book 2 was actually the last in a long, long series of councils on the topic- that is why they decided as quickly as they did. The Entmoot only took 3 days- which, for ents, is incredibly fast. I believe that Radagast had gently implanted the idea that they would need to fight Sauron for years, and the ents had agreed to join the war when Radagast called on them. The entmoot was not deciding whether or not to join the war- I think it was deciding when to join the war. I think he may also be the reason for the alliance of the Eagles and the wizards- he did something to convince them to help. He showed up where nature was in danger, and nature was his ally. 

 

Saruman was intended to bring knowledge to the free peoples to aid them in the fight against Sauron. He was basically a walking library- he had lots of information, lots of wisdom, but no guidance because he was intended to lead the wizards. He was made the head of the white council because Gandalf felt that Saruman, who spent most of his time in Orthanc reading and gathering knowledge as he was asked- would be the person among the councilors (I believe it was Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Saruman)with adequate time to lead the efforts of the white council in opposing Sauron. He also acknowledged that Saruman had a palantir, which would allow him to communicate with all of the councilors at will, was best prepared to call them together quickly when not prepared.

 

SarumanS flaw, however, was that he only led the wizards. He grew even more arrogant than Gandalf ever could have- he had been sent in order to gain knowledge and lead the most powerful beings in Middle Earth in a world-saving mission. He rarely interacted with the free peoples of middle earth outside of the council- he became very reclusive, reading histories and learning as much as he could about his enemy but nothing about his allies. He never learned the practical knowledge about humans that Gandalf gained- he never learned that the people he was trying to save were worth it. He learned everything known about Sauron and believed that the war could not be won- he felt that even without the ring Sauron was easily capable of winning with no problems at all. He was incredibly wise, but that wisdom cut him- his wisdom led him astray. He never gained the knowledge they really needed, he learned the information he thought they wanted. And it made him question the mission, because he saw an unbeatable foe.

 

It's also rather important to remember that when Gandalf was sent back, he was sent back as Gandalf the white- intended to be a replacement for Saruman. He was likely sent back even more powerful and with the ability to fight Saruman. He knew that defeating Saruman would allow him to unite Rohan and Gondor.

 

But, let’s look at a scenario: Gandalf does as I outlined in my last posts and does not fight the balrog. He survives Moria and calls in a favor with the elves to help kill the balrog (or ignores it- I don’t think it could have escaped Moria and could have been dealt with later). He never becomes Gandalf the White because he never needs to- his job is done, because the free people are all interconnected and ready and willing to help one another in the coming war. The fellowship would not have broken- not by accident, anyway. Gandalf would have come up with a more solid plan with Celeborn and Galadriel, and would have sent the members of the Fellowship on different errands around Middle Earth to help with preparation while keeping the Hobbits close to protect the ring. Here’s what could have happened.

 

First, Gandalf should have brought Rohan and Gondor together as a united front hundreds of years before he did. That alliance should have been so tight and long standing that the Gondorians wouldn't hesitate to call to Rohirrim and vice versa and that neither side would hesitate to come to each other's aid when called unless they literally could not spare the soldiers. There were multiple perfect opportunities for this alliance to be forged, and none of them were met- the alliance that existed in the books was so tenuous Denethor wasn’t willing to bother asking for help, and Theoden would not have helped Gondor if not for Gandalf's urging. He also should have been helping to solidify an alliance between both Rohan, Gondor and the remaining elves, who would have been able to help both sides in a bind.

 

Say that alliance was created and the situation in Rohan developed as it did in the books, but an elven advisor was at Theoden's side by long-standing agreement between Rohan and Lorien. The elf would have immediately known something was wrong, and Theoden may never have been controlled by Saruman. If he was, an elf could have healed him and sent for help from Galadriel, pulling the people of Rohan to Helms Deep to protect them from Saruman's armies while the Elven army marched to their aide. The united Rohirrim and Elves wouldn't have needed the ents to win the battle at Helms Deep- they would have crushed Saruman’s remaining forces. Additionally, because the elf advisor would have seen through Saruman’s plan in the first place the people of Rohan would have been much more numerous and well prepared when they went to Helm’s Deep for defence. After the battle, the united Rohirrim and Elves would not have needed the ents to stop Saruman altogether- with Galadriel and Celeborn to confront Saruman, they could have easily overpowered the remaining forces at Isengard while they were weakened from a defeat at helms deep and crushed Saruman and what remained of his forces, which were severely weakened after the battle at Helms Deep. What if the ents had joined AFTER Isengard fell at the request of Radagast?

 

In the meantime, Gandalf could have sent Aragorn to get the army of the dead and claim his throne- he was likely considering this from book one, and with assurances from Gandalf for Frodo's safety and Elrond sending the rangers south to find him would have convinced him to take the mountain road. In this scenario, Boromir never dies in this scenario because the fellowship doesn’t break up in anger but in order to execute a plan to destroy the ring. Boromir goes with Gandalf and the hobbits to Gondor. This puts Gandalf in Gondor far earlier than he was in the books, and allows him to take command throughout the entire conflict- he likely could have stopped the Corsairs in the south while still holding Osgiliath, pulled all of the southern lords together, and had all of Gondor’s soldiers in Minas Tirith for an extended siege. Boromir came with him in this scenario, so he would have much more credibility with Denethor, and would likely have had no problems taking command of the armies of Gondor. Additionally, Boromir would have known who Aragorn was and what he was doing- he would have been able to convince his father to accept his new found friend as the King. Faramir never "dies" in this scenario either- the retreat from Osgiliath is controlled and efficient, and has far fewer casualties. Morale in Minas Tirith is much higher with Boromir present. And the transition from Stewards to Aragorn goes much more smoothly because of the friendship between Boromir and Aragorn. This strategy- pulling all of Gondor’s soldiers together with high morale in Minas Tirith and waiting out an extended siege- would allow time for any conflict in Rohan to end, and for the united Rohirrim and Elves to march to Minas Tirith. Denethor does not hesitate to light the beacons when the time comes, and does not need to worry about the Rohirrim not showing up. With the corsairs defeated and the Elves riding with Rohan, as well as the large amount of extra troops Gandalf could have brought from the south, the battle at Minas Tirith would have been a must more solid victory. The Free Peoples would have come out much better, with far fewer casualties.

 

We haven’t even added the dwarves in yet- there were a quite large number of them in Ered Luin and in the Iron Hills who could have been called early in the war and arrived in time to march with the Elves and Rohan to aid Gondor. The dwarves in Ered Luin had nothing to fight- they stayed out of the entire war, in the books, and did essentially nothing. But Gandalf had several opportunities over his 1500+years on middle earth to get the Dwarves invested in the fight against Sauron. He could have spent a good bit of time bridging the divide between the dwarves and the elves, helping to unite the two races. 

 

In all of this Frodo and Sam could be in Gondor, where they would be protected by Gandalf and all of the armies of Gondor. With Gandalf’s help Boromir would realize the destructive nature of the ring and would have encouraged his father (along with his brother) not to try to use it. It would have remained safe behind huge armies. Alternatively, he leaves Frodo and Sam in Lorien and lets Galadriel and Celeborn look after them.

 

The march to the black gate could, in this scenario, have happened with the combined might of the Elves, Rohan, Gondor, and the Dwarves. If the alliances were solidified properly, the attack at the Black Gate would also have incorporated the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Dale- If Gandalf had worked to remove the animosity between the Elves and the Dwarves (not to mention if he hadn't abandoned Thorin's company in Mirkwood and had stopped the elves from imprisoning them) the Elves of Mirkwood could have helped the Dwarves and Dale while the Elves of Lorien and the Elves of Rivendell helped Rohan. Legolas and Gimli were already becoming friends by the time the fellowship broke- they could have either gone with Aragorn (more likely) or been sent to bridge the gap between the Elves of Mirkwood and the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain.

 

So the battle at the Black Gate would have included Rohan, Gondor, Dale, Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, Dwarves of the Iron Hills, Dwarves of Ered Luin, all of the Elven forces remaining in Middle Earth, and Aragorn with the Army of the Dead. After the major defeat at Minas Tirith Sauron’s forces wouldn’t have been nearly prepared for a force this powerful- they would have been crushed. Frodo and Sam could then simply walk into Mordor, walk up to Mount Doom, and destroy the ring Right. In. Sauron’s. Face.

 

Or, alternatively, the eagles could show up to the battle and carry Frodo to the mountain to destroy the ring that way.

Either way, the free peoples stand united, the ring is destroyed, and everyone wins with far fewer casualties than before. The problems after the books- roving bands of orcs all over the world, Saruman in the Shire, etc- would never occur, or would be much less destructive- Galadriel would never allow Saruman to escape and the larger armies united at the Black Gate and Minas Morgul would have killed far more Orcs.

 

All of that is assuming Gandalf had done his job properly over even just a 500 year period. If he had put more energy into ensuring the alliances of Men, Elves, and Dwarves were stronger the world would have been much more prepared than it was when Sauron returned. But he didn’t do any of this. He spent most of his times with the Elves and Hobbits, and didn’t do nearly the amount of diplomatic work he needed to. I actually think that if Gandalf had done his job the Battle of the Five Armies in The Hobbit shouldn’t have happened at all- the elves should have begrudgingly (or maybe even happily) helped the dwarves on their mission. The Dwarves would have paid the elves back the debts of their old king because they helped them rather than imprisoned them. The Elves of Mirkwood and the Men of Dale would have at least been diplomatically friendly with one another- after Smaug destroyed Erebor they could have continued to openly trade at Gandalf’s encouragement. This, coupled with the elves helping Thorin’s company, would mean that the men of Dale woyuld also be paid back immediately- and when the goblins showed up they would have been an unquestionably united front. The alliance between Dale and the new Erebor would have been even stronger, and would have then included Mirkwood.

 

This is why I don’t like Gandalf. Yes, he had a lot of work to do, but he also literally had over a thousand years to get it done. In those thousand years so much happened to all of the free peoples- things which they faced alone rather than united.And he seemingly did nothing. He was just kind of... there. But he gets tons and tons of credit for being so "helpful" during the War of the Ring. 

 

As requested: tl;dr Gandalf spends his 1500+ years on middle earth doing essentially nothing. His mission is to prepare the free peoples for Sauron's return, and when Sauron returns the free peoples are divided, infighting, and far, far from prepared.

[MisterOJ]

What the hell?

 

No tl;dr version? 

[scortius the charioteer]

thesis much?

[Darth Richard II]

But...gandalf is my anti drug!

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

It's a fair question though. What does Gandalf do with all that spare time?

 

 

Incidentally I read LotR again recently and discovered that "Gandalf" should be pronounced "Gandalv". Who knew?

[Wise Fool]

I read all of this.

 

That was a thing that happened.

[HexMachina]

What the hell?

 

No tl;dr version? 

Well a huge chunk of that post is "Well if Gandalf did xyz, this would result in abc, which would then enable Gandalf to do lmnop resulting in def." So yeah, um...

[Darth Richard II]

Just skimming looks like someone only saw the films.

[Ninefingers]

What the hell?

 

No tl;dr version? 

 

My tl;dr version is that he's a major character in an overrated series of books. 

[Arakan]

 
My tl;dr version is that he's a major character in an overrated series of books. 

Who cares for your opinion?
Don't like it? Fine, why bother to write at all? Juvenile provocation.

[Dragonmag170]

Just skimming looks like someone only saw the films.

 

Erm... I've read the books multiple times, quote directly from them multiple times, and dig deep into the appendicies...

[Frey Pie]

Gandalf didn't want to know about the ring of power. He wasn't interested in it. Saruman was the man for ring lore and Gandalf trusted him completely as his peer. Gandalf was interested in hearts and mind and the study of the people of middle earth. Keep in mind that he was charged not to lead people through force even if be could. He was there to influence them only although I agree that it is odd that there are periods where Gandalf doesn't seem to be doing much but who knows what he could have been doing? Out in the east perhaps?

Sorry if you had addressed that...could only read so much

Also it's interesting to see what the other wizards do. To some extent they all get too wrapped up in their old lives as Maiar. Radagast spends all his time in nature. Saruman sees the rings of power as tools and becomes obsessed with his own prowess. Gandalf loved to spend times with the elves in Valinor iirc. It's the same in middle earth. I have a feeling he got too wrapped up in this often and spent too much time remembering Valinor in the somewhat reminiscent Rivendell and Lothlorien. It's probably tough going from the majesty and pleasures of heaven to middle earth

[karaddin]

Well a huge chunk of that post is "Well if Gandalf did xyz, this would result in abc, which would then enable Gandalf to do lmnop resulting in def." So yeah, um...

If he'd done xyz then Bilbo would never have found the ring, and the humans wouldn't abide by human nature. It's as useful as an asoif hypothetical "what if Ned wasn't an honourbound fool?" Then it wouldn't be the story the author wanted to tell.

[Mars447]

OP, have you ever read The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie?

[Darth Richard II]

Who cares for your opinion?
Don't like it? Fine, why bother to write at all? Juvenile provocation.

You must be new here.

[Dragonmag170]

Gandalf didn't want to know about the ring of power. He wasn't interested in it. Saruman was the man for ring lore and Gandalf trusted him completely as his peer. Gandalf was interested in hearts and mind and the study of the people of middle earth. Keep in mind that he was charged not to lead people through force even if be could. He was there to influence them only although I agree that it is odd that there are periods where Gandalf doesn't seem to be doing much but who knows what he could have been doing? Out in the east perhaps?

Sorry if you had addressed that...could only read so much

Also it's interesting to see what the other wizards do. To some extent they all get too wrapped up in their old lives as Maiar. Radagast spends all his time in nature. Saruman sees the rings of power as tools and becomes obsessed with his own prowess. Gandalf loved to spend times with the elves in Valinor iirc. It's the same in middle earth. I have a feeling he got too wrapped up in this often and spent too much time remembering Valinor in the somewhat reminiscent Rivendell and Lothlorien. It's probably tough going from the majesty and pleasures of heaven to middle earth

 

Haha I actually talk about most of this toward the middleish. I'll recap.

 

My thoughts on the 5 wizards is that each of them was given a mission which coincided with their pasts. Radagast was supposed to prepare nature for the coming storm- that meant he would spend most of his time with nature. He likely befriended the ents. He worked to restore nature where it had been previously destroyed.

 

The blue wizards went east- we know this. I think they were tasked with uniting the eastern tribes. It's not too crazy to think that Gandalf went to check up on them at some point, but given the 1500 years he had to do his own task it seems kind crazy to me to think he spent much of that time in the east.

 

Saruman was supposed to gather knowledge that would be helpful to the war against Sauron. This means ring lore- lots of ring lore. He also needed to learn about orcs and trolls, learn the weaknesses of their enemy, and the best ways to exploit them. This ultimately led to his downfall- as he did research he felt that the war was hopeless. This was due in part to Sauron's influence through the Palantir, but mostly due to his lack of interaction with the other races of Middle Earth. He never saw the strengths of Men, Enves, and Dwarves in the way Gandalf did. He didn't see the immense beauty of nature the way Radagast did. His experience was purely intellectual, and lacked the human element, so to speak.

 

I agree with you that Gandalf's main mission was not to forcefully lead people if he could help it- but indirect intervention and strong advice could have gone a long way to uniting the free peoples. I use an example of the invasion of Rohan in 2758. What if he had been gently prodding the Elves of Lorien and the newly formed Rohirrim to some sort of diplomatic arrangement? This could have easily bloomed into an alliance, and the elves could have come to Rohan's aid when they desperately needed it. 

 

He could have potentially prevented the war altogether, had he helped bridge the gap between the Dunlendings and the Rohirrim in the early days of Rohan. This too would have taken little direct intervention, and mostly would have required him to say the right things to the right people and broker discussion between the two groups.

[Dragonmag170]

OP, have you ever read The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie?

 

I have not. They are on my list, I am getting there. 

[fionwe1987]

I went through half of this, then stopped. Too much that made no sense.

 

The entire wall of text doesn't address that Gandalf spent the 18 years between Bolbo's departure and his return to the Shire hunting Gollum. He's the reason Aragorn found Gollum, and they knew the full history of the ring, and that Sauron knew the name Baggins. Being quite non-idiotic, Gandalf correctly prioritized not letting Sauron find out about the One Ring (if that is what it was), rather than satisfying his own curiosity first.

 

Could he have had the time to take a trip to Gondor? Possibly. And there is, in fact, no hint that he did not. Faramir certainly met him many times, and if the last time he met Gandalf was 18 years ago (when Faramir was 17), nothing in the books suggests it. Gandalf may simply have not had time to do a thorough enough search in those times, and could afford that time only once he knew Golloum was already captured.

 

As for the events in the Hobbit, the explanation is in the Unfinished Tales. As Gandalf tells the Hobbits, he was very worried that the rising power in Dol Guldur would claim the Dragon, and then Smaug would rage over the North, and destroy Rivendell. So he set in motion a two pronged attack. He sent a sneak team to fight Smaug, while he himself pushed the White Council to send Sauron far from Dol Guldur.

 

As for the rest, a lot of this seems to expect Gandalf to just take over. Any overtly heroic act from him would make men worship him, and that was something explicitly forbidden. Nevertheless, he certainly didn't sit on his ass. If he is known for bringing bad news, that implies he has given bad news to the Rohirrim many times. And a large number of Gondorians recognize him on sight, again hardly possible if he just visited a few times.

 

Gandalf's duty was to aid and give hope to the people. Not by directly saving them, but by evoking the best of their abilities. This, he seems to have largely done. From Faramir to Aragorn to Billbo, the very best of the men and Hobbits of the world sought wisdom and comfort from him. His mandate changed after death, which is why you see him be more active.

 

As for his death, he obviously wouldn't have brought a Balrog to Lothlorien, which was the only bulwark against an invasion from Dol Guldur to Gondor. We know that even in the First Age, killing a Balrog was a hugely difficult task for even the mightiest of Elves. Glorfindel died fighting one. As did Ecthelion. Feanor fought five of them, but he too lost his life. Any attack by the Balrog on Lothlorien would have only ended if Galadriel herself came out to fight it, and then she would have been either severely weakened or killed, leaving nothing in the way of the Nazgul led invasion from Dol Guldur.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I readily confess.that I haven't read one word.of.this thread but just wanted to say the title is fabulous.

[Richard Writhen]

Oh emm gee I'm gonna answer your wall of text with an equally corresponding wall of text dood....

 

 

But seriously, how is it that HPS Dumbledore is an aging wizard who is later revealed to be gay, and then almost the same character in LOTR is prolly straight but played by a gay actor? Hmm?